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jwaters943
02-28-2005, 08:15 PM
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=104808/pageId=62798

The M45 didn't fare so well. I still can't believe Edmunds picked the V6 RL over the V8 M45 (not that the RL is a bad car, just underpowered and not as engaging to drive). Oh well, you can't win 'em all. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif

340HP
02-28-2005, 08:32 PM
2006 Infiniti M45 Sport
The Infiniti is the hot rod of this group. It has the largest and most powerful engine, the largest wheels and tires, the most powerful brakes, the firmest suspension, and it outaccelerates the others like they're tied to a post. It's also the most entertaining to drive, with a transmission that actually matches revs like a good driver does when downshifting a true manual, and a well-balanced chassis that rewards advanced driving technique.

2006 Lexus GS 430
The Lexus carries a base price of $51,125, which makes it almost $2 grand more than the others. But that extra expense is more than justified by traditional Lexus attention to detail and sweet workmanship. The GS 430 is built like a fine watch and runs just as smoothly. Its interior is a wonderful mix of fine leather, rich wood and simplistic design. Its forms may not be as artful as the other two, but the materials used and its ergonomics are far superior.

2005 Acura RL
The Acura's story is value. For the as-tested price of $49,470, the RL comes with such luxuries as a navigation system with voice-command capability, satellite radio, a power sunroof, a power rear sunshade and a premium 10-speaker audio system, all of which cost extra on the Infiniti and the Lexus. And it's the only car in this test with all-wheel drive (the Lexus and Infiniti are rear-wheel drive). - NOT TRUE, BOTH LEXUS AND INFINITI HAVE ALL WHEEL DRIVE OPTIONS.

Some also feel the Acura's interior materials and décor aren't up to the RL's $50,000 price tag, and its seats, which are the softest and least bolstered of the bunch, just aren't sporty enough for a sport sedan.


Lexus Wins a Close One
Here's the reality: Anyone from Tony Stewart to Martha Stewart would be happy owning any one of these three cars. They're all that good. - AGAIN, WOOD, PLASTIC, and QUIET INTERIOR win, rather than the SUPERIOR CAR (M45).

Basically, for all intents and purposes, it was a tie.

Still, on paper, it's the Lexus that comes out on top. Its combination of performance, luxury and astonishing attention to detail cannot be ignored. It's a car worthy of its price premium over the others, and it's a car anyone would be proud to own. But the Acura RL has run a very close second, very close, and the Infiniti M45 Sport a close third. - LEXUS, WITH NO MP3 and AVALON looks. LOL

Geniusjustin
02-28-2005, 08:39 PM
If they were looking for a more refined car, they should have compared apples to apples and used the M45 NON-sport. The wood interior would warm up the ambiance, and the ride would be better. It's like all these auto publications know that Infiniti is absolutely on fire and if they compare equal products well-known names like Lexus will be put to shame!

222Max
02-28-2005, 09:06 PM
It was an Ok comparison.

At least they made it clear that all three are excellent cars. What I don't like about the test is that there was no clear criteria or basis to start with. Were they testing the cars as luxury sport sedans, or just luxury cars, or the best all-around performer?

It makes a difference because if you're looking for the best sports sedan then you expect some feedback and communication from the wheels. Things like best acceleration, braking and handing make a huge impact in the scoring. If it's luxury then other priorities come up. From that standpoint it was a wishy-washy experiment.

Also it's important to note that the Lexus was an impressively optioned model priced as tested at $60,000 while the M was a "stripper", as they called it, priced at $50,000. It did not have the Bose 5.1 audio system. It didn't even have the mid-grade system. It had the base system and lost 3 point because of it. Also, a lot of the rowdy personality which bothered the testers about the M45 sport could be dialed out by going with the non-sport model. If you read the entire test you begin to see that, really, the only thing the Lexus has going for it over the M is the interior detailing, and that's not by much. I could easly see optioning the M out to it's max and getting a car that pretty much kills the GS.

And really, there was no reason given as to how the Acura beat the Infiniti. Oh wait, it was a three-way tie, I forgot. Anyway, this test affirms one thing. Buyers have different priorities as well. Those wanting the most pure driving experience will go for the M45, those wanting a fast car with traditonal Lexus coddling will want the GS, and those wanting quality and value will go RL. There should be more than enough customers for all three of these cars to do very well.

philp
02-28-2005, 09:30 PM
I recently ordered an M35, but I drove the new GS300 and the M35 before making my decision. I never did drive the RL because of its small back seat and generally smaller interior. If the GS300 is at all like the GS430 tested in this review, I found that it was more like driving a high-end Camry with the isolated steering and responsiveness to steering inputs. The interior was well done, but it felt very "enclosed", which I also did not like, whereas the M35 was much more open and roomy. The M35 also handled well with good steering feel and responsivenes, although not to the same level as the BMW 530i I also drove, but much better than the GS300's. I also don't like the touch screen on the GS300 vice the button and control knob on the M35.

The GS300 is a very nice car, and the V6 had enough power to suit me, but I felt like I was driving a very nice sedan, not a sporty luxury car. I could certainly see why some might prefer the Lexus, however.

Jason B
02-28-2005, 10:06 PM
Edmunds has always had something against Infiniti. From all of their reviews combined, it can be clearly seen.

jrock65
02-28-2005, 10:08 PM
I thought that their praise and gripes about each car were pretty fair. The M was the best for sport, the GS was the best for luxury, and the RL had a good combo of both. Apparently, Edmunds likes luxury over sport, so the win went to the GS.

However, this statement just baffles me:

"It's the best sport sedan from Japan in its price range."

How can it be the best "sport" sedan, when it ranked dead last among the 3 in sport? Maybe they meant the best "luxury" sedan in its price range.

One thing, the RL should really have been pitted against the GS300 and the M35, not the V8s.

Also, looks like they tested a fully loaded GS430 vs. a bare bone stock M45 Sport. No wonder the GS got better rankings for features, stereo, and ultimately personal preference.

jrock65
02-28-2005, 10:12 PM
Edmunds has always had something against Infiniti. From all of their reviews combined, it can be clearly seen.



I know what you're saying. I don't think an Infiniti has EVER won an Edmunds comparo. When the G35 came out, they ranked the OLD TL over the G35. Hm....

Hotsauce
02-28-2005, 10:41 PM
Edmunds has always had something against Infiniti. From all of their reviews combined, it can be clearly seen.



I know what you're saying. I don't think an Infiniti has EVER won an Edmunds comparo. When the G35 came out, they ranked the OLD TL over the G35. Hm....



but then it beat out the new TL to win a comparo. About the only comparo Nissan/Infiniti won from Edmunds since Ghosn's takeover, other than the Titan, I believe. The murano lost, FX lost, Altima lost twice, and Quest and Armade I think both placed dead last.

jrock65
02-28-2005, 10:42 PM
When did the G beat the new TL in an Edmunds comparo? Do you have a link?

ZYAL8R808
02-28-2005, 10:48 PM
Who would actually use Edmunds for a test drive comparison anyway. I'd look to MotorTrend, Car and Driver or Road and Track before them.

psteng19
02-28-2005, 11:08 PM
Edmunds has always had something against Infiniti. From all of their reviews combined, it can be clearly seen.



They bashed the new Pathfinder as well http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif

222Max
02-28-2005, 11:31 PM
Third Place: 2006 Infiniti M45 Sport

If your driveway is shaped like the Nurburgring, and your commute includes a few laps of Laguna Seca, your $50,000 should be spent on the 2006 Infiniti M45 Sport. It's the hot rod of the bunch, outaccelerating, outbraking and outhandling the other two with ease.

