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WhereHaveYouBeen
07-24-2006, 10:08 PM
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060723/UPDATE/607230360



Kerry knocks Bush on handling of Mideast conflict

Valerie Olander / The Detroit News
U.S. Sen. John Kerry, D- Mass., who was in town Sunday to help Gov. Jennifer Granholm campaign for her re-election bid, took time to take a jab at the Bush administration for its lack of leadership in the Israeli-Lebanon conflict.


"If I was president, this wouldn't have happened," said Kerry during a noon stop at Honest John's bar and grill in Detroit's Cass Corridor. Bush has been so concentrated on the war in Iraq that other Middle East tension arose as a result, he said.


"The president has been so absent on diplomacy when it comes to issues affecting the Middle East," Kerry said. "We're going to have a lot of ground to make up (in 2008) because of it."


Kerry lost by a narrow margin to Bush in 2004 and plans to seek the Democratic nomination for the presidency in 2008.


Today marks the 12th day of fighting between Israel and Lebanon. Israel launched air strikes after Hezbollah militants, whom operate within Lebanon, kidnapped two Israeli soldiers in an attempt to swap them for prisoners.
Israel began a ground invasion, sending tanks and troops across the border as thousands of Lebanese have fled to escape the fighting.


Hezbollah guerillas should have been targeted with other terrorist organizations, such as al-Qaida and the Taliban, which operate in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Kerry said. However, Bush, has focused military strength on Iraq.


"This is about American security and Bush has failed. He has made it so much worse because of his lack of reality in going into Iraq.…We have to destroy Hezbollah," he said.


You can reach Valerie Olander at (517) 552 5503 or volander@detnews.com.

*sigh* Gore did the same thing when we liberated Iraq. Now look at him. Not only that, but going on the road to promote a half-wit sham of a governor? Way to kill your presidential career buddy, you won't ever be running again. HILLARY 2008! But, she's not running...not not running are to not to run not running for not president.

Sure, Kerry, if you were president we wouldn't be in the middle east. You're absolutely right! We would be caving to their demands thereby showing them that we are a weak nation ripe for the taking.


"The president has been so absent on diplomacy when it comes to issues affecting the Middle East," Kerry said. "We're going to have a lot of ground to make up (in 2008) because of it."
Right, because it's a political issue that serves only to get a democrat into the oval office, not an actual real-life problem. Every time a democrat "feels", a new terrorist is recruited.

I'm sorry, but Bush is the only diplomat that understands there's only one way to guarantee peace in the middle-east: Unleash Israel. That is exactly what's happening. Sure it would be nice to hold hands and sing songs and everyone would be happy and go sit by the Medd and work on their tans. However, that doesn't work with the terrorists. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain, which makes them very dangerous. But, we all know that.

The really awesome part is all these countries in there that are usually anti-semitic are finally getting on opposite sides with the likes of hizbollah and the rest of the militant islamo-fascist terrorists. This is the whole plan. Eventually they will turn everyone against them, thereby rooting themselves out and turning their former supporting countries against them.

*WHYB Idly sits by waiting for R.Reagan's clone to usurp Bush and retake his throne*

On a lighter note, I find it humorous that Detoilet News is based out of Lansing. What? Detroit's a nice city right? It's safe...right??? Good place to base your operations? Is that why the papers are printed and distributed from sterling heights (read: whitey-ville).

M_TYPE_X
07-25-2006, 01:46 AM
The News is printed out of the Sterling Heights facility ... off of Mound Road, I believe? Good place to do so; high-capacity roads can help the delivery trucks get the papers out faster!

Irie_eyes
07-25-2006, 08:06 PM
just like those quotes on Kosovo

WhereHaveYouBeen
07-26-2006, 12:17 AM
The News is printed out of the Sterling Heights facility ... off of Mound Road, I believe? Good place to do so; high-capacity roads can help the delivery trucks get the papers out faster!


That is correct.


POLITICS!!! :woohoorun:

SINxSELEKTAH
07-26-2006, 05:47 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v111/sinxselektah/democrats.jpg

'87 Sentra
07-26-2006, 01:38 PM
I'm sure it would be quite a different story if Lebanon was bombing Israel. If that were the case then it would be 'terrorism' and would require a prompt response.

