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View Full Version : Another GT2871R Dyno - 326.2rwhp@16psi *VID ADDED*



SequenceGarage
06-08-2005, 04:46 AM
I'm really not sure if i'm happy with this result or not. I went to the dyno aiming for 350rwhp, however the engine is entirely stock and I was hoping for 350 at 17/18psi not 16, so there is some power there. Looks like the power is pretty close for my mods though.

It was my first time tuning a car I used the aem ems and it was pretty easy to tune, just need to take some fuel out of the low end its 10:1 around 3500rpm, but 11.8-12.0 from 4500+ Timing is 17 degrees for most of the power curve.

Look at the graph - see that dip in torque at 4700rpm? Does anyone have any ideas on what that is? My AFRs are clean and my boost is not dropping off, could it be the vtc? I don't even think it is enabled on the AEM EMS, and it doesn't make sense why the power would go DOWN with it on.

Mods:

Early S14 SR20DET
AEM EMS
SARD 850cc Injectors
Greddy Turbo Elbow/Blitz Downpipe/Test Pipe/Apex N1 Evo
Apex intake, 2.5" intake pipe
2" hotpipe
GReddy R-SPL FMIC
RPS max 6puck
HKS GT-RS (GT2871R 0.64 a/r)

STOCK exhaust mani, intake mani, cams, hg, flywheel.

Comments/Advice/Input welcome

http://www.sequence-garage.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1118187200.jpg
These look like SAE corrected numbers, i'm no sure why he gave me those numbers, the uncorrected numbers were no more than 5hp off of that anyways

This was on a dyno jet. Pics and a small video coming soon! The car pulls but not as hard as i'd like. It was also abnormally hot up here yesterday so i'm sure when its about 15 degrees cooler (celcius) the car will rip a lot harder.

A bit cooler, figure out that torque dip, play with the timing some more and I think I can hit 350rwhp at 17.5psi

The torque seems really high for hte amount of HP I'm making, and im sure its no doubt due to this dip

JRODS_240
06-08-2005, 05:33 AM
I'm no expert but that seems about normal for that turbo;

you just need to get some cams and you'll pass your goal of

350hp. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

BlackBomber
06-08-2005, 07:43 AM
I'm no expert but that seems about normal for that turbo;

you just need to get some cams and you'll pass your goal of

350hp. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif



for some reason it seems like not matter what turbo you throw at these engines, they level off around low-mid 300s until you get an intake mani and cams. Looks to be right on par with everyone else.

Enthalpy
06-08-2005, 07:52 AM
for some reason it seems like not matter what turbo you throw at these engines, they level off around low-mid 300s until you get an intake mani and cams. Looks to be right on par with everyone else.



that is a fact jay.

there is only so much air you cna get into the stock motor with stock intake manifold and cams. you would be surprised to see how many differnt turbos do 320-330whp @ 17-18 psi on an SR.

killjoy
06-08-2005, 08:27 AM
Haha, i can vouch. I have used 3 different turbos at the same boost level and they all made about 330-340 on stock cams, intake at that level. These were considerable different too as far as sizes. Smallest was a gt3251E, inbetween was a 50 trim, and biggest was a gt3040. They all did about the same on stock motor.

DeatschWerks_Dave
06-08-2005, 08:52 AM
Look at the graph - see that dip in torque at 4700rpm? Does anyone have any ideas on what that is?




VTEC cross over?? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, it is an s14 SR so maybe VTC? If not, I'd look at timing and afr's at that point to see if there is a jump/drop in either one. The graph looks smooth right through that transition so I don't think it is a miss or anything.

cwdmark
06-08-2005, 08:57 AM
what everyone else said.

i take it this is the bigger .86 housing. compare your dyno to redtop s14's and you are doing quite well! at 20psi and stock mani and cams he did 320whp. it does look like whatever you boost it at it will level around the same area. weird.

the turbo's are rated at 350whp or 400whp with "supporting mods", which means intake manifold, cams, etc.

PowerdBY007
06-08-2005, 09:55 AM
HKS GT-RS (GT2871R 0.64 a/r)




think this answers your Question


I have the GT2871R .64 also on my car... but have to wait for some engine issues to get resolved.. i have greddy intake and tomei pon cams.. CANT wait to get this thing going

DOBA
06-08-2005, 11:26 AM
Great numbers Sasha, I didnt know you went with the GT2871R, didnt see a post on SON, regardless cant wait to see your car move now.
Congrats

cwdmark
06-08-2005, 11:36 AM
for a .64 and boost level those are VERY good numbers. i was maxing around 350whp with cams and intake manifold.

Turbopowr
06-08-2005, 12:41 PM
Is your knock sensor activated in the EMS? Also, did you datalog that run and see how everything looked at that point where your power dropped slightly? If the EMS pulled a little timing it could be the cause of drop in your power. Did you tweak your knock noise table, or is it how it came from AEM? Are you using one of the base maps for a SR20DET that came with your software?