Great Drivetrain
The M45 Sport, which carries a base price of $50,160, is powered by the best engine and transmission in this test. Its 340-hp, 4.5-liter, double-overhead-cam V8 is as good an engine as you'll find in any sedan anywhere in the world. It provides gobs of low-end torque, it loves to find its 6,800-rpm redline and it's smooth enough to be in a car that costs twice as much. Power delivery, either out on the highway or off the line, is downright explosive.

This is partly due to the Infiniti's five-speed automatic transmission, which is not only the best gearbox in this test, but it's the best automanual we've ever driven. First of all, it's controlled by a perfectly placed and perfectly designed little shifter. It also upshifts more quickly than the transmissions in the other cars and matches revs on the downshifts like a good driver would with a true manual.

At the track, that drivetrain combines with the M's big 19-inch wheels to get the sedan from zero to 60 mph in 5.7 seconds, and through the quarter-mile in 14.4 seconds at 99.6 mph. Quick by anybody's standard.

Likes to Turn
Infiniti backs up that thrust with a firmly tuned suspension and excellent balance. The M45 is built on the newest version of Nissan's Front Midship platform, which also forms the basis for the Nissan 350Z and Infiniti G35 Coupe. It places the engine behind the axle point of the front suspension for improved weight distribution and better handling. The result is a sharper turn-in than you get in the Lexus or the Acura, and a sedan that tackles a mountain road like a car half its size.

Quick steering and a very powerful set of four-wheel disc brakes, which stop the M45 from 60 mph in just 111.9 ft., also make this the car to take on a late-night run up Mulholland. Infiniti has also equipped the M with an active rear-steering system, which attaches an electrically powered actuator to the lower links of the rear suspension and adjusts the rear toe up to 1 degree in either direction depending on speed, yaw angle and whether the car is entering or exiting a corner.

But the best thing about the Infiniti on a curving road is that you can turn off its stability control so a skilled driver can push the car to its maximum. The stability control on the Lexus cannot be disabled, and the Acura's all-wheel-drive system makes it hard for the car to respond to advanced driving techniques.

With its stability system off, the M45 is downright tossable.

Has a Hard Edge
The trade-off for all of this fun is a bit less refinement than is found in the Lexus, and a lot fewer luxuries than the same money gets you in the Acura.

Compared to those cars, the M45 is noisy on the highway, its steering can feel a bit raw around town and its suspension is the only one that crashes over large road irregularities. Our tester, which cost $600 more than the Acura, was also a little light on the luxuries, with no navigation system, no satellite radio and no wood trim. These items cost extra on the Infiniti, but they're standard on the Acura.

With that said, the Infiniti is comfortable enough to drive from Maine to Miami. Its firm seats are infinitely adjustable, universally comfortable and bolstered more heavily than the bucket seats in the Lexus or Acura. Overall, the M's interior is well built and attractive, but its décor can be a bit busy compared to the simpler Lexus. The Infiniti's seats are covered in two kinds of leather; its dash wears two kinds of aluminum trim, plus chrome; and the Infiniti name and logo are embroidered on the seats, which borders on tacky.

We eventually made peace with the orange night lighting of the gauges, but never really got used to the keyboard of buttons and the giant knob that works the climate controls and the trip computer. We do, however, like the way the rocker panels light up at night. Cool touch.

In the End
And so the M45 lands in third place, albeit by just a few points. If its superior driving dynamics and Infiniti-G35-meets-Infiniti-FX45 styling appeal to you, this car can be purchased without shame.

__________________________________________________ _____

So get this. Basically, the M trounces the others in performance.

They're penalizing the M for lack of features versus the RL. Never mind that in this trim you get the V8 versus the RL's V6. They also state that wood trim, which takes the M45 sport down a notch in thier view, costs more. Not so. You can get the all-important wood in the M45 non-sport and actually pay LESS. And I can't for the life of me find where there's two kinds of leather and aluminum in the M as they claim. Sounds like looking for nits to pick.

You also probably get a smoother ride in the M45 base (which should still outhandle the GS and RL) and quieter 18" tires. Plus optioning the M up to the Lexus' 60 grand price gets you all the features of both its competitors and then some. So, like I said. If Edmonds had really compared apples to apples in this test the M probably walks away with the top spot. That is unless that 5% more interior detailing means that much to you.

Steve_L
03-01-2005, 12:07 AM
I think the biggest problem with this that they should have similar optioned vehicles and give extra points for cost (value). Now, this may give the Acura an advantage given it's larger set of standard features, but seems more fair. And given that this is a "sport sedan" comparison, it seems that the sport aspect should be weighted more heavily.

340HP
03-01-2005, 07:35 AM
They're penalizing the M for lack of features versus the RL. Never mind that in this trim you get the V8 versus the RL's V6. They also state that wood trim, which takes the M45 sport down a notch in thier view, costs more. Not so. You can get the all-important wood in the M45 non-sport and actually pay LESS. And I can't for the life of me find where there's two kinds of leather and aluminum in the M as they claim. Sounds like looking for nits to pick.



The only thing that the RL has which the M does not is traffic data (which is practically a toy anyway). And, the RL doesn't have ventilated seats.

The sound system in the M is hands-down the BEST of any car on the road. Can you say dual stereo speakers in seats?

The RL touts 300 horses. Yet with so little torque, it's slow as a camel. No sirreee. Ain't no Honda Accord for me at this price range.

Hemants
03-01-2005, 08:05 AM
Dumb comparison with no insight at all.

They should have compared AWD V6's to each other.

dseag2
03-01-2005, 10:19 AM
The RL touts 300 horses. Yet with so little torque, it's slow as a camel. No sirreee. Ain't no Honda Accord for me at this price range.



I'll enjoy my $50k Honda Accord and you enjoy your $58k Nissan Altima! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

miata007
03-01-2005, 10:53 AM
Just read the review, I feel the people working at Edmunds are bunch of idiots. They say the RL has more features than the base M45, well does it have a RWD V8 like the other two. My friend's 05 TL has more features than a stripped LS430, does that make the TL a better car?

With the Lexus, the car is fully loaded at $60,000 and the M45 is 10k less. What kind of comparision is this? They either need to make all three car the same price or have the same equipments/options.

Lexus has a better interiors and details. That's probably expected by most here. Edmunds also mentioned it has a better steering than the M45. The thing they didn't like is the brakes and the stability system. With two flaw items, how can one declare this to be the best sports sedan out of Japan. I don't see BMW 5 and 3s have such problems.

0-60 for the M45 is a whole second better than the GS. Can you ask Lexus to reduce the time by 1 whole second and see how much extra it will cost?

007

Afty
03-01-2005, 12:13 PM
My favorite quote from the article: "Other bad points [for the RL] are heated seats that toast up quickly but then seem to turn themselves off; odd blue interior lighting, which is a bit too Vegas for us; and interior material quality that is a touch behind the Infiniti and way behind the plush Lexus."

Take that, dash strokers! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

DrewSRX
03-01-2005, 12:13 PM
Edmunds.com and Consumer Reports are about the same IMO.

They appeal to the mass non-enthusiast consumer.

People who read Consumer Reports and Edmunds.com for car reviews should buy a Lexus or Acura. I don't think that they would be happy with an Infiniti or BMW for that matter.

340HP
03-01-2005, 12:47 PM
The RL touts 300 horses. Yet with so little torque, it's slow as a camel. No sirreee. Ain't no Honda Accord for me at this price range.



I'll enjoy my $50k Honda Accord and you enjoy your $58k Nissan Altima! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Actually dseag2, the Altima is a completely different platform than the G / Z / FX / M. The Altima rides on the same platform as the Murano and Maxima.

For the M, the FM platform (front mid-ship) has been strenghtened - 30% more torsional rigidity and 1200% more front lateral rigidity. Yes, that's 1200 percent.

The RL is really an Accord. In fact, in Japan they were showcasing the SHAWD system on the Accord first.

The M is a big brother of the G. Just with more balls. And more bells. And more whistles.

