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View Full Version : DVD-A, SACD, and DualDisc



TheDon
03-23-2005, 08:22 AM
I bring this up as some of us will be wanting to fully utilize the capabilities of the Tech package stereo system on the new M.

I'm sure there has been a lot of discussion on audio recordings, CD, DVD and the like. I'm sure there might be some techies, or even some in the biz that can get into the specifics better than I can.

Working in the non-technical aspects of the music industry here in Nashville, I can tell you there is a lot of confusion in regards to DVD, DVD-Audio, SACD, and the latest release of DualDisc recordings. I fault my industry for all of the confusion, and mainly put it on the doorstep of Sony BMG. Each label promotes its own standard, and releases their artists recordings according to that spec. Sony backs the SACD, yet has for the most part avoided DVD-A, but is in lock step with some of the labels in promoting the new DualDisc. DualDisc first encountered problems with artist's royalties, and then writer's royalties, as well as a pattern infringment case that prevented DualDisc from being released in Europe. Additionally, the industry agreed on the spec defining the thickness of a DVD and that of DualDisc to be uniform. All problems are reported to have been resolved, and DualDisc is slated to "save the industry" in its search to replace the normal CD recording, and to combat online file swapping. Some CD and DVD players will not play the DualDisc recordings, and some will. I have attached some links to various sites to explain DualDisc, so I won't lay the pitch down for you.

Here is the summary IMO:

SACD plays only on SACD equipment, and IMO will hopefully soon die a quick death.

DVD-A is the real deal, discrete 5.1 digitally mastered tracks. The best their is, but a very limited selection of artist's titles.

DualDisc offers "some" discrete 5.1 recordings, but the majority of the popular releases are "enhanced" surround recordings, using a faster speed and bit rate than that of your traditional CD. Some do offer true DVD-A, but most it seems will not. Read the package carefully.

I hate my industry for this, and sorry to all for the confusion, and for all the non-conformity issues.

I wish I had the tech background to explain the why's and what's of the deal, but as everyone knows, it's all about the coin.

Check These Links Out, and Any Input Is Appreciated:

http://www.dualdisc.com/

http://www.highfidelityreview.com/news/index.asp

http://dvdaudiodaily.com/cgi-bin/FrameIt.cgi?Url=http://www.audioworld.org/blog/kevin/000051.shtml&ConfigFile=FrameIt.cfg

My45
03-23-2005, 09:05 AM
Technically speaking, SACD is the higher quality format (although DVD-Audio advocates will argue against this), and it supports 5.1 just like DVD-Audio. I wish the new M supported SACD as well, because I have a stack of SACD's already. I agree with you though. I think SACD is doomed. DVD-Audio isn't doing too well either, for two reasons (in my opinion);
1. You can't rip a DVD-Audio disc into something that will play on a portable like an Ipod
2. The largest outlet for DVD-Audio today is a home system with a 5.1 speaker set up. Not too many people sit around listening to music on the couch anymore (save for a few of us audiophiles).

For DVD-Audio to really take off it needs to somehow be ripable to an Ipod. There also needs to be a large number of car manufacturers putting DVD-Audio systems into the cars (like the M) so that there is a place for people to really experience surround music.

I know I will be buying a lot more DVD-Audio discs now that my car will be able to play them in full glory.

GeneArch
03-23-2005, 11:03 AM
I know I will be buying a lot more DVD-Audio discs now that my car will be able to play them in full glory.



Any suggestions where I can find a wide selection (on-line?) Amazon seems to be a bit hit/miss..

xmlguy
03-23-2005, 11:30 AM
DVD-A is the real deal, discrete 5.1 digitally mastered tracks. The best their is, but a very limited selection of artist's titles.

Is it just me that finds a real duality here? On the one hand the RIAA doesn't want you ripping music to MP3 because it can be published online, and would rather you used a DRM-based solution such as iTunes or Napster-to-Go (or ATRAC is you're Sony). Then on the other hand, they're not backing DVD-A... a format that can't be ripped to MP3 as far as I know, especially in 5.1 form, because MP3 is a stereo format.

