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Turbob15sentra
12-20-2004, 01:05 PM
Just finished up the S14 that we built the S13 SR for last week. I had posted some pics of it here.. After 100 miles of break-in.. I decided to stretch it's leg's. It's got a SC61 on it with .63 A/R exhaust housing and .60 A/R T04E compressor cover. Man.. this thing comes on like a freight train! It's not terribly laggy either. Matter of fact.. it's feels eerily familiar to a GT35R.. maybe 300rpm later.. and the transient response isn't as great. But.. it pulls like a banshee! 17psi on pump gas gets me spinning the 275/50/18" Yokohama's at 60mph. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif I like this turbo.. A LOT. For 650.00, you just can't beat it. Boost comes on strong at 3800rpm or so.. by 4200-4300rpm, in 3rd gear.. it's at 17psi. I wish I could have built a better manifold for this car.. I'm realy impressed with it.. but I'd like to see what it does with a good equal length.

Travis

killjoy
12-20-2004, 01:18 PM
Dyno or track time in the future?

lhoy12
12-20-2004, 04:40 PM
Can ya get a dyno sheet for this? Also, what mods do you have done? Thanks!

Hugh
12-20-2004, 05:26 PM
But I thought if the turbo doesn't spool at idle, then the car can't be fun to drive?? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

JimStinksAtDorifto
12-21-2004, 10:25 AM
Matter of fact.. it's feels eerily familiar to a GT35R.. maybe 300rpm later..Boost comes on strong at 3800rpm or so.. by 4200-4300rpm, in 3rd gear.. it's at 17psi.



um, so a gt35R hits full boost at 4k? I'd like to see that dyno sheet.

MATT_BACK_VASS
12-21-2004, 10:57 AM
try 5300-5500 buddy http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Turbob15sentra
12-21-2004, 12:49 PM
On the 35R.. if you run a E cover.. it will spool at around 4K. If you run the S cover.. it's a LOT more laggy.

Travis

killjoy
12-21-2004, 01:48 PM
Does anybody know exact lbs/min flow of each?

GT3040, GT35R, and GT35R with E cover?

Papa Lazarou
12-21-2004, 07:42 PM
For 650.00, you just can't beat it. Boost comes on strong at 3800rpm or so.. by 4200-4300rpm, in 3rd gear.. it's at 17psi.



Sounds great. And like you said great value for money given the potential. I always thought this turbo was a lot later spooling than that though (and dyno graphs had shown it really taking off above 5000 rpm)? You might have tempted me to give it a shot. Will you be dynoing that at any point soon?

Enthalpy
12-21-2004, 08:11 PM
killjoy..they all flow 65 lb/min.

same compressor...

Enthalpy
12-21-2004, 08:13 PM
On the 35R.. if you run a E cover.. it will spool at around 4K. If you run the S cover.. it's a LOT more laggy.

Travis



travis...

come on now

you know that compressor A/R doesnt effect spool! hell..a larger A/R actually helps the surge region of a compressor.

Full_Race_Geoff
12-22-2004, 10:01 AM
you know that compressor A/R doesnt effect spool! hell..a larger A/R actually helps the surge region of a compressor.



... yeah what he said!! scott is absolutely correct in this instance. there is no reason not to run a larger A/R on the compressor side, except to save space.

killjoy
12-22-2004, 10:11 AM
Good info, keep it coming. I love learning:)

JimStinksAtDorifto
12-22-2004, 12:52 PM
Good info, keep it coming. I love learning:)



yeh, and not to hijack but could somone explain a/r in detail? I've read up on it but I'm lost on visualising it. AFAIK, it is the ratio between the wheel and the housing, kinda of like how much space the wheel takes up inside the housing. higher a/r = larger wheel, given the same housing?

asad
12-22-2004, 01:10 PM
yeh, and not to hijack but could somone explain a/r in detail? I've read up on it but I'm lost on visualising it. AFAIK, it is the ratio between the wheel and the housing, kinda of like how much space the wheel takes up inside the housing. higher a/r = larger wheel, given the same housing?



A/R has nothing to do with the wheel; it's a property solely of the housing (i.e. you can have different A/R housings that fit the same wheel).

Basically if you take the housing, and cut it in half so you're looking at the cross-section, then the "A" refers to the cross sectional area of the volute, or scroll, of the housing, and the "R" refers to the distance from the center (centroid if it's non-circular) of this area to the centerline of the turbo. In any given A/R housing, this ratio is fixed (which is why it makes sense to designate housings by A/R) -- as the volute expands, it gets farther away from the centerline of the turbo to keep the A/R constant.



there is no reason not to run a larger A/R on the compressor side, except to save space.