No hard feelings tho. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif The Lexus ES330 and the Avalon are both Camrys with more cotton stuffed in between the doors.

Also, my old man has the new Accord, V6, loaded. My choice really, he had no clue what to get. I also have a TSX. So again, no hard feelings. I was considering the RL too, but with no V8, no AC in the seats, and such a small rear seat, I've convinced myself to go with the M. It really all started with the 300C SRT. Then went to the GS430. I even considered the 545 6MT (but would cringe each time I'd the new M5 with 500 horses and an SMG). Also, the A6. But of all those, barring the M5, my choice now is the M45. I do think that the RL is the nicest looking of all of them. It's very sexy. A far departure from the Lexus-clone it used to be.

Hey, if Catena or Grubbs don't take care of me, maybe I WILL get the RL. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

psteng19
03-01-2005, 12:48 PM
Cross-posting this from another forum for the third time...

The title of the article clearly says "2005-2006 $50K Sport Sedans From Japan Comparison Test" which would lead you to believe the emphasis would be on sport.
No mistake, all three cars are packed with luxury as well but that should not be as heavily weighted if you're going to name the title as above.

It appears that this is what went wrong.
1. Edmunds asks Infiniti for a car to do a $50k sports sedan comparison.
2. Infiniti obliges and gives them the best configuration to fit the bill - M45 Sport at $50k (stripped of all options to not be penalized for exceeding the price limit).
3. Infiniti forgets to pay this month's bill.
4. Midway through the comparison, Edmunds decides to change it to a luxury comparison, but doesn't notify Infiniti and forgets to change the title of their review.
5. Infiniti gets screwed over.


From the outcome of this review, it looks like they wanted more luxury than sport.
Had Infiniti known this earlier, they would've sent the non-Sport and optioned it out with the proper packages to include the oh-so-important wood trim, NAV/XM, and compliant suspension, and won the comparo http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

psteng19
03-01-2005, 12:51 PM
The RL touts 300 horses. Yet with so little torque, it's slow as a camel. No sirreee. Ain't no Honda Accord for me at this price range.



I'll enjoy my $50k Honda Accord and you enjoy your $58k Nissan Altima! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif



I know you're joking and all, but at least make it believable.
The M ain't no Altima, but the RL is an Accord.
Maybe if you call the M a $58k G35.

nasng
03-01-2005, 01:48 PM
Not sure where you got the GS being a second slower in 0 to 60....www.NewCarTestDrive.com has the 0 to 60 at 5.7??? Both a lexus (92 sc400 with 180K miles) and infiniti fan (03 FX45).

miata007
03-01-2005, 02:05 PM
I found the 0-60 time in the Edmunds article. Here is the what they say:

"Zero to 60 mph takes 7.6 seconds in the Acura, and just 6.4 in the Lexus. And the RL's quarter-mile time of 15.8 seconds is way off the pace of the other two cars. When you need speed in the RL, flooring the throttle is almost a necessity. It's never really too slow for any real-world scenario, you just need to be more aggressive with the throttle than you do in the Lexus or Infiniti."
Source: Edmunds

"At the track, that drivetrain combines with the M's big 19-inch wheels to get the sedan from zero to 60 mph in 5.7 seconds, and through the quarter-mile in 14.4 seconds at 99.6 mph. Quick by anybody's standard."
Source: Edmunds

It's actually not a whole second faster but is around .7s base on the info from Edmunds.

007

RandyWatson
03-01-2005, 02:34 PM
I find it shocking the V-6 Acura RL is picked over any V-8 M45. That is a damn shame on Infiniti's part. Those 0-60 times aer way, way off for everyone.

Infiniti has a brand new car that is supposed to shake up the establishment but it can't beat a damn lowly V-6 RL. Shame shame shame.

RandyWatson
03-01-2005, 02:35 PM
Third Place: 2006 Infiniti M45 Sport

If your driveway is shaped like the Nurburgring, and your commute includes a few laps of Laguna Seca, your $50,000 should be spent on the 2006 Infiniti M45 Sport. It's the hot rod of the bunch, outaccelerating, outbraking and outhandling the other two with ease.

Great Drivetrain
The M45 Sport, which carries a base price of $50,160, is powered by the best engine and transmission in this test. Its 340-hp, 4.5-liter, double-overhead-cam V8 is as good an engine as you'll find in any sedan anywhere in the world. It provides gobs of low-end torque, it loves to find its 6,800-rpm redline and it's smooth enough to be in a car that costs twice as much. Power delivery, either out on the highway or off the line, is downright explosive.

This is partly due to the Infiniti's five-speed automatic transmission, which is not only the best gearbox in this test, but it's the best automanual we've ever driven. First of all, it's controlled by a perfectly placed and perfectly designed little shifter. It also upshifts more quickly than the transmissions in the other cars and matches revs on the downshifts like a good driver would with a true manual.

At the track, that drivetrain combines with the M's big 19-inch wheels to get the sedan from zero to 60 mph in 5.7 seconds, and through the quarter-mile in 14.4 seconds at 99.6 mph. Quick by anybody's standard.

Likes to Turn
Infiniti backs up that thrust with a firmly tuned suspension and excellent balance. The M45 is built on the newest version of Nissan's Front Midship platform, which also forms the basis for the Nissan 350Z and Infiniti G35 Coupe. It places the engine behind the axle point of the front suspension for improved weight distribution and better handling. The result is a sharper turn-in than you get in the Lexus or the Acura, and a sedan that tackles a mountain road like a car half its size.

Quick steering and a very powerful set of four-wheel disc brakes, which stop the M45 from 60 mph in just 111.9 ft., also make this the car to take on a late-night run up Mulholland. Infiniti has also equipped the M with an active rear-steering system, which attaches an electrically powered actuator to the lower links of the rear suspension and adjusts the rear toe up to 1 degree in either direction depending on speed, yaw angle and whether the car is entering or exiting a corner.

But the best thing about the Infiniti on a curving road is that you can turn off its stability control so a skilled driver can push the car to its maximum. The stability control on the Lexus cannot be disabled, and the Acura's all-wheel-drive system makes it hard for the car to respond to advanced driving techniques.

With its stability system off, the M45 is downright tossable.

Has a Hard Edge
The trade-off for all of this fun is a bit less refinement than is found in the Lexus, and a lot fewer luxuries than the same money gets you in the Acura.

Compared to those cars, the M45 is noisy on the highway, its steering can feel a bit raw around town and its suspension is the only one that crashes over large road irregularities. Our tester, which cost $600 more than the Acura, was also a little light on the luxuries, with no navigation system, no satellite radio and no wood trim. These items cost extra on the Infiniti, but they're standard on the Acura.

With that said, the Infiniti is comfortable enough to drive from Maine to Miami. Its firm seats are infinitely adjustable, universally comfortable and bolstered more heavily than the bucket seats in the Lexus or Acura. Overall, the M's interior is well built and attractive, but its décor can be a bit busy compared to the simpler Lexus. The Infiniti's seats are covered in two kinds of leather; its dash wears two kinds of aluminum trim, plus chrome; and the Infiniti name and logo are embroidered on the seats, which borders on tacky.

We eventually made peace with the orange night lighting of the gauges, but never really got used to the keyboard of buttons and the giant knob that works the climate controls and the trip computer. We do, however, like the way the rocker panels light up at night. Cool touch.

In the End
And so the M45 lands in third place, albeit by just a few points. If its superior driving dynamics and Infiniti-G35-meets-Infiniti-FX45 styling appeal to you, this car can be purchased without shame.

nasng
03-01-2005, 02:36 PM
Do you believe what Edmunds says?? LOL..here is what www.NewCarTestDrive.com (http://www.NewCarTestDrive.com) states about the GS..

