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Kim_Jong_Il
02-08-2007, 08:36 PM
Wilwood released a superlite 4piston, 13" 2piece rotor, kit for 5 lug 240s.

Have seen the complete front setup for under 1000 already. Awesome.

http://wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Pages/04/index.asp
http://wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Pages/04/FSL4_lrg.gif

Racingswh
02-08-2007, 08:44 PM
That is nice. Very good price.

sr20goofus
02-08-2007, 10:40 PM
that picture is a 6pot tho....


are the wilwoods really neccessary, i have had trouble determining if these huge brake setups that everyone seems to be thrilled about are really neccessary on a car as light as the 240....especially when a large % of the people on these boards will never drive their cars hard enough to need brakes this big.

i know with the right pad and fluid setup the 300zx brakes are more than enough in an S13 or even an S14.

they do look nice, but i cant justify paying $1k for a front brake setup when people have been designing their own brackets for larger brakes.

cdlong
02-09-2007, 12:07 AM
are the wilwoods really neccessary?

no. but they look pretty and people can brag about how big their rotors are on the internet.

Racingswh
02-09-2007, 12:14 AM
are the wilwoods really neccessary,

i know with the right pad and fluid setup the 300zx brakes are more than enough in an S13 or even an S14.



I don't know.

It will be interesting to see if your brakes continue to be up to the test as you get faster and faster.

Doluck
02-09-2007, 12:28 AM
I use the 300z calipers, custome rotors drilled for me(4-lug) and the 15/16" master.......omg... my car stops hard without locking up! track times went down almost 10s from the stock brakes!
I think thats all you need! and its way under $1000....... hell I sell the kits on Ebay for $425 .. with calipers and 4 or 5 lug rotors and the steel lines...

modreadz
02-09-2007, 12:44 AM
I wonder if those pistons have dust shields. I'd hate to rebuild those often. As for buying bigger brakes, I doubt the weekend road racer would really need it. I think 300zx brakes with a good set of pads is all there is to it. Hmm... 12" rotor vs a 300zx 11" rotor. Hrmm... well I do lock up my 300zx brakes. In the long run the 300zx brakes will be cheaper to maintain and they do provide a lot of bang for the buck.

gsracer
02-09-2007, 01:10 AM
I think you guys are looking at this subjectivly.

I had spl lines z brakes, good pads good fluid, properly bled yada yada , and i would get fade on hard street driving.

Point is I am very hard on the brakes, while some of you are not.

I think this will vary from driver to driver to much to say that z brakes is more than sufficeient would be incorrect.

I have yet to fade my current brembo set up despite my best efforts, and believe me Ive tried.

Waynehead
02-09-2007, 01:14 AM
^ fronts and rears or just fronts?

^ what's your set up?

gsracer
02-09-2007, 01:20 AM
previous or current

Waynehead
02-09-2007, 01:21 AM
both actually

s14rhd
02-09-2007, 01:21 AM
I'll leave my stock jdm s14 brakes with good fluid and genuine race pads, have a racebrake shop locally that will gaurantee you won't out brake the car even on the track. I would say if you were getting fade its because the pads weren't up to it.

gsracer
02-09-2007, 01:25 AM
previous was z32 front and rear with hawk pads spl lines dot 4 fluid

current cadillac cts brembo 4 piston with 12.6 cryoed evo rotors, with hawk pads, z32 rears with stock rotors and hawk pads and stainless lines

sr20goofus
02-09-2007, 07:29 AM
I don't know.

It will be interesting to see if your brakes continue to be up to the test as you get faster and faster.

Track experiences with 300zx brakes.

well so far this past season i ran Carbotech XP10 pads (very agressive track pad) and I was able to reach speed over 135mph on the front strait at Summit Point, Braking at around 3rd marker, i never got brake fade once. I know my speeds are only going to increase, but so far i cant lock up these brakes when they are matched with my 245 Hoosiers.

some people talk about getting fade on the street and such but i find that really hard to believe when i cant do it slowing down HARD in a very compressed braking zone, tho i do have some great pads on the car.

The pad to to tire combination in crucial here people, most dont realize that....a very agressive pad with crappy tires will yeild alot of locking up...u dont want to lock uo your brakes. And a decent tire with Hawk HPS or HP+ pad will giv eyou brake fade prolly, on the street i dont know how, but im sure it does cause the Hawk pads are more designed for Auto-X use.



On the subject of rebuilding the Wilwoods, usually wilwood uses gromets and such on teh inside of the caliper that clean the pistons off, no real dust boost, but they will last alot longer than most people think, maybe not to the factory piston time, but a decent bit of time i am sure.

Kim_Jong_Il
02-09-2007, 08:37 AM
A lot of people are trying to fumble around with JDM aftermarket calipers and fitting Z and evo brembos, spending a bunch of money doing so. Here is the solution. Whether they need it or not isn't the point.

I've heard that about wilwoods and their dust seals for years now, and I've yet to hear anyone complain that they wish they had dust seals. Sounds like a non-issue with proper upkeep.