Angel
06-08-2005, 01:43 PM
Is your knock sensor activated in the EMS? Also, did you datalog that run and see how everything looked at that point where your power dropped slightly? If the EMS pulled a little timing it could be the cause of drop in your power. Did you tweak your knock noise table, or is it how it came from AEM? Are you using one of the base maps for a SR20DET that came with your software?



Hector brings up some good things to check. What's up Hector http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Do you have a log of the run that we could take a gander at? Might shed some light on that dip. Otherwise I would say that it is pretty close for mods.

SequenceGarage
06-08-2005, 02:37 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys, I didn't realize it until you said it scott, but if the intake mani and cams become more of a restriction than the exhaust side of the turbo - you're right, a bigger turbo really wouldn't flow more at the same pressure!

My hopes are higher now and cams just moved up on my list of things to do. Oil cooler first though.

I used the 1622U SR base map on the map sensor, however with the 850cc injectors the car hardly ran, and it was way lean in boost. I added 35% and just kept pulling fuel until I had the afr I wanted.

The timing was really retarded so we leaned it out (I was hesitant but the guy at the shop was yelling at me to do it - you'll see in the video I make tonight)

As for the datalog, yes I have logs of all the runs I did saved on my laptop, I can upload them on thursday - however to answer your questions the AFRs did not move at those points, the boost did not move, and the timing did not move. I was watching the AEM knock reading while doing the run and it never once moved from zero, very good idea but (fortunatly) it is not the case.

I'm wondering if it has to do with the S14 head, if anyone has any S14 dyno's post them up

As far as VTC goes, I checked my ems settings this morning and it seems like the EMS was not triggering the VTC at all, I activated it and am thinking of going to the dyno with just the VTC engaged on a cooler day for a 19psi run.

cwdmark i've been watching your dynos for a while now dude and i've just been kinda hoping my motor would be as successful as yours it seems like tons of fun http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Turbopowr
06-08-2005, 02:49 PM
What's up Angel? Have we met before? I know a few Angel's around here so just wondering if you are one of the one's I know http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

killjoy
06-08-2005, 02:57 PM
Hey Hector, are you familiar with Extreme Motorsports in MD? I knwo they have the worlds fastest talon, but its on Nitrous. Not sure what it was on boost alone.

cwdmark
06-08-2005, 02:57 PM
cwdmark i've been watching your dynos for a while now dude and i've just been kinda hoping my motor would be as successful as yours it seems like tons of fun http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif


VERY fun turbo. once you have it tuned with cams and intake manifold it is such a nice responsive turbo. it seems like topend is choked off a little with the turbo but the response is great. i have moved onto the gt3071r .64 (got a good trade deal)... should have a dyno up next week. spools almost just as fast as the 2871, but there is lag when you go into other gears.

Turbopowr
06-08-2005, 03:06 PM
Although it's possible that you didn't pick up knock on that run, I wouldn't go by just watching the screen for knock. You should datalog onboard the EMS, not the laptop because it has a lot better resolution. It is possible for the EMS to pick up knock that is not shown on the laptop screen or even in a datalog recorded on the laptop. I would datalog through the EMS and then look at your Knock #1 voltage readings and look for abnormal spikes. Compare your Knock #1 voltage readings to your Knock Sensor Cal Table and see if you are getting spikes higher at those respective rpm as compared to your Knock Sensor Cal Table.

Even if this isn't your problem, you should still tweak your Knock Sensor Cal map according to your engine and the mechanical noise that it makes. AEM often times has their Knock Sensor Cal table set too sensitive, and the car might pull timing when it's just picking up engine noise, and not actual knock. I've seen it happen a LOT on all kinds of cars http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Turbopowr
06-08-2005, 03:14 PM
Hey Hector, are you familiar with Extreme Motorsports in MD? I knwo they have the worlds fastest talon, but its on Nitrous. Not sure what it was on boost alone.



Killjoy, I am very familiar with Extreme (Sean Glazer) and all DSM's for that matter. The fastest extreme has gone without nitrous is 9.5x @ 150mph, we went 155mph. As far as the fastest in the world, John Shepherd has gone 170mph http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

BoOST_CreEP
06-08-2005, 05:40 PM
timing my son, timing. theres alot of power to be made in your tune. those dips in teh curve can be brought up. try posting on the aempower forums http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

1mns13
06-08-2005, 06:16 PM
I have a stock redtop that has the exact same dip at 4700rpm in the curve. There was another redtop in a 510 on this site with the same dip. I'd love to know what causes it.