"Throw in a six-speed automatic that is so smooth as to seem one continuous gear, and there's little to do except sit back and enjoy the ride. At its most fuel deficient, the GS 430 jets from 0 to 60 mph in just 5.7 seconds, with the driver's chief sensation simply the rapid change of view outside the windows."


Again not pro-lexus, but lets look at the facts.
http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

340HP
03-01-2005, 02:49 PM
Who cares.

I'm getting the M45. And I'll smoke a few GS's and RL's before my lease is up.

http://grid5.com/smiley1.jpg

nasng
03-01-2005, 03:12 PM
Smoke..is pushing it....m45 0 to 60 5.6, GS430 5.7..drove the M45..will need to drive the GS to compare

BTW Nice SMILE!!!!!

340HP
03-01-2005, 03:23 PM
Thanks for the smilie..

As for the M45, was it sport? I believe it's faster than stock.

Then again, it depends on the driver. I use manumatic a lot. I learned on a clutch and my first car was a clutch (Talon TSI).

222Max
03-01-2005, 03:55 PM
Well, taken for what it is The Edmonds test is one of many to come. And don't forget that the M35 handily whipped everything it was tested against, including the RL, in Moter Trend. So you can either make a lot of this or you don't. Pretty soon the real car mags will test the M against the GS, (and maybe even the RL) and we'll start to get a concensus as to which is the best Japanese SPORT sedan.

It still find it pretty laughable that the RL racked up points in number of cupholders and storage space. There are so many ways to look at this if you carefully examine the editors scores. The M is the best performer but is also the most comfortable for driver, front seat passenger as well as rear seat comfort... that is if Edmonds has any credibility to you.

One thing is becoming real clear about Infiniti and the M. This car seems born to run in Europe where it's driving dynamics will be more important. This is probably the perfect car to introduce the Infiniti brand to the continent.

nasng
03-01-2005, 03:57 PM
Yes it was sport..and yes it was VERY fast..used stick as well..cornering was awesome!! Fun to drive!!!!

D_Nyholm
03-01-2005, 04:23 PM
It looks as though the M is positioned much more toward sport than the other ones. Each person is going to find their likes/dislikes about it. For what I am looking for, Sport is pretty high up on the list. I would not even look at the RL, the GS is pretty sweet though, I am not looking at spending $60K on a car...more in the low $50K range. I don't think the GS is worth $60K by my means and needs. I think if the GS was the same price as the M, I would look at it, but probably still end up with the M in the end.

To each their own...if people buy based on reviews then they should be driving a car that doesn't fit their needs!!!

dseag2
03-01-2005, 04:28 PM
The RL touts 300 horses. Yet with so little torque, it's slow as a camel. No sirreee. Ain't no Honda Accord for me at this price range.



I'll enjoy my $50k Honda Accord and you enjoy your $58k Nissan Altima! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif



Actually dseag2, the Altima is a completely different platform than the G / Z / FX / M. The Altima rides on the same platform as the Murano and Maxima.

For the M, the FM platform (front mid-ship) has been strenghtened - 30% more torsional rigidity and 1200% more front lateral rigidity. Yes, that's 1200 percent.

The RL is really an Accord. In fact, in Japan they were showcasing the SHAWD system on the Accord first.

The M is a big brother of the G. Just with more balls. And more bells. And more whistles.

No hard feelings tho. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif The Lexus ES330 and the Avalon are both Camrys with more cotton stuffed in between the doors.

Also, my old man has the new Accord, V6, loaded. My choice really, he had no clue what to get. I also have a TSX. So again, no hard feelings. I was considering the RL too, but with no V8, no AC in the seats, and such a small rear seat, I've convinced myself to go with the M. It really all started with the 300C SRT. Then went to the GS430. I even considered the 545 6MT (but would cringe each time I'd the new M5 with 500 horses and an SMG). Also, the A6. But of all those, barring the M5, my choice now is the M45. I do think that the RL is the nicest looking of all of them. It's very sexy. A far departure from the Lexus-clone it used to be.

Hey, if Catena or Grubbs don't take care of me, maybe I WILL get the RL. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif



No. No hard feelings. I may very well be the proud owner of an M myself before the end of the year. Just wanted you to know I was paying attention! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

222Max
03-01-2005, 04:42 PM
It looks as though the M is positioned much more toward sport than the other ones. Each person is going to find their likes/dislikes about it. For what I am looking for, Sport is pretty high up on the list. I would not even look at the RL, the GS is pretty sweet though, I am not looking at spending $60K on a car...more in the low $50K range. I don't think the GS is worth $60K by my means and needs. I think if the GS was the same price as the M, I would look at it, but probably still end up with the M in the end.

To each their own...if people buy based on reviews then they should be driving a car that doesn't fit their needs!!!



I think the M perfectly reflects what Infiniti is all about. Infiniti IS the BMW of Japan. I'm glad we have both Lexus and Infiniti. Rivalry is good and now that Lexus is puttting more passion into thier cars a very interesting rivarly can develop. It's the same kind of arms race which keeps MB and BMW honest.

RandyWatson
03-01-2005, 04:49 PM
It looks as though the M is positioned much more toward sport than the other ones. Each person is going to find their likes/dislikes about it. For what I am looking for, Sport is pretty high up on the list. I would not even look at the RL, the GS is pretty sweet though, I am not looking at spending $60K on a car...more in the low $50K range. I don't think the GS is worth $60K by my means and needs. I think if the GS was the same price as the M, I would look at it, but probably still end up with the M in the end.

To each their own...if people buy based on reviews then they should be driving a car that doesn't fit their needs!!!



I think the M perfectly reflects what Infiniti is all about. Infiniti IS the BMW of Japan. I'm glad we have both Lexus and Infiniti. Rivalry is good and now that Lexus is puttting more passion into thier cars a very interesting rivarly can develop. It's the same kind of arms race which keeps MB and BMW honest.


Without manuals, Infiniti is no closer than Acura to being a Japanese BMW, no matter what they want you to believe. And no matter what some say, its is disapointing to see the new M come in last to the other 2 cars. Some were really looking for this car to sweep everyone off its feet in every comparison.

And enough of the "it was not fitted" crap. If it was a non M45 sport, you would complain it should have been a M45 sport. If it was 60k, some would have stated it should have been 51k and blah blah blah.

It looks like Lexus, again, somehow does it, builds the best in class if we like it or not.

jwaters943
03-01-2005, 05:03 PM
Smoke..is pushing it....m45 0 to 60 5.6, GS430 5.7..drove the M45..will need to drive the GS to compare




How can you take acceleration times from two different reviews by two different drivers and make a legitimate comparison? You know nothing of the testing conditions (weather, humidity, altitude, etc.) The new M45 has routinely run 0-60 in 5.3-5.6 seconds. The Edmunds review had the slowest time I've seen published for all 3 cars. All things being equal, I'd say the M45 is roughly .5 seconds quicker to 60 than the GS430.

SHIFT_6speeds
03-01-2005, 05:06 PM
BTW Nice SMILE!!!!!



yeah, that's one SH!T-eatin' grin if I've ever seen one!

jwaters943
03-01-2005, 05:19 PM
RandyWatson,

You really have no credibility. Why do you even come here? Oh yeah, that's right....to stir the pot!

Here's a newsflash for you....NO CAR WINS EVERY SINGLE COMPARISON TEST, NO MATTER HOW GOOD IT IS. Even those built by your newfound object of affection, Lexus. I'm sorry you didn't get what you wanted for your FX45 when you sold it. I'm also sorry that you felt the ride quality was too harsh. Get over it already. I bet you haven't even driven the new M35/45 and yet here you are talking about what a disappointment it is. Do you base all your feelings/opinions on a car on reviews alone?

222Max
03-01-2005, 05:23 PM
Without manuals, Infiniti is no closer than Acura to being a Japanese BMW, no matter what they want you to believe. And no matter what some say, its is disapointing to see the new M come in last to the other 2 cars. Some were really looking for this car to sweep everyone off its feet in every comparison.