Irie_eyes
07-26-2006, 02:21 PM
typical, nothing to discuss but **** talk

Magellan
07-26-2006, 03:29 PM
I'm sure it would be quite a different story if Lebanon was bombing Israel. If that were the case then it would be 'terrorism' and would require a prompt response.But Lebanon IS bombing Israel. Where the hell do you think all those rockets are coming from raining down on Haifa? Or perhaps you think that Hezbollah is not part of Lebanon, is not participating in its government and has not been supported by the Lebanonese all these years, and that the people have done all they could to rid their country of these Jew-hating terrorists.

WhereHaveYouBeen
07-26-2006, 04:59 PM
But Lebanon IS bombing Israel. Where the hell do you think all those rockets are coming from raining down on Haifa? Or perhaps you think that Hezbollah is not part of Lebanon, is not participating in its government and has not been supported by the Lebanonese all these years, and that the people have done all they could to rid their country of these Jew-hating terrorists.

I was going to say that as well. What do you think prompted Israel's invasion?


The organization views an Islamic republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_republic), on the Iranian model, as the ideal and eventual form of state.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] However, as their conception of an Islamic republic requires the consent of the people, and since Lebanon remains a religiously and ideologically heterogeneous society (see Demographics of Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Lebanon)), their political platform revolves around more mundane issues.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] According to their published political platform in 2003, Hezbollah favors the introduction of an Islamic government in Lebanon by peaceful democratic means.
Hezbollah supports the destruction of the state of Israel[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hisbollah#_note-58) and has co-operated with other militant Islamic organizations such as Hamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas) in order to promote this goal.
Hezbollah's ideology is based in the Shi'a tradition of Islam, specifically in the concept of "Willayat Al-Faqih" put forth by Ayatollah Khomeini and other Islamic scholars in Iran. Hezbollah seeks to set up an Islamic government in Lebanon modeled after the one in Iran.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] The following excerpt is taken from the group's political platform, first published in 1985: "The solution to Lebanon's problems is the establishment of an Islamic republic as only this type of regime can secure justice and equality for all of Lebanon's citizens." The Hizballah organization views as an important goal the fight against 'western imperialism' and its eradication from Lebanon. The group strives for complete U.S. and French withdrawal from Lebanon, including all their institutions.


The Covenant of Hamas

The 1988 Hamas Covenant (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant) (or Charter) states that the organization's goal is to "raise the banner of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah) over every inch of Palestine," in order to establish an Islamic Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Republic).
The thirty-six articles of the Covenant detail the movement's Islamist beliefs regarding the primacy of Islam in all aspects of life. The Covenant identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and considers its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." Hamas describes resisting and quelling the enemy as the individual duty of every Muslim and prescribes revolutionary roles for all members of society; including men and women, professionals, scientists and students.
The slogan of Hamas is "God is its target, the Prophet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) is its model, the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur%27an) its constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution): Jihad is its path and death for the sake of God is the loftiest of its wishes." Hamas states that its objective is to support the oppressed and wronged and "to bring about justice and defeat injustice, in word and deed." Hamas believes that "the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waqf) (trust) consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiyamah)," and as such, the land cannot be negotiated away by any political leader. Hamas rejects "so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences" as incapable of realizing justice or restoring rights to the oppressed, believing "there is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad)."
The Covenant outlines the organization's position on various issues, including social and economic development and ideological influences, education, as well as its position regarding Israel. Amongst many other things, it reiterates the group's rejection of the coexistence principle of the peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_process_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict):

Preface: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (A quote by Imam Hassan al Banna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_al_Banna))

Article 6: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned..."

Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

Article 13: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad). Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

Article 28: "The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion ... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions ..."

Article 31: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

Article 32: "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion), and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#_note-11)

Magellan
07-26-2006, 05:59 PM
I was going to say that as well. What do you think prompted Israel's invasion?In many ways, Israel is unique among all countries in the world. It is surrounded by hostile countries that want them destroyed and every Jew exterminated. The sole reasons for the existence of organizations like Hezbollah and Hamas are the destruction of Israel. They claim it openly. Negotiating with such people is not an option.

This particular war started with Hezbollah venturing into Israel to kidnap two soldiers and their decision to fire some rockets into Haifa. There was also Hamas kidnapping another Israeli soldier in Gaza. Israel concluded that it could not afford to “under react,” for if they did, matters would just escalate. The stakes are just too high. They are encircled by enemies looking for weakness. Another ingredient is Iran and Syria flexing their muscles while the U.S. is tied up in Iraq. Iran wants everyone to know they’re a world power and nobody is going to stop them from developing nuclear weapons. They also openly call for the destruction of Israel (with us infidels in America being next).