A few years ago you might have said, "well, thats because not everyone has a DVD player" but I'd say thats not true now...

At the end of the day, it surely comes down to this: folks that buy CDs do so because they *can* rip them

SACD is the one that bothers me. What is Sony thinking coming up with a new standard when a perfectly acceptable one exists in DVD-Audio. More importantly, if you were to ask a lay-person which was better: "DVD Audio" or "Super Audio CD" I bet they'd say "DVD" because they know what it means ... "DVD is better than CD", right? Sony's greed has been their undoing, and their Connect store is too little too late.

I just wish they'd settle on a single format, and have the labels get behind that. I'd be happy if they only released discs in that one format too... If I need music for my iPod I'll buy it online.

My45
03-23-2005, 12:45 PM
Didn't SACD ship before DVD-Audio? Not that I am defending Sony. I'm not. Sony has done it again and again with proprietary formats (most of which have failed in the long run), and I'm tired of it. They're doing it again with the upcoming BluRay Disc (vs HDDVD).

I do really like the quality of sound from the SACD format. What is annoying to me is can't enjoy my SACDs anywhere but in one room. I have to buy the CD version and rip it if I want it enjoy this music anywhere else.

The dual disc might be nice, if you have a ripable CD on one side, and a high quality DVD-Audio on the other. Best of all worlds.

Dragon1
03-23-2005, 07:13 PM
When I went to Best Buy they seemed to have many more titles in SACD. The DVD-A selection was very poor. I have placed an order here http://www.dvdempire.com
and also found this site which seems to be more reasonable and has a better selection http://www.sendmemovies.com

Christian
03-24-2005, 04:05 PM
Technically speaking, SACD is the higher quality format (although DVD-Audio advocates will argue against this), and it supports 5.1 just like DVD-Audio.


I'm a SACD listener as well, and I love the sound of the format. It sounds a bit more open than DVD-A, but I've got several of those as well. I secretly hope SACD survives, and believe it or not, more releases are in SACD than DVD-A, but a majority of them are classical and jazz (both of which I'm a fan of). A lot of the more popular releases are in DVD-A, but in the quest of higher resolution digital, I buy these as well.

Sony's backing Dual Disc now, so it seems they've all but given up on SACD http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif. Many classical labels, however, still continue to churn out more titles.



The dual disc might be nice, if you have a ripable CD on one side, and a high quality DVD-Audio on the other.


As My45 probably already knows, SACD's have always been available in a "hybrid" format, i.e., CD layer and SACD layer - AND it conforms to the redbook CD standard (i.e., playable in all CD/DVD players). However, DualDisc does not have that guarantee (you can read this on the label). Additionally, it's not a guarantee that DVD-A is on the other side. In fact, most releases now (from Sony, no less) are 16bit/48kHz - not much of an improvement over the 16bit/44.1kHz sampling of CDs. DVD-A's, on the other hand, are a minimum of 24bit/96kHz, and can go up to 24bit/192kHz. (SACD is completely different, getting rid of multi-bit PCM in favor of a single sample (bit) at 2.8GHz).



SACD is the one that bothers me. What is Sony thinking coming up with a new standard when a perfectly acceptable one exists in DVD-Audio.


DSD (Direct Stream Digital - the technology behind SACD) has been around for years. Many classical recording companies use it for direct to digital recordings (Sony, of course, but also Telarc, some BMG, and others). But you're right, it's a completely new format and has boggled the consumers. Most consumers don't have high resolution rigs (though some forum members seem to have - such as My45 and 340HP, I'm inferring from posts), and are perfectly content buying CDs/downloading music instead of going for new formats.

I'm glad we're getting DVD-A in the M. It's not SACD, but right now I'm willing to take it's competitor for the chance to get some hi-res on the road.

Happy driving (and listening)!