And enough of the "it was not fitted" crap. If it was a non M45 sport, you would complain it should have been a M45 sport. If it was 60k, some would have stated it should have been 51k and blah blah blah.

It looks like Lexus, again, somehow does it, builds the best in class if we like it or not.



It was one test. There will be others. If it fails in those then you can spell doom for the M. And whether YOU like it or not the M blasted them both on the track which is where cars like BMW do thier talking. And it DOES matter how the cars were equiped when the testers take off points for lack of features. Dig it.

So I guess this test TOTALLY invalidates the Motor Trend test. But I guess it's your job in exaggerate any downside of Infiniti isn't it.

As for the RL. well even these testers know that numerical points were the final factor. So shut-it with all the RL, beats the M crap.

"The Acura was never a contender. It was forgettable before and only slightly less so now. Its all-wheel-drive system is impressive, allowing you to keep pace with cars that should be faster, but the overall driving experience remains sterile. The interior has some style and the stereo will split your eardrums open like a coconut, but my enthusiasm just wasn't there. Same goes for the exterior styling."

That's from one of the senior editors who tested the cars.

This little test from Edmonds was amusing. That's that's all. I'll wait on Car and Driver, Road and Track and Automobile to weigh in on the issue. If the M gets bested in thier evaluations then I'll be worried.

Jason B
03-01-2005, 05:48 PM
Ok everyone, this thread is headed down the wrong path, I can see it.

This is only one review of many. There will be many more and this will be a part of the past. Everyone has their own opinion, but lets keep it civilized.

tjpyles
03-01-2005, 06:02 PM
Without manuals, Infiniti is no closer than Acura to being a Japanese BMW, no matter what they want you to believe. And no matter what some say, its is disapointing to see the new M come in last to the other 2 cars. Some were really looking for this car to sweep everyone off its feet in every comparison.




As someone who has owned both vehicles: 2000 BMW 530i and a two day old M45 Sport. I will strongly disagree that this is not the "Japanese BMW". I will admit that I only have two days of driving under my belt with the M, but so far I have found it to be every bit as pleasing and fun to drive as the BMW 5 series. As a matter of fact, I find that the M is exceeding my BMW experience in several ways. I was hesitant at first to swith from BMW to Infiniti, but after several test drives and a lot of research, I took the plunge. I am exceedingly happy with my decision. Another quick observation - this really wasn't even a money issue, I had been comparing this car to the new 545i and would have gladly paid the difference if I thought I was getting a better vehicle. After much consideration I found that the M45 Sport met my criteria of the "better car." I know some may strongly disagree with me, but I have owned both now and am happy with my decision.

jrock65
03-01-2005, 06:18 PM
It looks as though the M is positioned much more toward sport than the other ones. Each person is going to find their likes/dislikes about it. For what I am looking for, Sport is pretty high up on the list. I would not even look at the RL, the GS is pretty sweet though, I am not looking at spending $60K on a car...more in the low $50K range. I don't think the GS is worth $60K by my means and needs. I think if the GS was the same price as the M, I would look at it, but probably still end up with the M in the end.

To each their own...if people buy based on reviews then they should be driving a car that doesn't fit their needs!!!



I think the M perfectly reflects what Infiniti is all about. Infiniti IS the BMW of Japan. I'm glad we have both Lexus and Infiniti. Rivalry is good and now that Lexus is puttting more passion into thier cars a very interesting rivarly can develop. It's the same kind of arms race which keeps MB and BMW honest.


Without manuals, Infiniti is no closer than Acura to being a Japanese BMW, no matter what they want you to believe. And no matter what some say, its is disapointing to see the new M come in last to the other 2 cars. Some were really looking for this car to sweep everyone off its feet in every comparison.

And enough of the "it was not fitted" crap. If it was a non M45 sport, you would complain it should have been a M45 sport. If it was 60k, some would have stated it should have been 51k and blah blah blah.

It looks like Lexus, again, somehow does it, builds the best in class if we like it or not.



Are you smoking something? No closer than Acura huh? Acura doesn't even have a RWD vehicle other than the NSX.

So an internet site rates the GS over the M, and it is established that it is the best?

Well, since Motortrend ranked a base, non-Sport M35 over the RL, and Edmunds ranked the RL over the M45 Sport, that means that the base, non-Sport M35 is a better than the M45 Sport. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

RandyWatson
03-01-2005, 06:23 PM
I don't see how Infiniti can be the Japanese BMW when the lineup is so inconsisent. What is the QX56? The Q45? Yes, the G models are sporty but no matter how sporty the M35/45 are NO MANUAL is offered, like a RL or a A6 or GS. So how BMW can it be?
That is what makes BMW, BMW, manuals, no matter how few buy them.
And yes, Infiniti is sporty with the new car but BMW? No way.

Steve_L
03-01-2005, 06:45 PM
I don't see how Infiniti can be the Japanese BMW when the lineup is so inconsisent. What is the QX56? The Q45? Yes, the G models are sporty but no matter how sporty the M35/45 are NO MANUAL is offered, like a RL or a A6 or GS. So how BMW can it be?
That is what makes BMW, BMW, manuals, no matter how few buy them.
And yes, Infiniti is sporty with the new car but BMW? No
way.



I think you're overly focused on what defines BMW. It isn't the manual shifter. Lots of other cars have manuals, does this make Kia the Korean BMW? If you ask most people what defines BMW. It's a combination of luxury and sport with the emphasis on sport. Compared to Lexus and Mercedes where the focus is on luxury first, then sport.

aas5
03-01-2005, 06:55 PM
I don't see how Infiniti can be the Japanese BMW when the lineup is so inconsisent. What is the QX56? The Q45? Yes, the G models are sporty but no matter how sporty the M35/45 are NO MANUAL is offered, like a RL or a A6 or GS. So how BMW can it be?
That is what makes BMW, BMW, manuals, no matter how few buy them.
And yes, Infiniti is sporty with the new car but BMW? No
way.



I think you're overly focused on what defines BMW. It isn't the manual shifter. Lots of other cars have manuals, does this make Kia the Korean BMW? If you ask most people what defines BMW. It's a combination of luxury and sport with the emphasis on sport. Compared to Lexus and Mercedes where the focus is on luxury first, then sport.



I agree with that. BMW offers a great driving experience and M is very similar in that it emphasizes sport. I am saying this not based on what magazines write and others say but based on how both cars make me feel when I drive. Luxury, while very important, should always be a secondary part of this equation in this case. It's not like you can honestly say that BMW is always better than Lexus, both are very different and have very different appeal. But Infiniti is probably the closest of Japanses cars to provide the driving experience similar to BMW.

jrock65
03-01-2005, 07:08 PM
Yes, Infiniti is not as "BMW" as BMW. But yes, it is much more "BMW" like than Acura.

222Max
03-01-2005, 09:14 PM
Or Lexus. But that's Ok. People buy Lexus because it's a Lexus. It's getting to be that people will buy Infiniti because it;s an Infiniti.

psteng19
03-01-2005, 10:06 PM
I don't see how Infiniti can be the Japanese BMW when the lineup is so inconsisent. What is the QX56? The Q45? Yes, the G models are sporty but no matter how sporty the M35/45 are NO MANUAL is offered, like a RL or a A6 or GS. So how BMW can it be?
That is what makes BMW, BMW, manuals, no matter how few buy them.
And yes, Infiniti is sporty with the new car but BMW? No
way.



I think you're overly focused on what defines BMW. It isn't the manual shifter. Lots of other cars have manuals, does this make Kia the Korean BMW? If you ask most people what defines BMW. It's a combination of luxury and sport with the emphasis on sport. Compared to Lexus and Mercedes where the focus is on luxury first, then sport.