But the core issue here is best described in an analogy. Suppose some anti-American nuts in Canada decided rain rockets into Detroit every day, with the Canadian government claiming there was nothing they could do about it. What would we do? Just let Detroit be destroyed? No. We would cross the border and take those rockets out.

And in this war where, unfortunately, innocent Lebanonese are being killed every day, Israel is targeting Hezbollah strongholds for the purpose of destroying just terrorists and their ability to fire rockets; while Hezbollah on the other hand is firing those rockets for the sole purpose of murdering innocent civilians in Israel. But I guess that’s the definition of terrorism.

Replicant_s14
07-27-2006, 08:34 AM
I'm sure it would be quite a different story if Lebanon was bombing Israel.

A little different yes but probably not much. To make that parallel, Kach or some group like that would have to kidnap Lebanese soldiers. Lebanon would be forced to act but there would be some public chest beating in advance of any military response. The difference is that the Mossad would have already been busting down doors to find the kidnapped Lebanese.

...and oh, Israel acts as a state. Hezbollah does not.

'87 Sentra
07-27-2006, 01:41 PM
...and oh, Israel acts as a state. Hezbollah does not.

This is perhaps what my statement above lacked. Specifics.

Irie_eyes
07-27-2006, 01:44 PM
im sure israelis are going to get fed up with their men dying on the offensive soon.

Dave562
07-27-2006, 04:23 PM
Maybe it's about time to move Israel to somewhere else... like Northern Africa. They can still have their wonderful Mediterranian coastline, and they won't be in direct conflict with their neighbors. :rolleyes:

SukairainKupe
07-27-2006, 07:31 PM
I'd shut up if I were Kerry, because it's his fault George Bush is the president of United States.

M_TYPE_X
07-28-2006, 01:19 AM
I'd shut up if I were Kerry, because it's his fault George Bush is the president of United States.

:D

Replicant_s14
07-28-2006, 07:51 AM
Maybe it's about time to move Israel to somewhere else... like Northern Africa. They can still have their wonderful Mediterranian coastline, and they won't be in direct conflict with their neighbors. :rolleyes:


Northern Africa? :eek:

WhereHaveYouBeen
07-28-2006, 10:41 AM
Maybe it's about time to move Israel to somewhere else... like Northern Africa. They can still have their wonderful Mediterranian coastline, and they won't be in direct conflict with their neighbors. :rolleyes:

Why should they leave?

Dave562
07-28-2006, 06:02 PM
Why should they leave?

Because they haven't followed the regulations and obligations that were established in the charter that established their state in the first place.

I think that the "Holy Land" needs to be cleared out and administered by the UN. The Israeli's proved that they can't live peacefully alongside the Palestinian's. The Palestinian's can't live with the Israeli's. The place can't be razed into the ground because it is oh so super duper special to the two religions. The only other choice is to remove control from both parties who want control and give control to a neutral third party who realizes that the whining over imaginary deities and fighting and violence over a peace of land is a stupid waste of life.

Magellan
07-28-2006, 07:26 PM
Because they haven't followed the regulations and obligations that were established in the charter that established their state in the first place.

I think that the "Holy Land" needs to be cleared out and administered by the UN. The Israeli's proved that they can't live peacefully alongside the Palestinian's. The Palestinian's can't live with the Israeli's. The place can't be razed into the ground because it is oh so super duper special to the two religions. The only other choice is to remove control from both parties who want control and give control to a neutral third party who realizes that the whining over imaginary deities and fighting and violence over a peace of land is a stupid waste of life.I wasn’t going to respond to your ridiculous posts, but once again, you’re so far off the wall I don’t know where to start:

• Israel was partitioned by the UN as an independent state in 1948. I know of no UN regulations or written obligations attached to it.
• The holy land is important to many religions, not just to “the two religions,” Judaism and Islam. Ever hear of Christianity?
• The Israelis lived in that land as an independent state over 5,000 years ago, before Islam was ever formed, so their rights to the area are well-founded.
• The UN is incapable of administering anything. What a ridiculous idea.
• The real reason the two sides cannot conclude a two-state solution is because the Palestinians don’t want one; they’re holding out for the complete annihilation of Israel and the taking of all the land for themselves.
• In that respect, I don’t think the Jews favor being moved to Africa, where your UN sits idly by while millions of Africans starve, die of AIDS or are murdered by tribal warfare.
• And once again, it is Israelis not Israeli’s, and it is Palestinians not Palestinian’s unless you're talking about the possessive case. Haven’t we covered these basic rules of punctuation before?