Ah, but there is a reason to run a smaller A/R -- supposedly smaller compressor A/R's are more efficient at higher boost levels. Now, where exactly the transition occurs, I have no idea.

Asad

JimStinksAtDorifto
12-22-2004, 01:37 PM
Basically if you take the housing, and cut it in half so you're looking at the cross-section, then the "A" refers to the cross sectional area of the volute, or scroll, of the housing, and the "R" refers to the distance from the center (centroid if it's non-circular) of this area to the centerline of the turbo. In any given A/R housing, this ratio is fixed (which is why it makes sense to designate housings by A/R) -- as the volute expands, it gets farther away from the centerline of the turbo to keep the A/R constant.




want to give me some examples with numbers?
ie, the gt25r .64 a/r vs the .86

asad
12-22-2004, 02:12 PM
numbers don't help, drawings do. But I'm too lazy to make drawings for you http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Asad

JimStinksAtDorifto
12-22-2004, 08:51 PM
I have Corky Bell's book but his diagram looks like a nautilus or conch shell.

Amalgam
12-22-2004, 10:22 PM
Found this...doesn't get much simpler, even I understood this.

http://www.ffp-motorsport.com/tuning/tunpics/ar-ratio.jpg

Rodney

JimStinksAtDorifto
12-23-2004, 02:59 PM
wow, that is amazingly simple and is totally different than what I was thinking. thanks!

quest
12-23-2004, 05:40 PM
typical log mani ?
what hot wheel, t31... don't they offer several ? t31, t350, O, P

Papa Lazarou
12-23-2004, 09:53 PM
typical log mani ?
what hot wheel, t31... don't they offer several ? t31, t350, O, P




They offer T350, O and P trim wheels. I would deduce from the mention of a 0.63 a/r housing that this is the T350 version being used.

Kingtal0n
01-02-2005, 07:46 PM
I just picked up an SC61 (T3 flange, top mount) turbo, with enjuku's log manifold / wastegate, and I was planning on selling it, thinking to myself it wasnt what I wanted for my S13 blacktop. But is it? I wonder. If I install this turbo on my blacktop, what can I expect? I am told it supports 400+ horsepower, which is way more than I wanted to begin with, I am primarily concerned with spool..

It has the .64 A/R, I was thinking of trying it with a .48 A/R. Comments?

BlackBomber
01-02-2005, 09:01 PM
I just picked up an SC61 (T3 flange, top mount) turbo, with enjuku's log manifold / wastegate, and I was planning on selling it, thinking to myself it wasnt what I wanted for my S13 blacktop. But is it? I wonder. If I install this turbo on my blacktop, what can I expect? I am told it supports 400+ horsepower, which is way more than I wanted to begin with, I am primarily concerned with spool..

It has the .64 A/R, I was thinking of trying it with a .48 A/R. Comments?



if 400hp is more than your goal, ditch this turbo. compressor supports up to 600ish horsepower. Spool on my buddies 2.0 liter vtech was over 5000rpm and that is with the superior head design of the honda. i don't think you will be too happy with it.

Hugh
01-03-2005, 11:48 AM
So the superior Honda head design will spool a turbo faster than a motor with much mroe torque in the midrange? Last I checked, SR's have a tendency to spool the turbo much faster than Honda.

BlackBomber
01-03-2005, 12:53 PM
So the superior Honda head design will spool a turbo faster than a motor with much mroe torque in the midrange? Last I checked, SR's have a tendency to spool the turbo much faster than Honda.



yeah, didn't really sound like i meant it. but will you admit that the factory honda head is more reliable in higher revs than the factory nissan heads right?

champa
01-03-2005, 02:03 PM
well, the honda head was built for high revs and nissan (sr20det) head was built for FI. your point about honda heads being superior has nothing to do with spooling a turbo on an SR.

hondas has to rev to make power, nissans don't

Kookz
01-03-2005, 02:38 PM
So the superior Honda head design will spool a turbo faster than a motor with much mroe torque in the midrange? Last I checked, SR's have a tendency to spool the turbo much faster than Honda.

Since the typical Honda is a 1.6 or 1.8 liter, yeah, but a 2.0 v. 2.0, I don't think you'll really find much of a difference.