Well put.
Especially since most 5 series sold are overwhelming in favor of automatics anyway.

psteng19
03-01-2005, 10:12 PM
Without manuals, Infiniti is no closer than Acura to being a Japanese BMW, no matter what they want you to believe. And no matter what some say, its is disapointing to see the new M come in last to the other 2 cars. Some were really looking for this car to sweep everyone off its feet in every comparison.




As someone who has owned both vehicles: 2000 BMW 530i and a two day old M45 Sport. I will strongly disagree that this is not the "Japanese BMW". I will admit that I only have two days of driving under my belt with the M, but so far I have found it to be every bit as pleasing and fun to drive as the BMW 5 series. As a matter of fact, I find that the M is exceeding my BMW experience in several ways. I was hesitant at first to swith from BMW to Infiniti, but after several test drives and a lot of research, I took the plunge. I am exceedingly happy with my decision. Another quick observation - this really wasn't even a money issue, I had been comparing this car to the new 545i and would have gladly paid the difference if I thought I was getting a better vehicle. After much consideration I found that the M45 Sport met my criteria of the "better car." I know some may strongly disagree with me, but I have owned both now and am happy with my decision.



Thank you for a impartial review.

340HP
03-01-2005, 10:21 PM
I was glad to see a manual tranny in the G series. Perhaps if enough interest arises, the M could get one too. It IS the same FM platform after-all.

Shouldn't be that hard to do an after-market swap of transmissions either. If you own the car (not lease) you should be able to swap the slush-box for a 6-speed. Especially the one from the Z.

Now THAT's a thought..

CODYTM45
03-01-2005, 11:16 PM
Ok guys, all this 2005 Acura RL to M comparisions aside, I just traded my 2005 RL which I have owned since October 20th in on a M45 Sport, Journey, Tech, MES and hopefully a Aero Kit. I had the RL for 10k miles and I enjoyed everyone of them till I drove the M35x and then the M45 Sport. The M45 Sport is awesome and the M35x, in my opinion is a better car for the money than the Acura RL. THe RLs AWD is a better system, but the engine in the G35x is a much better V6. But the V8 is what swayed me to trade my RL in.

Steve_L
03-02-2005, 12:06 AM
In the end, I think it depends on whether you enjoy the ride or enjoy the drive.

SukairainKupe
03-02-2005, 12:22 AM
Without manuals, Infiniti is no closer than Acura to being a Japanese BMW, no matter what they want you to believe. ........



Acura - FF + FF based AWD
Infiniti - FR + FR based AWD

We don't have the time nor energy to explain to you the fundemental differences. If you like the Acura or Lexus, good for you. I don't think the M35/45 would win every comparison test either - for example: If the reviewers are looking for a 'comfortable sedan,' an Avalon would probably beat the M. All three are very nice cars, but if you are not care for the SPORT in SPORT SEDAN, then you probably wouldn't appreciate the M in the first place.

Infiniti G35 vs Acura TL
Infiniti M35 vs Acura RL

Same comparison really~ Do you want a luxury car with somewhat sporty suspension?, or luxurious interior in a sporty car? Can't tell the difference? Then do yourself a favor and buy the Acura.

cybersol
03-02-2005, 02:53 AM
The part of the Edmunds review that focuses on the lack of value in the M35/M45 is a misrepresentation of the truth that borders on a complete journalistic fabrication. As a source of factual automotive information, Edmunds should do some fact checking regarding the truthfulness of their assertions. Any apples to apples price comparison of an M35/45 built to your specifications will be cheaper with equal or better options to the RL and GS. (Power rear sunshade being the only exception since Infiniti only included that in the 10k premium package for no good reason).

While the Edmunds editors may have preferred a well-equipped 6-cylinder as a better value than a entry level 8-cylinder, implying that this makes the RL a better value completely ignores the fact that a well equipped M35 exists. Add the fact the M35 AWD similarly equipped to the RL costs $1500 less and Edmunds is clearly distorting the truth. A lie of omission this large is inexcusable from a trusted source of automotive information.

I still love the forums at Edmunds. However, I used to regret that Edmunds comparison tests are much less frequent now than 3-4 years ago. After seeing this deceptive comparison, I think Edmunds should leave the comparisons up to the professionals.

Enceladus
03-02-2005, 04:36 AM
The part of the Edmunds review that focuses on the lack of value in the M35/M45 is a misrepresentation of the truth that borders on a complete journalistic fabrication. As a source of factual automotive information, Edmunds should do some fact checking regarding the truthfulness of their assertions. Any apples to apples price comparison of an M35/45 built to your specifications will be cheaper with equal or better options to the RL and GS. (Power rear sunshade being the only exception since Infiniti only included that in the 10k premium package for no good reason).

While the Edmunds editors may have preferred a well-equipped 6-cylinder as a better value than a entry level 8-cylinder, implying that this makes the RL a better value completely ignores the fact that a well equipped M35 exists. Add the fact the M35 AWD similarly equipped to the RL costs $1500 less and Edmunds is clearly distorting the truth. A lie of omission this large is inexcusable from a trusted source of automotive information.

I still love the forums at Edmunds. However, I used to regret that Edmunds comparison tests are much less frequent now than 3-4 years ago. After seeing this deceptive comparison, I think Edmunds should leave the comparisons up to the professionals.


Well put.

CODYTM45
03-02-2005, 07:36 AM
That was my point exactly. when you look at the fact that I am very willing to spend an extra 10k for a V8 and true Sport suspension, then my personal choice is clearly the M45 over the RL. If you are comparing value between the M45 and RL, I don't think the 10k is made up, so the RL wins. However it isn't really a fair comparison. To really compare, compare the M35x against the RL and I think in that comparison the M35x would clearly win on value. Motor Trend thought that as well in their Six Degrees of Separation comparison.

RandyWatson
03-02-2005, 11:06 AM
Whoa, the M45 in not a bad car at all. Just disappointed it lost to a V-6 RL, I don't care who tested it. And who sends the cars to get tested anyway? Do they request them? It seems Infiniti is sending base models to test in all the comparisons not trying to scare people away from the price.

222Max
03-02-2005, 11:29 AM
Whoa, the M45 in not a bad car at all. Just disappointed it lost to a V-6 RL, I don't care who tested it. And who sends the cars to get tested anyway? Do they request them? It seems Infiniti is sending base models to test in all the comparisons not trying to scare people away from the price.



That's a fair point because I think Infiniti sent the wrong car for this comparison. The best car would have been the M45 base with Journey and Technology packages. Then it would have essentially then been the M shooting it out with the GS.

psteng19
03-02-2005, 12:10 PM
Whoa, the M45 in not a bad car at all. Just disappointed it lost to a V-6 RL, I don't care who tested it. And who sends the cars to get tested anyway? Do they request them? It seems Infiniti is sending base models to test in all the comparisons not trying to scare people away from the price.



That's a fair point because I think Infiniti sent the wrong car for this comparison. The best car would have been the M45 base with Journey and Technology packages. Then it would have essentially then been the M shooting it out with the GS.



No it is not fair at all if you look at the reasons why the M45 lost to a V6 RL.

The M45 lost points due to features and content that were not equipped in their tester, but are AVAILABLE OPTIONS.

The M45 lost points because the ride of sport model was not as cushy as the one in the RL, but a cushier ride is AVAILABLE in non-sport M45/M35.

The RL did NOT lose points for not having a V8 as an option. It only lost points in the performance department.