WhereHaveYouBeen
07-28-2006, 09:12 PM
Because they haven't followed the regulations and obligations that were established in the charter that established their state in the first place.

I think that the "Holy Land" needs to be cleared out and administered by the UN. The Israeli's proved that they can't live peacefully alongside the Palestinian's. The Palestinian's can't live with the Israeli's. The place can't be razed into the ground because it is oh so super duper special to the two religions. The only other choice is to remove control from both parties who want control and give control to a neutral third party who realizes that the whining over imaginary deities and fighting and violence over a peace of land is a stupid waste of life.
So let me get this straight. You believe the Jews were unlawfully placed in Israel therein forcing out the palestinians. Which, you think is wrong. However, you support relocating the Jews yet again and forcing some "North Africans" (I guess North Africa is a magical desert land occupied only by Alladin, and a Robin Williams version of a genie, and no countries) out of their homes in favor of the Jews? Wouldn't that just be relocating the palestinians problem to someone else? Why don't you just come out and say you want to exterminate the Jews?

I'm with Magellan on this one.

I don't even know what logical thing to say to Dave. I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to insult you by saying this...AND I mean this in the nicest way, but you are wholly ignorant of the situation. In all kindness, you NEED to go read up on it. Here, I'll get you going.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

Condensed: The Jews have been persecuted from that land for a very very long time. Judaism is the oldest religion based on the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were written in the 2nd Century B.C.

Seriously dude, Information is key. Read the facts first and then form your opinions. Don't simply repeat what the NY Times, or CNN, or FOX News tells you.

Best Wishes!

Dave562
07-30-2006, 02:16 AM
You guys are right that I needed to do some more reading and research. The entire situation is a complete cluster-**** and to take any side in the situation is just wrong. I'm not pro-Palestinian or anti-Israeli, but I do think that there are better solutions to the problem than arming Israel and letting them wage war. In an over populated world, the Israelis are trying to build a wall around themselves. There isn't any place to run to.

It's all so sad and unnecessarily complicated. I can't really even begin to comprehend the hate and the anamosity that drives a conflict like that for centuries. It's a complete waste of life and resources.

As for moving the Jews to Africa, that was a joke.

I think that the Jewish people are in a tough situation. My sympathies are with everyone in the region who is caught in the crossfire of religious extremism. I hope that their conflict doesn't bring down the rest of civilization with it.

I don't think that we're going to win the "War on Terror" like we won the war against the Axis powers. We aren't going to win it with guns and bombs. The only way to win it, and settle it once and for all is to bring everyone up, and not knock one side down. Unfortunately that train of thought can only work when you're dealing with rational people and as has been mentioned, when one side wants to drive the other off the face of the planet, they aren't rational.

I have to believe that those irrational people are just a small subset of the majority. The may be the subset in power, but the rest of the society has to see some sort of hope in them to continue supporting them. I've been trying to figure out what that hope is... what it is that groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are offering to the Lebonese and the Palestinians.

From what I've read I know that some of it has to do with settlements and the buffer zones that Israel has setup to defend themselves. Unfortunately they happened to wipe out a bunch of good farm land, and they managed to disenfranchise a bunch of Palestinians. What I don't get is why the Palestinians think that the only way to get the land back is through violence and force. The only thing that I can figure is that it's dangerous to be a Palestinian who suggests forging alliances with the West is a good idea. And that has to come down to religion, and "making a deal with the devil" and all that. Yet even so, one might realize that if the devil can feed you, and provide for you, then maybe the devil really isn't the devil.

But if the devil is providing bombs and tanks and death, then maybe the devil really is the devil.

I could go round and round in circles around the point all night but what it comes down to is... violence isn't going to solve the problem. If it were going to, it would have by now.

WhereHaveYouBeen
07-30-2006, 12:08 PM
As for moving the Jews to Africa, that was a joke.


K.


Yes, the whole situation is completely f**ked.