Hugh
01-03-2005, 05:24 PM
But their motors are built for top end. They have to rev that high to see the benefit of such a big turbo. Yes, they will make sick power... and yes, the valvetrain is MUCH better. But, the SR will spool the same turbo quicker and make the same power at less RPM.

_Def_
01-04-2005, 02:46 AM
I agree with Hugh, they seem to always be a bit slower than SRs on spooling up comparable turbos. Of course, when you can rev to 8-9k RPM all day long, I guess a few hundred RPM doesn't matter to them.

They actually go with HUGE turbines for what sized engines they have so that they spool in the 5k RPM range. They usually say it's because a low spooling "punchy" turbo makes getting traction on street tires hopeless.

BlackBomber
01-04-2005, 07:39 AM
when you can rev to 8-9k RPM all day long, I guess a few hundred RPM doesn't matter to them.



yeah, why do a lot of the SR guys redo the valvetrain to get higher revs if they don't need them. converting to lash killer setups, etc.

also, compare apples to apples. Kookz was correct. Were you really comparing a 2.0 liter vtec to the sr20? A more fair comparison would be the b18 to the ca motor right? 1.8 vs 1.8. or the b16 to the 1.6 liter sentra motor.

i'm not a honda advocate, i prefer nissans but they do have some pretty sweet heads. if you could combine them with a nissan block, we might just have the perfect motor.

also, the most power i'm aware of on an SC61 (e-cover compressor with t3 stage 5 turbine wheel) is on a B18 bored to a 2.0 liter. The motor was purchased from our very own VAPOR and made 606whp on 28 psi. That motor was revved time after time during the tuning to 8800 rpm and is a daily driver today. Full boost on that car comes on around 5500 just like it would on an SR.

Kingtal0n
01-04-2005, 11:48 AM
Ok, I think i made a mistake. I am told the turbo is actually SC50, but the compressor wheel is changed for the SC61? So what would I call this turbo? And will it spool any sooner now, knowing that, on my SR20? If not, Would this turbo be a good match to an RB25 instead? I mean after all, easier for me to swap motors than change turbos http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BlackBomber
01-04-2005, 12:00 PM
Ok, I think i made a mistake. I am told the turbo is actually SC50, but the compressor wheel is changed for the SC61? So what would I call this turbo? And will it spool any sooner now, knowing that, on my SR20? If not, Would this turbo be a good match to an RB25 instead? I mean after all, easier for me to swap motors than change turbos http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif



sc50 is more suitable to your power goals. what are the specs on the turbine? don't know about the switch they did though.

Hugh
01-04-2005, 12:11 PM
yeah, why do a lot of the SR guys redo the valvetrain to get higher revs if they don't need them. converting to lash killer setups, etc.



Because horsepower = torque x RPM / 5252

If that doesn't make sense, then try plotting your torque numbers into the formula with a higher RPM (shifting torque curve higher) and see what happens to the horsepower. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

JimStinksAtDorifto
01-04-2005, 05:38 PM
Because horsepower = torque x RPM / 5252




and because a mishift is less likely to kill your motor. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

_Def_
01-05-2005, 03:30 AM
...and lots of people just like to watch the needle swing past 8 on the tach.

BlackBomber
01-05-2005, 07:53 AM
...and lots of people just like to watch the needle swing past 8 on the tach.



yeah it is kind of weird. The stock redline on his tach is like 8200, not to mention the tach is off at those high rpms. so you see this thing making 600whp on the dyno with the tach flying past 9,000 rpm. kind of freaky.

illicon2003
01-06-2005, 10:33 PM
But their motors are built for top end. They have to rev that high to see the benefit of such a big turbo. Yes, they will make sick power... and yes, the valvetrain is MUCH better. But, the SR will spool the same turbo quicker and make the same power at less RPM.




Well B series honda motors are actually much different than the D series (Single cam) honda motors. I made just 5 ft lbs short as I did horsepower on my turbo SOHC vtec. 90mm stroke though on that.

Speaking from everyhthing I've seen in the honda-world..big turbos like the SC61 are pure junk. Sure they make some nice high end power, but high revs=more tendency for a blown motor. The SC61 is very big but the only problem is that it's not fully spooled til 5500-6000. Lots of b series dynos brag about hitting the 300 mark on stock internals (easy to do w/ a big turbo and a nice tune)....but they make like 220ft lbs of torque. That's pathetic if you ask me..car is hardly fun driving.