S14Redtop
06-08-2005, 06:24 PM
I think cams should absolutely be your next investemnt. You will be shocked how much it opens up your top end.
The car feels completely different. From my experience
with cwdmark's .64 and my 86, we see that there are some
big differences. He made about 365 at 20psi..so you can expect to do about the same with some cams. As compared
to the .86 which made 410 at 18.5psi.

ps..mark...i'm waiting for these NEW dyno numbers you keep talking about...hope your new clutch will hold. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

m

SequenceGarage
06-08-2005, 07:18 PM
Holy [censored] 365 at 20 and 410 at 18.5? Thats over 40rwhp difference if the boost levels were equal, I thought they were closer than that?

Cams seem like a very good idea, but i've got the whole "while the heads apart may as well..." syndrome, and it's going to add up big time. Oil cooler is for sure the first thing though, track days with 350rwhp and no oil cooling would be bad news.

So heres the video I made, song is baracuda haha. If you listen closely you can actually hear the engine note changet at 4700, either that or i'm just imagining things, but it definatly seems like something is happening that is lowering performance.

RightClickSaveAsMe (http://www.sequence-garage.com/dyno.mov) (50mb, quicktime)

The end of the video I pressed the dyno brake rather than the full throttle run button and stalled the car when I shifted into 4th hahaha, like I said tuning novice http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Logs will come tommorow when I have access to my laptop.

btw what timing are you guys running at this boost level on 94? The basemap had 10-11 degrees stock and we ended up around 17 degrees, however the EMS programs the midrange to have much less timing than the high end, I'm not sure why. I'll be honest I didnt' tune the timing like I should have monitoring torque and adjusting timing accordingly, but buddy at the shop insisted that the timing was way too retarded, and advancing it didn't seem to promote any knocking, however there is no proof of performance gain either. At the same time keep in mind these runs were all very closely spaced and the engine was heat soaking.

redhanded
06-08-2005, 08:37 PM
yups, i also agree with the 300-330whp plateau with stock intake and cams. i have a t3t4 and i made 330 at 18psi. im saving up for cams and intake manifold at the moment. i remember reading the full race vs log manifold comparison, which makes me wonder if i need to have upgraded cams and intake manifold to see that gain. or will i get it with stock set-up.

1mns13
06-08-2005, 10:13 PM
You're not imagining things, all of my dno runs, about 8 in total, sound the same and I have the same dip. You can evene feel the dip on the road on a WOT run.



So heres the video I made, song is baracuda haha. If you listen closely you can actually hear the engine note changet at 4700, either that or i'm just imagining things, but it definatly seems like something is happening that is lowering performance.

RightClickSaveAsMe (http://www.sequence-garage.com/dyno.mov) (50mb, quicktime)


btw what timing are you guys running at this boost level on 94? The basemap had 10-11 degrees stock and we ended up around 17 degrees, however the EMS programs the midrange to have much less timing than the high end, I'm not sure why. I'll be honest I didnt' tune the timing like I should have monitoring torque and adjusting timing accordingly, but buddy at the shop insisted that the timing was way too retarded, and advancing it didn't seem to promote any knocking, however there is no proof of performance gain either. At the same time keep in mind these runs were all very closely spaced and the engine was heat soaking.

cwdmark
06-09-2005, 12:02 AM
Holy [censored] 365 at 20 and 410 at 18.5? Thats over 40rwhp difference if the boost levels were equal, I thought they were closer than that?


they aint. the .64 is choked off and quits making power around 350whp. the bigger .86 housing has been up to 400whp (mark got even more). i think the same thing would have to be correct for the 3071 as well. the .64 housing will probably max around 400whp, but the .86 housing will max around 450whp. i could be wrong but we'll see.

i was having a missing spark problem before (which caused similiar dip in dyno). i just installed some splitfires so that should take care of that, but it's too bad the 2871 is gone and i cant redyno the setup.

SequenceGarage
06-09-2005, 06:02 AM
http://www.tomei-p.co.jp/_2003web-catalogue/image/pic/ep067_02_kahen_valve.gif

This is from tomei's site. Look at how they recognize the graph and claim that the stock cams will remove that dip. Interesting though because I don't think my VTC was enabled, and you guys are talking about this happening on S13 motors.

"Variable Valve Timing is the electronic system that controls opening and closing timing of the valve to get a ideal combustion, such as NVCS of NISAN. Consequently, gaining high out put in high RPM and realizing big torque and long mileage per gas in low RPM at the same time. TOME PONCAM is also designed to make a good use of the high performance of the VVT, and enables to give engine the Surely power up from low RPM to high RPM to high RPM combined with the VVT system."