The war for this holy land has not stopped for centuries. I hope it does someday, but some people just have it built up in their minds that the land belongs to one religion. It belongs to God, not us nor to any one religion. Unfortunately, the only plausible solution I see is one big war to end them all. Just one fell swoop to end the debacle. I don't like it as much as the next guy, but I can't deny its effectiveness.

Two questions always pop up in my head whenever someone either argues with me or talks to me about the whole conflict regarding Islam and the Israelis:

1. Why are you fighting for Israel's land? You say it's holy land, yet you choose to shed blood for it on an almost daily basis. Isn't Mecca the holy city in Islam?

2. Do you honestly believe in your heart that God want's us fighting over dirt? God gave us the land to live off of. God is in our hearts and our soul's, not in the ground we walk on. We're taught to cast off possessions.


However, Hamas, Hizbollah, and the PLO all say that they want the destruction of Israel and the Israelis. I often wonder if it's really about that or for the land.


I remember seeing a protest in Harlem on CNN a few years ago. A group of black people, no surprise led by cam-***** extraordinaire Al Sharpton, were protesting foreign-owned businesses in Harlem. Specifically, they were pissed about an asian-owned (they called it asian because I guess asia is a country from which all non-mexicans come from /sarcasm) convenience store. Now, everyone has the same opportunity to open their own business. If you dont like that the store is owned by "asians," then open up another store on a corner, announce that it is black owned, and drive the other store out of business so that another black person can buy it. You can do anything you want in this country, but nothing is guaranteed to you just because you were born here. That's what sets America apart from everybody else.


I hope I'm making sense, I just woke up.

Magellan
07-30-2006, 08:16 PM
I hope I'm making sense, I just woke up.Your analogy makes sense to me. So-called black leaders like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson make a living out of telling black people that they’re all victims; victims of racism and the great white bigot, and that black people cannot make it in America because the system is rigged against them. Then some “Asians” step off the boat nearly penniless, start viable business and eventually prosper. They ignore racism by doing an end-run around it. Al Sharpton can say nothing more than complain about foreign-own business stealing resources from poor, black victims. It’s often called the “victicrat” mentality.

The Arab world is doing close to the same thing with the Jews. There are no democracies in any Arab country or Iran; they are run by dictators, kings, religious extremists, or presidents-for-life. Their economies are dismal, personal freedoms are scarce and living conditions are extremely poor. So, to stay in power the governments blame it on the Jews, Israel and America for supporting them. Islamic fascists, just like the Nazis did in the 1930’s, teach their children from a very early age that all Jews are evil, a curse on the world, and everything would be OK if they just didn’t exist. This is where we get Al Qaeda, Hamas, and Huzbollah, who make a living spouting these doctrines.

The difficulty is that if all the Jews were somehow eliminated from the face of the earth, the problems these Islamic countries have would still exist; it would not change a thing. The Palestinians would still be living in camps in the Holy Land; there would be no human rights in Arab countries; and two-bit dictators would still suppress their people who would continue to live in squalor.

But they would now need to assign a new enemy for annihilation, and I’m afraid that would be us.

M_TYPE_X
07-30-2006, 11:14 PM
But they would now need to assign a new enemy for annihilation, and I’m afraid that would be us.

Freedom for Palestine is bad business for America?

WhereHaveYouBeen
07-31-2006, 01:24 AM
Freedom for Palestine is bad business for America?

Have you BEEN to Harlem?

Magellan
07-31-2006, 11:44 AM
Freedom for Palestine is bad business for America?No, you missed the point. If Israel was out of the picture and Palestine was an independent state, the Arab world would have to assign a new scapegoat for their troubles, and that would be us.

M_TYPE_X
08-01-2006, 01:38 AM
No, you missed the point. If Israel was out of the picture and Palestine was an independent state, the Arab world would have to assign a new scapegoat for their troubles, and that would be us.

I didn't miss the point, I was marking it.

Dave562
08-01-2006, 02:06 AM
Freedom for Palestine is bad business for America?

That depends on whether or not you buy into the "Military Industrial Complex." But even with Palestine taken care of, there are plenty of other bad guys to save the world from.

Irie_eyes
08-03-2006, 01:03 AM
No, you missed the point. If Israel was out of the picture and Palestine was an independent state, the Arab world would have to assign a new scapegoat for their troubles, and that would be us.

I doubt it. they'll just kill each other off.