As for the head design:even though honda's were designed to rev high, won't the SR20DET's sodium filled valves withstand more of a beating and heat, even w/ cams, rocker arms, stoppers, and a bigger rev limiter?

illicon2003
01-06-2005, 10:37 PM
PS: SPeaking from experience......Hondas suck. My friend had a b16crx w/ a jrsc ..it ran like [censored]. In theory it would have been faster than his current ride, an avenir sentra w/ 300/300..but it wasn't. That car ran like [censored].

ANd my single cam d16y8 blew up....I was only boosting 15psi. lasted through a total of 10 gears. wrist pin and rod snapped. 4 holes in the block talk about poop..

_Def_
01-06-2005, 11:06 PM
D series rods are like toothpicks. No wonder it blew on 15 psi. Don't blame the motor though, the limitations are there, and they've been well documented. It's the "econo" engine of Hondas line really. B series aren't really strong in the grand scheme of things, but they're "beefy" compared to a D series.

illicon2003
01-06-2005, 11:19 PM
D series rods are like toothpicks. No wonder it blew on 15 psi. Don't blame the motor though, the limitations are there, and they've been well documented. It's the "econo" engine of Hondas line really. B series aren't really strong in the grand scheme of things, but they're "beefy" compared to a D series.



Yeah. my point is that the car wasn't fast in the least. Number 1, it didn't feel fast at all . It pulled decent I guess... Second...It was probobly pushing about 240-250whp, around equal torque. That's frickin BS. Honda junk!

9591
01-08-2005, 11:00 PM
Speaking from everyhthing I've seen in the honda-world..big turbos like the SC61 are pure junk. Sure they make some nice high end power, but high revs=more tendency for a blown motor. The SC61 is very big but the only problem is that it's not fully spooled til 5500-6000. Lots of b series dynos brag about hitting the 300 mark on stock internals (easy to do w/ a big turbo and a nice tune)....but they make like 220ft lbs of torque. That's pathetic if you ask me..car is hardly fun driving.


SC61 is not the turbo you want if all you're looking for is 300hp, whether you've got a Honda or a Nissan or a whatever. It's a great turbo for 400-450hp+ cars, though, as it spools faster than other comparably priced turbos. We've used them in several Hondas, notably our 510hp Civic which won several local drag events and placed 2nd at the only NHRA event we entered last year (SFWD class).



PS: SPeaking from experience......Hondas suck. My friend had a b16crx w/ a jrsc ..it ran like [censored]. In theory it would have been faster than his current ride, an avenir sentra w/ 300/300..but it wasn't. That car ran like [censored].


Experience? "My friend's car ran like crap". That's not much experience. Somebody didn't know how to tune it, plain and simple.


ANd my single cam d16y8 blew up....I was only boosting 15psi. lasted through a total of 10 gears. wrist pin and rod snapped. 4 holes in the block talk about poop..


Somebody didn't know how to ...


Hondas don't suck, but it seems you might.

illicon2003
01-12-2005, 06:47 PM
SC61 is not the turbo you want if all you're looking for is 300hp, whether you've got a Honda or a Nissan or a whatever. It's a great turbo for 400-450hp+ cars, though, as it spools faster than other comparably priced turbos. We've used them in several Hondas, notably our 510hp Civic which won several local drag events and placed 2nd at the only NHRA event we entered last year (SFWD class).



PS: SPeaking from experience......Hondas suck. My friend had a b16crx w/ a jrsc ..it ran like [censored]. In theory it would have been faster than his current ride, an avenir sentra w/ 300/300..but it wasn't. That car ran like [censored].


Experience? "My friend's car ran like crap". That's not much experience. Somebody didn't know how to tune it, plain and simple.


ANd my single cam d16y8 blew up....I was only boosting 15psi. lasted through a total of 10 gears. wrist pin and rod snapped. 4 holes in the block talk about poop..


Somebody didn't know how to ...


Hondas don't suck, but it seems you might.



Ouch, that really hurt.

Anyways, there are tons of nissan guys making 400+ on gt2871 and gt3071R's. SC61's are such overkill.

Hell, same friend w/ the sentra made like 287 on 15 psi and his the blades on the compressor are messed up.(meaning it wasn't flowing all 33lb's).

The CRX didn't run cause of bad tuning, it ran bad because of all of the stupid fabrication that went along with it. A JRSC for a 99-00 SI on a spec 1 b16a in a CRX, using a b18 LS cable trans, half shafts from an accord? I think. Stuff just didn't match up. I can't remember which pulley it was , I think it was the SC pulley was smashing on the engine bay/fire wall. It was just a mess. Wasn't like this car was jerry rigged either, he paid alot of $$$$ for the swap when his first motor (gsr head/b16 bottom) blew when it was N/a.