That and I'm sure these are much lighter than Z-brakes. Yay, unsprung weight! I have Z-brakes all around, early 30mm aluminum version, those suckers aren't ligh t. Especially the heavy stock rotors. A lot of weight to be cut with a 2-piece rotor utilizing an aluminum hat.

Magilla
02-09-2007, 06:43 PM
anyone have an idea of the difference in weight? Wilwood vs 300z

Danimal
02-11-2007, 05:05 AM
If you want extra sexy time at a very good price please check out

http://www.arizonazcar.com/240sxbrakes.html

The smaller set is under $800 and will stand you on your nose while standing up to just about anything you throw at them. Good stuff and while blingy, they are functional AND available for 4 lugs!!!

johnc
02-11-2007, 10:06 AM
When one comes to decide if you should go with wilwoods
or the brembos overall piston diameter should be considered
When I had a WRX , the eu spec WRX that came with the 4pot, I wanted to
upgrade my brake system to the offered wilwood front and rear kit which
consisted of front 6pot and rear 4pot I ended up going with the STI brembo upgrade.
The reason for this decision was a conversation I had with girodisc founder, ex Brembo or AP
racing engineer. He informed me that the piston diameter of the STI 4pot was bigger then the
6pot wilwoods piston diameter and that I should keep to brembo.
Piston diameter is not everything I know but it is a major factor. If you look at the wilwood 6pot
you will see that not all pistons are sized equally hence a smaller overall diameter.
One big advantage the wilwoods have is the caliper weight. not a huge difference but still.
When It came to choosing brakes for my s14 I opted to use the STI brembos once again although
I seriously considered the custom wilwood path and AZ brakes path .
besides, gold calipers have a bigger bling factor :cool:
Wilwood are $1K for standard rotors and $1.2K for drilled/slotted.
The setup below will cost around 1K. $500 for used calipers (usually come with pads) $100 for bracket (or less) and ~$400 left for rotors and misc.
Not much of a difference so It is up to you.


the z32 brakes are OE brakes for the S14 over here so I started with this:
http://www.driftclub-il.com/johnc/Nissan/Brakes/brakes.jpg
and ended up with this: (pay no attention to my cheep wheels :-) )
http://www.driftclub-il.com/johnc/Nissan/Brakes/brakes13.jpg

bks14sr
02-11-2007, 04:15 PM
I was debating on going with the wilwood setup or the r33 gts-t calipers w/ 350z track rotors. I ended up finding a really good deal on r33 calipers all around, so I went that path. For my whole setup including the calipers, rebuild kits, Hawk pads, SPL lines, Proslot front z33 track rotors, ebrake assembly, and DOT 4 fluid, I have just over $800 in to it. I couldnt see spending more than that for just a front set up and most likely having similar performance. Just my .02

smracing
02-12-2007, 12:56 AM
A lot of people are trying to fumble around with JDM aftermarket calipers and fitting Z and evo brembos, spending a bunch of money doing so. Here is the solution. Whether they need it or not isn't the point.

That and I'm sure these are much lighter than Z-brakes. Yay, unsprung weight! I have Z-brakes all around, early 30mm aluminum version, those suckers aren't ligh t. Especially the heavy stock rotors. A lot of weight to be cut with a 2-piece rotor utilizing an aluminum hat.

Good point. The z calipers are fine. The best bet may be the lighter rotors. All you have to do is pick a rotor with a close diameter, then measure for hat offset. Hats are about $100 each, rotors close to the same. I have Supra rotors with z32 aluminum calipers on the street car. HEAVY!

codyace
02-12-2007, 02:58 AM
On a nice hot summer track day, I did begin to experience some fade with my Iron Z32 front, Stock rear,Carbotech Panther+ pads F&R, and Z31 master cylinder.

Would I have experienced fade with perhaps better brake fluid and or a more agressive (XP-10 per say) pad? Unsure, but when you're going 120-130+ more often at a smaller track, and needing your brakes to make the corner, you're going to be stressing every last inch of brake you have. At longer tracks (like the Glen) you have more time to 'cool off' your brakes on the longer sections than persay Pocono North.

Also (as said) the weight reduction would also be nice. I have OEM replacemtn rotors, and the Iron 4 pots, and those bad chickens are hea-vay.

With that said however, I will not be changing my brake setup in the near future. The one time I expereinced some fade was not enough to convince me to need new breaks...better fluid and and one step mroe agressive pads though, yes.

_Def_
02-13-2007, 09:06 AM
Panther+ pads are not up to the task of track driving with more than about NA KA power...

Brake fluid doesn't influence pad fade one bit... fluid boil will cause your pedal to drop, very different.