Christian

340HP
03-24-2005, 11:58 PM
Technically speaking, SACD is the higher quality format (although DVD-Audio advocates will argue against this), and it supports 5.1 just like DVD-Audio.


I'm a SACD listener as well, and I love the sound of the format. It sounds a bit more open than DVD-A, but I've got several of those as well. I secretly hope SACD survives, and believe it or not, more releases are in SACD than DVD-A, but a majority of them are classical and jazz (both of which I'm a fan of). A lot of the more popular releases are in DVD-A, but in the quest of higher resolution digital, I buy these as well.

Sony's backing Dual Disc now, so it seems they've all but given up on SACD http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif. Many classical labels, however, still continue to churn out more titles.



The dual disc might be nice, if you have a ripable CD on one side, and a high quality DVD-Audio on the other.


As My45 probably already knows, SACD's have always been available in a "hybrid" format, i.e., CD layer and SACD layer - AND it conforms to the redbook CD standard (i.e., playable in all CD/DVD players). However, DualDisc does not have that guarantee (you can read this on the label). Additionally, it's not a guarantee that DVD-A is on the other side. In fact, most releases now (from Sony, no less) are 16bit/48kHz - not much of an improvement over the 16bit/44.1kHz sampling of CDs. DVD-A's, on the other hand, are a minimum of 24bit/96kHz, and can go up to 24bit/192kHz. (SACD is completely different, getting rid of multi-bit PCM in favor of a single sample (bit) at 2.8GHz).



SACD is the one that bothers me. What is Sony thinking coming up with a new standard when a perfectly acceptable one exists in DVD-Audio.


DSD (Direct Stream Digital - the technology behind SACD) has been around for years. Many classical recording companies use it for direct to digital recordings (Sony, of course, but also Telarc, some BMG, and others). But you're right, it's a completely new format and has boggled the consumers. Most consumers don't have high resolution rigs (though some forum members seem to have - such as My45 and 340HP, I'm inferring from posts), and are perfectly content buying CDs/downloading music instead of going for new formats.

I'm glad we're getting DVD-A in the M. It's not SACD, but right now I'm willing to take it's competitor for the chance to get some hi-res on the road.

Happy driving (and listening)!

Christian



A friend of mine owns a HI-END audio store in Manhattan, where speakers alone cost $30-60 thousand. Yes, $60,000. The Meridian system was amazing, as was the McIntosh. Classe kicked arse too with B&W speakers via Classe amps and a Wadia cd player. When I heard SACD I was literally blown away. My home system doesn't yet support SACD and I might not jump into it, since it's a dying standard, but it's by far the most superior of any format. DVDa is close, but SACD surpasses it.

For now I think I will be content with DVDa.

As for MP3 - I think it's a waste of time. The quality is absolutely awful. On my Mirage / Velodyne system, MP3's sound like tapes (I have over 3000 watts on tap). And I'm using four 192 khz DACs, with optical (sp-dif) input from the cd player.

The best CDs I have are DTS and movie tracks. I will have to upgrade my DAC to support DVDa and SACD, unless I use analog inputs into the amps (which, I don't like to do).

Other than that, I'm waiting for the Sony Qualia 006, the first 70" projection TV with true 1080p (progressive, not 1080i - interlaced). First set of its kind. All others are 720i.

But enough about audio and video. WHERE IS MY CAR!!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

CODYTM45
03-25-2005, 04:31 AM
I can see you are going crazy 340hp waiting on that vehicle to arrive. I think I read you said it left Texas yesterday. Well hopefully only a few more days! You'll love it. I do! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

340HP
03-25-2005, 11:00 AM
I can see you are going crazy 340hp waiting on that vehicle to arrive. I think I read you said it left Texas yesterday. Well hopefully only a few more days! You'll love it. I do! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif



Cody, I'm dying here, waiting for it. I was hoping it would be here for Easter - since I have to drive to NY to visit my parents, but I won't see it until wed/thr of next week.