Someone didn't know how to do what? Swap in a b -series? Sorry but that wasn't an option.

Funny though too that I'm 19 and a full time college student, and I've only had my civic for a year and a half, and I've already learned most everything there is to know about honda's. They don't make high HP high torque fun daily drivers unless you are willing to spend 15 grand or more.

Be honest w/ yourself.

PS: There's no need for name calling or personal insults

North240
01-12-2005, 09:33 PM
Dont blame Honda blame JR or the installer, as for 15psi on a SOHC Vtec thats a little much 12 is asking for problems. And having a fast honda for under 15 grand is real easy, just checkout plenty of h-t members.

As for D-series being weak, the rods in the SOHC Vtec 1.6 are the same strength as the LS B-series 1.8 rods.

Vapor
01-12-2005, 10:17 PM
Dont blame Honda blame JR or the installer, as for 15psi on a SOHC Vtec thats a little much 12 is asking for problems. And having a fast honda for under 15 grand is real easy, just checkout plenty of h-t members.

As for D-series being weak, the rods in the SOHC Vtec 1.6 are the same strength as the LS B-series 1.8 rods.



negative, they are swap compatible, but not the same by a long shot.

illicon2003
01-12-2005, 11:17 PM
Yeah the LS rods can hold 300hp easy, upwards to 350. SOHC rods hold 240 on a strech.

The CRX was in 2 other shops (3 visits) and it never ran good.

As for people on honda-tech, 1st they lie. Second, most of them spend like 6-8 grand building their motors that end up lasting 6-8 months. That's junk

9591
01-13-2005, 04:01 AM
Ouch, that really hurt.

It wasn't meant to (yes, I know what sarcasm is). It was meant to give you a little nudge, to maybe rethink what you thought you knew. But if I'd known that you were so full of yourself that you'd come back with something like ...



I'm 19 and a full time college student, and I've only had my civic for a year and a half, and I've already learned most everything there is to know about honda's.

... then I wouldnt've even bothered.



Be honest w/ yourself.

Took the words right out of my freakin' mouth.

illicon2003
01-13-2005, 08:08 AM
Allow me to rephrase.

Honda's are cool reliable cars until you start messing around w/ them. Turbo on a factory N/A car will always be less reliable pound for pound than a factory turbo car. Honda's also have death high compression (Especially on the B series motors) and were built for high revving all motor cars. Some noticble differences are lack of oil squirters on all except type R, a factory open deck, agressive cam shafts.

They rarely make any kinda good torque. I made some [censored] numbers but my graph was nice. 153whp 148wtq greddy 15g 7 psi. I held 153whp all the way to redline though, and peak torque hit right around the same time (5k rpm). Unfortunately, once you put a bigger turbo on there, and especially on the b-series motors again, you don't make proportionally as much torque. AS I mighta mentioned above the SOHC have a 90mm stroke which helps keep the TQ high.

They aren't very reliable even built. Since the motor has to be torn apart, and then rebuilt, it leaves alot of room for error. My friends build D16Y8 SOHC Made great power for what it was , and good torque. 8.7 fixed comp, 1 bar GT32R 267 WHP, 243WTQ. 1.6 75.5mm overbore pistons. But then he spun a rod bearing. Had to build a new block, figured he'd do some headwork as well. had his car on the dyno, headgasket was leaking, so he thought he fixed it and came back. It blew in a different place on the dyno and cracked a sleeve. This guy has well over 15 grand into his car and it's off the road most of the time getting fixed. And he hasn't broken 300whp(Not that it's important to shoot for numbers). Can't blame the tuner either since he has it tuned at Inline Pro in Springfield VA, they build pretty much the fastest hondas in the Mid Atlantic Region. They were the first to go 9's I believe in the IDRC, not 1100% sure.
In other words-it's not a fun reliable street car, and it's too damn expensive.
Every other week something breaks-that's not my idea of a good time.

Honda's are cool and I don't 'hate' them, I just hate the headache's they give me and my friends.

Vapor
01-13-2005, 08:38 AM
I am going to try to say this as nice as possible: please stop. Your continued misquoting of facts (like, the GSR has oil squirters, not just type r). It also sounds like whoever is building your motors shouldn't be building your motors. Knowing how to assemble is one thing, but doing things to prevent failure in the future is another. Personally, I've built two B series motors most recently, one does 500hp on pump gas (on a SC61 no less), 606 on race gas, and lives a happy, leak free life, for almost a year now. The other was an Ls VTEC, made 540whp on race gas on a smaller turbo, also lives a happy leak free life now for over a year. Its all in how you build and tune them, just like any other make of car.