If the M45 can lose points for not having options in their tester, the RL should definitely lose points for not even having a V8 available in any configuration, since all of its competition offers a V8 (STS, M, GS, A6, 5 series, E class).

psteng19
03-02-2005, 12:14 PM
Ok guys, all this 2005 Acura RL to M comparisions aside, I just traded my 2005 RL which I have owned since October 20th in on a M45 Sport, Journey, Tech, MES and hopefully a Aero Kit. I had the RL for 10k miles and I enjoyed everyone of them till I drove the M35x and then the M45 Sport. The M45 Sport is awesome and the M35x, in my opinion is a better car for the money than the Acura RL. THe RLs AWD is a better system, but the engine in the G35x is a much better V6. But the V8 is what swayed me to trade my RL in.



Really, you found the SH-AWD to be better than ATTESA-ETS?

biggstuu
03-02-2005, 02:54 PM
guys wouldnt it make sense to post your concerns about this "unfair" "biased" comparo over at the forums on edmunds? i appreciate the passion, it shows that people are excited and concerned about the performance of this vehicle (literally and figuratively), but lets put these posts where it'll matter, and get edmunds to properly evaluate the vehicle despite their alleged anti-infiniti bias.

biggstuu
03-02-2005, 03:01 PM
Just did some reading on edmunds and this is an exact qoute from a reviewer of the M on 02/07/05:

"There are prettier cars than the Infiniti M35 and M45 sedans. There are quicker cars. And cheaper cars. And there are more luxurious cars, too. But never all at once. And that's the point. That's how you win comparison tests."

So what the hell happened? Send your concerns to editorsIL@edmunds.com and raise your concerns.

222Max
03-02-2005, 03:13 PM
I really think what's done is done. This is one of many reviews and comparisons of many to come. In fact, this is one of the more minor sources to go by. It's true that it's a sloppy test, but it's Edmunds. For better or worse they are only a notch above Consumer Reports to anyone who is a car nut. They picked the winner for the average consumer... not the enthusiast.

I'll wait on the enthusiast mags to have a shoot-out between these cars. It will be more credible as far as I'm concerened.

CODYTM45
03-02-2005, 03:26 PM
yes the handling on the RL was outstanding considering the wheels and tires on that car and the weight. Just check out the slalom speeds. The RL is right with the M45 Sport which has rear steer and 19" tires/wheels and a sport suspension. The RL wins on the skidpad even with non-sport tires and 17" wheels. That is all due to the the right/left torque split in the rear.

222Max
03-02-2005, 03:41 PM
I was just noticing the measurements they posted for the cars. Can the GS be as snug in the rear as the measurements they show? It has over 3 inches less rear legroom than the M and over 2 less than the RL. I don't remember the GS being that tight in the back when I saw it.

No wait, it ISN'T that small according to Lexus' website. The GS has 36.4" rear legroom. A bit of that other data is wrong for for the other cars as well. That should tell you something about Edmunds' facts.

InfiniD
03-02-2005, 05:34 PM
Whoa, the M45 in not a bad car at all. Just disappointed it lost to a V-6 RL, I don't care who tested it. And who sends the cars to get tested anyway? Do they request them? It seems Infiniti is sending base models to test in all the comparisons not trying to scare people away from the price.

You don't care who tested it? Have you considered the supidity involved in that statement. Apparently not. It says 50K sport sedan comparison. That's what Infiniti sent. Their sportiest version for 50K. As it turns out that's not what they were testing for. I think a fully loaded M35X would have walked away with this comparison test. They didn't really care how sporty the car was. The M35X performs on the level of the other cars and has more equipment than either one. I think Infiniti can get back at Edmunds though. The next time they have a 20K sport coupe comparison, they should just send a G35 coupe. It's 10 grand more but from this review that shouldn't matter. I just read this review again and it contradicts itself over and over. I think Edmunds should be banned from any further comparison testing. They are clearly incompetent.

psteng19
03-02-2005, 06:28 PM
I was just noticing the measurements they posted for the cars. Can the GS be as snug in the rear as the measurements they show? It has over 3 inches less rear legroom than the M and over 2 less than the RL. I don't remember the GS being that tight in the back when I saw it.

No wait, it ISN'T that small according to Lexus' website. The GS has 36.4" rear legroom. A bit of that other data is wrong for for the other cars as well. That should tell you something about Edmunds' facts.



They said the Frontier had 234 ft-lbs of torque when it actualy has 284 ft-lbs.

TwinTurboZX
03-02-2005, 08:34 PM
Does anybody actually make their buying decision based on ANY of these publications' reviews. It's obvious the reviews go to the highest bidder and we all know how deep toyota's pockets are.

VarianceJ30
03-02-2005, 08:44 PM
Does anybody actually make their buying decision based on ANY of these publications' reviews. It's obvious the reviews go to the highest bidder and we all know how deep toyota's pockets are.



Well, if car companies bother to pay publications to give them favorable outcomes, there must be people out there who base their buying decisions on magazine reviews (misguided as that is). Otherwise, why bother paying them?

340HP
03-02-2005, 08:45 PM
The reviews help. But in the end, a car is a car is a car. Once you see it, feel it, drive it, you'll make your own "educated" conclusions.

ScottG61376
03-02-2005, 10:58 PM
I was just noticing the measurements they posted for the cars. Can the GS be as snug in the rear as the measurements they show? It has over 3 inches less rear legroom than the M and over 2 less than the RL. I don't remember the GS being that tight in the back when I saw it.

No wait, it ISN'T that small according to Lexus' website. The GS has 36.4" rear legroom. A bit of that other data is wrong for for the other cars as well. That should tell you something about Edmunds' facts.



I believe their (edmunds) measurements are correct. I test drove the new GS, granted I am 6'3" tall, but there was no way anyone was going to be sitting behind me comfortably!

Scott

RandyWatson
03-03-2005, 12:04 AM
Whoa, the M45 in not a bad car at all. Just disappointed it lost to a V-6 RL, I don't care who tested it. And who sends the cars to get tested anyway? Do they request them? It seems Infiniti is sending base models to test in all the comparisons not trying to scare people away from the price.

You don't care who tested it? Have you considered the supidity involved in that statement. Apparently not. It says 50K sport sedan comparison. That's what Infiniti sent. Their sportiest version for 50K. As it turns out that's not what they were testing for. I think a fully loaded M35X would have walked away with this comparison test. They didn't really care how sporty the car was. The M35X performs on the level of the other cars and has more equipment than either one. I think Infiniti can get back at Edmunds though. The next time they have a 20K sport coupe comparison, they should just send a G35 coupe. It's 10 grand more but from this review that shouldn't matter. I just read this review again and it contradicts itself over and over. I think Edmunds should be banned from any further comparison testing. They are clearly incompetent.



Are you 10 and is this the first comparison test you read? I've head for years and every year in every magazine, they ask for the cars in the comparison. Its the carmakers responsibility to send I suppose the car it thinks it has the best chance to win. So how in the hell can you be mad ad EDMUNDS for testing what they were GIVEN??? Would u rather the M sit out and wait till next time. The RL only has a V-6, yes, Acura is lame and does not make V-8s but they gave them a car anyway, KNOWING it was not a V-8. And good for them, it actually placed 2nd.

No. Infiniti makes another mistake and it costed them. The car came in 3rd, not even 2nd. And I'll be honest I thought I was going to win big time.

WHO THE HELL HEARD OF A 60K COMPARISON??!?!?!?

SukairainKupe
03-03-2005, 04:20 AM
Come on guys, this argument is going nowhere~ If Randy agrees with the Edmunds reviewers then so be it. It's better he speaks out now base on a website review rather than buying the car and regret it later on.