Angel
06-09-2005, 08:43 AM
btw what timing are you guys running at this boost level on 94? The basemap had 10-11 degrees stock and we ended up around 17 degrees, however the EMS programs the midrange to have much less timing than the high end, I'm not sure why. I'll be honest I didnt' tune the timing like I should have monitoring torque and adjusting timing accordingly, but buddy at the shop insisted that the timing was way too retarded, and advancing it didn't seem to promote any knocking, however there is no proof of performance gain either. At the same time keep in mind these runs were all very closely spaced and the engine was heat soaking.



Can't really comment on how much timing I am running as my ecu was done by Scott ( Enthalpy ) so whatever he set it to. But without looking at the ign. map, I would say that the lower midrange values are to avoid knock at and around tq peak ( where cyl pressures are highest and knock is most likely ) and the additional timing up top is there because you generally feed in a bit more timing with rpm. I have not messed with many sr's, although I am doing an AEM sr now. For the time being it is running on a conservative base map and just waiting for the owner to return from his honeymoon to get on the dyno and finish up.

Hector, it's ex-supra Angel. I have a really ugly 89 coupe with a redtop and GT2871R .64 on it now. I may have to use Aerocomp's dyno soon as AT is pulling the dyno out of the ground wed.

Turbopowr
06-09-2005, 01:45 PM
Angel, I thought it was you. Anyway, I sent you a PM so we don't clutter up this thread being off topic.

Talk to you later.

quick108
06-09-2005, 05:02 PM
The 30-1622 Base Map switches the VTC over at 4600RPM (same as factory). By looking at the torque curve, I would bump this up a couple hundred RPM.

SequenceGarage
06-09-2005, 06:27 PM
The 30-1622 Base Map switches the VTC over at 4600RPM (same as factory). By looking at the torque curve, I would bump this up a couple hundred RPM.



You're absolutly right, I didn't see that before in the output config.

Actually the stock VTC is set to operate as follows

0-1050 Intake Cam Retarded 20 degrees (unless under high load)
1050-5700 Intake Cam Normal (VTC solenoid ON - 21 degrees overlap)
5700+ Intake Cam Retarded 20 degrees (1 degree overlap)

So the EMS setting it at 4600 sounds very premature, and it seems to be lowering my peak torque quite a bit, however the top end shouldn't change.

Can someone explain to me why opening the cam later is better than openening it earlier and allowing the intake pressure to assit in blowing out exhaust? Either way whether it is before tdc or after bdc keeping it open longer the intake air is only fighting the piston so I don't see why opening it in the compression stroke would be any better than opening it a bit earlier in the exhaust stroke.

From the looks of things on the dyno it seems as if the engine wants to keep going but retarding the timing 20 degrees hurts it, unless the torque falls off really hard after 4600rpm?

Edit: here is my guestimation of how the system is acting, its too bad the torque falls off so hard at ~5600 regardless.

So why are S13 guys having these lumps in the graphs?

http://www.sequence-garage.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1118363606.jpg

As soon as I get cams I'll go back to the dyno and do one run with VTC on and one with it OFF, chart the two together and make the crossover point where the TQ crosses over on the chart

nissandet240
06-11-2005, 03:16 AM
I just took a look at my dyno sheet and my SR does the same thing after 5000 rmps when torque falls.

So why are S13 guys having these lumps in the graphs?

http://www.sequence-garage.com/forums/uploads/post-19-1118363606.jpg

SequenceGarage
06-11-2005, 07:34 AM
if you have an S15 SR like your name says then thats why. VTC.

Dorifto_PG
06-11-2005, 12:05 PM
if you have an S15 SR like your name says then thats why. VTC.


VTC stops at 5900rpm, not 4500. So its not that.

nissandet240
06-12-2005, 07:49 PM
Yes. I do. could this be couse of head gasket was blown.
the temp went very high during the sesion. all i can remember.




if you have an S15 SR like your name says then thats why. VTC.


VTC stops at 5900rpm, not 4500. So its not that.

killjoy
06-12-2005, 08:44 PM
Hey Hector, are you familiar with Extreme Motorsports in MD? I knwo they have the worlds fastest talon, but its on Nitrous. Not sure what it was on boost alone.



Killjoy, I am very familiar with Extreme (Sean Glazer) and all DSM's for that matter. The fastest extreme has gone without nitrous is 9.5x @ 150mph, we went 155mph. As far as the fastest in the world, John Shepherd has gone 170mph http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif



What was the ET? They have gone 8.63 at 167 I believe, and I was pretty sure that they held the record.

Turbopowr
06-14-2005, 07:08 PM
Extreme holds the record for the quickest run with their 8.63 @ 167. Shepherd's quickest time with his old setup was 8.71, but he has gone as fast as 170mph making him the fastest AWD DSM.

killjoy
06-15-2005, 07:36 AM
Gotcha, I wasn't sure if you were implying that the 170 run was the fastest. I use to use their dyno frequently. I lived in MD until the Jan of this year. Man is that car fun to watch down the track.