North240
01-13-2005, 08:54 AM
negative, they are swap compatible, but not the same by a long shot.


I re-tract my previous statement i must have been misinformed. But as for h-t about 1/2 the members BS but the other 1/2 or even 1/3 are full of usefull knowledge. Honda motors are fine for boost as long as its done correctly, same with the KA.

dorimaster
01-13-2005, 02:42 PM
moderators please kill this thread as these idiots are talking about non-nissan econo crap, that is not even relevant to the thread.

-thanks!

illicon2003
01-13-2005, 04:34 PM
I stand corrected about the oil squirters- pretty sure they are on all B series Vtec motors produced after a certain year.

What's funny is that after he spun the bearing, he had the block decked and the head resurfaced, replaced all bearings (after measuring clearances, mind you), and had the entire bottom end balanced. Bought a new set of head studs and a new headgasket too. And it still blew up. The guy who helped him build it actually works for Nu Image, also Springfield VA..which builds some pretty nice racecars as well. They've got a K swapped insight that is pretty fast.

That's great if you are a super duper engine builder, but you could be lying for all I know. Answer me this, how much torque does your racecar make, at what RPM, and how does it hold it. I'd be REALLY surprised if it made over 350.

A local guy has got a 1st gen talon w/ a big 16g turbo, he runs consistent high 11's on drag radials with stock bottom end. He's making over 400hp on pump gas. Your motor built makes more power, not by much though (to 2 wheels, not 4)and has a much bigger turbo.

Another guy I know has a 300zx, runs consistent high 12's w/o slicks either. Simple bolt ons, boost controller. Which really isn't bad since everyone knows 300's are terrible on the launch.

One time I saw a GSR hatchback w/ boltons and tuning break into the 13's. Once. Most run mid 14's.

The point is, the amount of money invested in the project is always higher w/ a honda in comparison to other cars. And they are much less reliable on an every day street driven basis.

An SC61 is such overkill for a street car...turbo lag sucks.

Vapor
01-13-2005, 05:41 PM
to answer your question, its a street car, not a race car. It even has a/c and power steering. Torque?

http://plaza.ufl.edu/scmason1/jay%20606%20whp.JPG

you can see the link to the post Here (http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1033030) Proof enough?
No? here's the other one:

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wNDQ4MTAyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

this is on a 60-1. Link to the thread link here (http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=905485)

lag on a fwd with 4.40 gear is not really an issue, but some is actually desired. These are both street drag cars, and when you're bouncing off the 2 step building 10lbs at the line, you don't have to worry about lag after that. Both have since run in the 11 and 10 second range.

These are just two examples, there are others out there. Please don't ever question the integrity of my claims ever again. Just because your supposed engine builder cant keep em together, or your supposed tuner can't make hp, doesn't mean thats the end all be all.

illicon2003
01-13-2005, 09:59 PM
Dude, don't take what gets said on a message board to heart man. I'll reiterate-no need to be immature about it. And there's no need for personal name calling or insults.

You won't ever be able to prove to anyone on the internet that it's actually a street car. Not that I even care, since by street car I mean one that gets people to work, school, grocery store, and to the track and back. On an EVERYDAY basis give or take.

Funny though, that your motor is built and this one is stock. You are definitely on some form of advanced EMS, this one is on an AFC. Oh and I'm sure you're on a 3" exhaust too.

http://www.jgycustoms.com/images/bb37rdyno.jpg

And you try to tell me that honda's are comparable in price/reliability? Put it all out on paper, this 240sx made more power reliably w/ less downtime for less money. To date I believe one place has made over 400whp on the dyno w/ a stock bottom end b18c1. Inline pro made 404 w/ just a lower compression headgasket. It lasted 3 dyno runs. It was the pistons that went.

9591
01-14-2005, 06:27 AM
(SC-61 dyno graph later in the post, just so ya know we're not totally OT)



They aren't very reliable even built. Since the motor has to be torn apart, and then rebuilt, it leaves alot of room for error.

Error? If done by "some guy you know" in his driveway, then yeah. If done by somebody that knows what has to be done, then all possible error is eliminated.