The M is the sporty one of the bunch, the GS is probably the luxury comfort benchmark while the RL is the ultimate Accord.(in a good sense) We can't expect every person to have the same opinions. Japanese luxury sedans have been taking over the German market for awhile now, these trio present the next logical step. Think Japanese partners rather than cut throat competitors.

ps: Thank you Bangle for turning so many people away from Bimmer - now the mid-segment luxury sedan market is wide open.

aas5
03-03-2005, 07:24 AM
If you want to come up with a meaningful analysis, Randy, you don't just take what was given to you - you try to normalize things to compare a to a...Blaming Infiniti may only make sense if they should have known by now that the guys at Edmunds, while knowing a few things about cars, should not be allowed to do comparos. They can write about car's features and provide pricing/incentives information and help people learn how to buy cars but not comparos. It's embarrasing, to say the least. Let's have them compare Hummer to Towncar as a luxury convertable now...They'll do it, just ask.

CoCo_PuFf
03-03-2005, 10:51 AM
OK, before this gets ugly I want mister Randy, who has such a strong negative opinion of Infiniti, to look at the score chart for his "highly trusted" Edmunds 50K comparison.


From the Edmunds test:
Final Rankings and Scoring Explanation

Final Rankings
Lexus GS 430/Acura RL/Infiniti M45 (in that order)

Personal Rating (10% of score)
77.8/55.6/66.7
Recommended Rating (10% of score)
77.8/88.9/33.3
Evaluation Score (20% of score)
80.6/74.0/77.8
Feature Content (20% of score)
66.7/66.7/40.0
Performance (20% of score)
86.0/60.0/100.0
Price (20% of score)
77.5/100.0/100.0

Total Score
77.7/74.6/73.6
(1st/2nd/3rd)

Scoring Explanation

Personal Rating: Purely subjective. After the test, each participating editor was asked to rank the vehicles in order of preference based on which he or she would buy if money were no object.

Recommended Rating: After the test, each participating editor was asked to rank the vehicles in order of preference based on which he or she thought would be best for the average consumer shopping in this segment.

24-Point Evaluation: Each participating editor ranked every vehicle based on a comprehensive 24-point evaluation. The evaluation covered everything from exterior design to cupholders. Scoring was calculated on a point system, and the scores listed are averages based on all test participants' evaluations.

Performance Testing: Each car was subjected to a set of performance tests that measure acceleration, braking and speed through a 600-foot slalom course. Scores were calculated by giving the best sedan in each category 100 percent. Subsequent vehicles were awarded points based on how close they came to the best performing car's score.

Feature Content: For this category, the editors picked the top 5 features they thought would be most beneficial to the consumer shopping in this segment. For each vehicle, the score was based on the amount of actual features it had versus the total possible (5). Standard and optional equipment were taken into consideration.

Price: The numbers listed were the result of a simple percentage calculation based on the least expensive vehicle in the comparison test. Using the "as tested" prices of the actual evaluation vehicles, the least expensive vehicle received a score of 100, with the remaining vehicles receiving lesser scores based on how much each one costs.


now Randy, you're a smart guy right? then First you should notice that the M45 basically mopped the floor with the other two cars. Second you should notice that the M45 lost a $hit-load of points on content, even though common sense should tell Edmunds that they were driving a base model M45 compared to a loaded V6 RL, and a loaded 60K V8 GS430....obviously something's not fair here. Third you shuld notice that the only reason that the M45 came in third is because Edmunds single handedly placed it there just because they wanted to for no apparent reason......what I gather from this is 1.) that a Base M45 sport lost a comparison to a Loaded V6 Acura (non sport), and a loaded V8 Lexus (non sport) base on comfort and content 2.) the Edmunds staff obviously has some sort of bias toward certain 3.) the Edmunds staff cant drive for peanuts 4.) Edmunds, above all other automotive publications, can't be trusted when it comes to a fair car comparison. 5.) Infiniti obviously has the superior car if you look at the other point ratings...so Kudos to them, eventhough they were shafted.

Deadpool
03-03-2005, 11:06 AM
Randy will tell you that its the end result that matters and Infiniti should pull out of the US market because the M45 came in third.... http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

dseag2
03-03-2005, 11:32 AM
Whoa, the M45 in not a bad car at all. Just disappointed it lost to a V-6 RL, I don't care who tested it. And who sends the cars to get tested anyway? Do they request them? It seems Infiniti is sending base models to test in all the comparisons not trying to scare people away from the price.

You don't care who tested it? Have you considered the supidity involved in that statement.



That must be a rhetorical question. I don't think stupidity is ever taken into account in any statements he makes. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Vans
03-03-2005, 01:37 PM
This comparison has been getting bashed all over the internet - it really is a joke. No doubt Infiniti maybe sent the wrong car, but i mean the title of the comparison even says that it's supposed to be a sport sedan test....

Overall - I dont' have a huge problem with Edmunds, but this test just stunk all around

RandyWatson
03-03-2005, 02:27 PM
Basically, many people thought the M45 sport was the new God of Sports Sednas, and it lost to a V-6 RL and of course the GS. And all the fanboys insist Edmunds is nuts. Some of us agree with what Edmunds said (they are professionals right) and we are crazy too.

I bet if the M45 won, Edmunds would be the greatest thing since sliced bread.

222Max
03-03-2005, 03:08 PM
I think this molehill is way past becoming a mountain. Edmunds rated the cars the way they did... nothing's gonna change that. Every test panel is going to be subjective and this group of folks arrived at this conclusion. Now the fact of the matter is that a hair separates each of these cars (and they admitted this themselves) and that each was within 4 points of the other.

By that measure it's impossible for there to be a bad car in the bunch. And that would be true if the standings were reversed so that the M was number one. The distance from first to third is so minute that nobody should be talking trash about any of these cars.

These things are like a pendulum. It swung the M's way with the MT comparison. Now it swings the GS's way. Who knows what will win next. Maybe the M, maybe the GS. I still insist that this was a wacky, inconsistent and sloppy test. But it's done now.

Here's a thought. Would those who love the performance edge of an Infiniti wish the M had the GS's personality? Probably not. Would those who love the silky refinement of the GS prefer it had the M's personality? Probably not. If anything these cars are the perfect representation of what these two companys are philosophically all about going back to the original Q and LS. Infiniti has always been the harder and more visceral experience while Lexus has been more luxurious and accomodating.

There's room in the universe for both of these cars. Thery're both outstanding and since we all don't share the same values and priorities in what we want in a car there's a choice. Now go spend that $50-60,000 dammit, and be happy about it.

RandyWatson
03-03-2005, 03:29 PM
I think this molehill is way past becoming a mountain. Edmunds rated the cars the way they did... nothing's gonna change that. Every test panel is going to be subjective and this group of folks arrived at this conclusion. Now the fact of the matter is that a hair separates each of these cars (and they admitted this themselves) and that each was within 4 points of the other.

By that measure it's impossible for there to be a bad car in the bunch. And that would be true if the standings were reversed so that the M was number one. The distance from first to third is so minute that nobody should be talking trash about any of these cars.

These things are like a pendulum. It swung the M's way with the MT comparison. Now it swings the GS's way. Who knows what will win next. Maybe the M, maybe the GS. I still insist that this was a wacky, inconsistent and sloppy test. But it's done now.

Here's a thought. Would those who love the performance edge of an Infiniti wish the M had the GS's personality? Probably not. Would those who love the silky refinement of the GS prefer it had the M's personality? Probably not. If anything these cars are the perfect representation of what these two companys are philosophically all about going back to the original Q and LS. Infiniti has always been the harder and more visceral experience while Lexus has been more luxurious and accomodating.

There's room in the universe for both of these cars. Thery're both outstanding and since we all don't share the same values and priorities in what we want in a car there's a choice. Now go spend that $50-60,000 dammit, and be happy about it.


WIth u here. THere is nothing bad about these cars at all. Quite increidble, looking at cars of 10 years ago. And the M is the best Infinti ever.

TwinTurboZX
03-04-2005, 08:16 PM
Ignore RandyWatson, his main objective on this board is to start arguments and flame wars.

340HP
03-05-2005, 06:24 AM
I think this thread has been beat to death over and over.

We all know how everyone feels.

I'm closing it.