Case in point:


My friends build D16Y8 SOHC Made great power for what it was , and good torque. 8.7 fixed comp, 1 bar GT32R 267 WHP, 243WTQ. 1.6 75.5mm overbore pistons. But then he spun a rod bearing. Had to build a new block, figured he'd do some headwork as well. had his car on the dyno, headgasket was leaking, so he thought he fixed it and came back. It blew in a different place on the dyno and cracked a sleeve. This guy has well over 15 grand into his car and it's off the road most of the time getting fixed.

Somebody seriously screwed up, several times. Blame the screwer, not the screwee.



Can't blame the tuner either since he has it tuned at Inline Pro in Springfield VA, they build pretty much the fastest hondas in the Mid Atlantic Region.

I've seen tuning maps from the shop of an NHRA class champion, and they were hilarious. Well, actually, the customer whose maps I saw didn't think they were all that funny. Blame the tuner? Heck yeah! Is Inline Pro any better? Apparently not.

Anyway, that was "old business". "New business" involves your posted dyno graph. Mostly just a few of your comments about it: 390hp, SAFC, reliable. Yeah, you bet. I'm sure you've heard that saying:

Fast, cheap, reliable ... pick two. The one that's missing in your equation is "reliable".

390hp with only an SAFC? Nobody in their right mind would call that reliable.

I present yet another dyno graph. It's a Civic, LS motor, with an SC-61 turbo at 22psi (it's the same one I mentioned earlier that made 510hp, but that printout was just too skanky to scan; it also did 411 ft-lb on that run). Yes, it's built (uhh, $15K ... no). Yes, it's reliable. Over 350 torque: yep; fun to drive on the street: try to wipe the grin off your face.

http://home.earthlink.net/~9591/501.jpg

BlackBomber
01-14-2005, 07:34 AM
You won't ever be able to prove to anyone on the internet that it's actually a street car. Not that I even care, since by street car I mean one that gets people to work, school, grocery store, and to the track and back. On an EVERYDAY basis give or take.




dude, you have no basis for this statement. It is my best friends car and it is one of only two vehicles his family has. He drives EVERY day to work and whereever else he needs to go. It is a truly daily driven car.

Here are some pictures of the car... and you know what we drove it 96 miles to the track that day.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2133742383&code=14024870&mode=inv ite&DCMP=isc-email-AlbumInvite

Vapor
01-14-2005, 02:08 PM
Dude, don't take what gets said on a message board to heart man. I'll reiterate-no need to be immature about it. And there's no need for personal name calling or insults.

You won't ever be able to prove to anyone on the internet that it's actually a street car. Not that I even care, since by street car I mean one that gets people to work, school, grocery store, and to the track and back. On an EVERYDAY basis give or take.

Funny though, that your motor is built and this one is stock. You are definitely on some form of advanced EMS, this one is on an AFC. Oh and I'm sure you're on a 3" exhaust too.

http://www.jgycustoms.com/images/bb37rdyno.jpg

And you try to tell me that honda's are comparable in price/reliability? Put it all out on paper, this 240sx made more power reliably w/ less downtime for less money. To date I believe one place has made over 400whp on the dyno w/ a stock bottom end b18c1. Inline pro made 404 w/ just a lower compression headgasket. It lasted 3 dyno runs. It was the pistons that went.



First off, where did I call you names? I said your builder cant build and your tuner can't tune - those things are obvious. If you're insulted, sorry, but it's true.

Secondly, you continually question the validity of my claims, and I have backed them up 110%. I have been here on this board nearly 4 years. I was a professional in the industry for 7 years. Both of those cars are every bit a complete street car. The more you post, the more you show your ignorance, its as simple as that.

As far as tuning goes, both cars were tuned with reprogrammed ecu's, for about the cost of a PFC complete with tuning. There are cheaper options than those used that are equally as effective.

I have proven, just as many others have, that Hondas can be both fast and reliable. Hell, one of them went 11s on street tires - fwd! Please don't try to call me a liar when I prove my claims that are just a few examples of MANY that have been done the same way. No where did I claim it was cheaper, but for you to say it cannot be done is just flat out wrong.

illicon2003
01-15-2005, 10:30 AM
First off, where did I call you names? I said your builder cant build and your tuner can't tune - those things are obvious. If you're insulted, sorry, but it's true.

Secondly, you continually question the validity of my claims, and I have backed them up 110%. I have been here on this board nearly 4 years. I was a professional in the industry for 7 years. Both of those cars are every bit a complete street car. The more you post, the more you show your ignorance, its as simple as that.

As far as tuning goes, both cars were tuned with reprogrammed ecu's, for about the cost of a PFC complete with tuning. There are cheaper options than those used that are equally as effective.

I have proven, just as many others have, that Hondas can be both fast and reliable. Hell, one of them went 11s on street tires - fwd! Please don't try to call me a liar when I prove my claims that are just a few examples of MANY that have been done the same way. No where did I claim it was cheaper, but for you to say it cannot be done is just flat out wrong.



Vapor,
I honestly can't remember how this started now. Oh yeah SC61 is overkill for a street car, 600hp is useless on the street especially for fwd cause of traction issues. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

I didn't initially notice that I was being double teamed, and wasn't paying attention to the poster's name. I'm not taking anything personal because by insulting people that can clearly do a good job, such as the tuners at inline pro, you are just making yourself look ignorant. You aren't even insulting me.

Never did I say that the motor builds on the SOHC were done fully professional, but he did it per factory service manual minus block notching(obviously), and was helped by a pro mechanic in the process. Anyways, spun bearings are usually an oiling problem anyway, which apparantly are common on high HP d16y8's, but I have no way of knowing this is true. Don't forget the broken differential at the track when he was still on stock internals. Let's agree to disagree.

Maybe it was wrong of me to question the validity of your claims but it's hard to believe what people say on the internet. NEAR EVERYONE claims to have built or know someone w/ a 600whp hatch, or a 500whp s2000, or a 1000whp skyline. You know what I'm talking about. It just gets boring after a while, plus it's fun to see who's lying and who's not.

Thanks for pointing that out about your honda race cars. Had the same 240sx been tuned on a better form of fuel management, it would have made more reliable power, and on stock internals almost as much as the built honda motors. Fact stands-Factory turbo cars have more potential for reliable power pound for pound than honda motors.

Lastly, It was wrong of me to say powerful honda and reliable can't be done. I really should have noted "w/o spending 15 grand or more as a consumer or a customer". Not as a person working at a shop getting a discount on parts and/or who is already a mechanic. Correct me if I'm wrong, but It seems to me that you do work for a shop or at least get the benefits of the people who do. I'm sorry that we were speaking from different point of views.

You know what you are talking about and can for sure build a motor better than I (I guarantee it!).

On a side note, have you ever built a turbo SOHC?

Kingtal0n
01-21-2005, 09:47 AM
Hey, I have another question if no one minds. How about a Log-mounted T3/T4 SC-50 with the .48 A/R on my SR20? I am sending it out to be rebuilt and I was thinking of slapping the .48 on it to help spool and sticking it on my SR. I have a Power FC now, so All i would need is injectors and a MAF.

BlackBomber
01-21-2005, 10:29 AM
Hey, I have another question if no one minds. How about a Log-mounted T3/T4 SC-50 with the .48 A/R on my SR20? I am sending it out to be rebuilt and I was thinking of slapping the .48 on it to help spool and sticking it on my SR. I have a Power FC now, so All i would need is injectors and a MAF.



had a buddy with this setup on an integra ls-vtec and that thing was outrageous. Full boost was like 3600rpm. it was useless on the street with that car because of fwd and wheel spin. Vapor actually tuned that car and it made low-mid 300s on 15psi.

Vapor
01-21-2005, 10:35 AM
Hey, I have another question if no one minds. How about a Log-mounted T3/T4 SC-50 with the .48 A/R on my SR20? I am sending it out to be rebuilt and I was thinking of slapping the .48 on it to help spool and sticking it on my SR. I have a Power FC now, so All i would need is injectors and a MAF.



the enjuku kit is exactly like this, made about 370whp @ 17psi on pump. Stock motor!

Kingtal0n
01-21-2005, 12:15 PM
ah, well I have found myself a new turbo then! what turbo does one of (http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB9&Number=67911017&page= 0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) those come with? We just put that RB25 into a 240, and the turbo looks only slightly bigger than the one on my SR. And It seems to be a "side mount" turbo, Would that turbo bolt to a SR20? It looks like a T-25 flange. I hear different things about them, they have ceramic exhaust wheels, they make good power but the wheel falls out, etc..

VersionS13
01-21-2005, 11:55 PM
Has anyone ever tried the SC32 54 trim before?

BlackBomber
01-22-2005, 07:18 AM
supposedley the 50 trim compressor is a more efficient compressor than both the 54 trim and the 57 trim, even though their power ratings are higher. I don't think a lot of people run them vs. the 50 trim (sc-50).