Your braking requirements are also based on your AVERAGE POWER OUTPUT, not WEIGHT when at the track.

sr20goofus
02-13-2007, 09:40 AM
Your braking requirements are also based on your AVERAGE POWER OUTPUT, not WEIGHT when at the track.

now Def correct me if im am wrong but wont a 3400lb Mustang need more brakes to slow down than a 2400lb Honda....even if both have 300whp...the heavier car carries mroe momentum there for needs more force to stop the car. Pads do make a HUGE difference, but size of rotors and caliper pistons sizes and all that jazz come into effect, but overall stopping power is dramatically affected by carried weight.

TS4l
02-13-2007, 10:30 AM
I have to add that the ArizonaZcar brakes are great. Here are some pictures I posted a few months back when I installed them on my car. And this picture was before I swtched to rotors so they rotate in the correct direction now.
Rotor comparison
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/TS4l/Brake2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/TS4l/Brake1.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/TS4l/Brake4.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f59/TS4l/Wheel3.jpg

SequenceGarage
02-13-2007, 12:12 PM
ya i would only upgrade my fronts if i was upgrading the rears as well

best way to keep brake balance right so that minimum tuning is needed.

on my car at mosport the brakes would last forever - obviously. you only need to brake for a few corners.

at shannonville a tight techincal track with short straights and very tight corners you need to use a lot of brake, and my brakes were cooking, boiling fluid etc etc etc.

you can always keep upgrading pads to sold pad fade, but at a certain point even with ducting you will need larger rotors and a bigger caliper to disperse enough heat to not boil the FLUID.

now the question is what hp and weight and downforce levels does that come into question?

im not sure.. im thinking im getting close on RA1s weighing 2800lbs and having about 320whp. this year i'll be lighter, but i'll also have more downforce. will it even out?

and if you do not want to use super aggressive pads then big brakes really are needed, since thats the only way to avoid cooking the streetable pads. this is why i think most high end manufactures use huge brakes on street cars. to use a conservitive pad without having it destroy itself at the track

for a race car in sprint raaces or time attack you can get away with super aggressive pads and stock calipesr NO problem. the problems arise in longer races and if you want to have a street and lapping car in one without changing pads at the track

anyways back on topic

those wilwoods are nice but id go with teh arizona z car setup because they have rears as well

Broaner
02-13-2007, 04:57 PM
and if you do not want to use super aggressive pads then big brakes really are needed, since thats the only way to avoid cooking the streetable pads. this is why i think most high end manufactures use huge brakes on street cars. to use a conservitive pad without having it destroy itself at the track

for a race car in sprint raaces or time attack you can get away with super aggressive pads and stock calipesr NO problem. the problems arise in longer races and if you want to have a street and lapping car in one without changing pads at the track
Both are awesome points.


To play devils advocate to the original dispute I'd like to reiterate that it seems to me that quite often people leave out or overlook the unsprung and rotational weight factors. The extremely low pricetag of $1k or even $1300 is a serious bargain for gaining so much in the form of weight reduction.

I'm sure a large portion of the big brake customers will never need the hardware that they have. But that doesn't mean that it should automatically be assumed that people who opt for these brake options are stupid, naive or over-boisterous. Sure, we've all seen the idiots that get these various kits and brag all over but that doesn't mean we all have to be lumped in with them.

I really like the Arizona setup for its matching front and rear setup both asthetically and dimensionally. My only qualm being that he hat design is kinda fugly although it appears to be very beast to resist distortion. The Arizona piston diameters are:
Front 6 pot pistons are 1.61" 1.12" 1.12" (The larger trailing piston seems like an awesome advantage to me in the event that one would run into any form of fade or outgasing. Even this is inconcievable to me in a 2500lbs car.)

The rear 4-pot psitons are 1.38"


What is the rotor thickness and piston diameters of the newly discovered kit?

And to those who question fade on the street I must ask about your driving style. I've gotten rotors glowing red on numerous occasions on the "street". Was I driving to work or in heavy traffic? No. But again, similar to my previous comments, just because it hasn't happened to a person shouldn't allow one to assume it isn't possible.

_Def_
02-13-2007, 07:19 PM
now Def correct me if im am wrong but wont a 3400lb Mustang need more brakes to slow down than a 2400lb Honda....even if both have 300whp...the heavier car carries mroe momentum there for needs more force to stop the car. Pads do make a HUGE difference, but size of rotors and caliper pistons sizes and all that jazz come into effect, but overall stopping power is dramatically affected by carried weight.

Not around a track - power in = power out. You are only disipating as much energy as you can put into the car in the form of kinetic energy every lap, which comes from yo' mota.

Assuming both make the same average power, both will need the same braking capability.


Now, on the street the heavier car will need larger brakes because you're typically talking about stopping the car from the same speed in the same frequency as the smaller car. So given that weight linearly increases kinetic energy, you need larger brakes.

Racingswh
02-13-2007, 07:31 PM
Not around a track - power in = power out. You are only disipating as much energy as you can put into the car in the form of kinetic energy every lap, which comes from yo' mota.

So the faster you are going the more brakes you need.

As lap times fall braking requirements are increased.

Racingswh
02-13-2007, 07:35 PM
Oh but for the heavier car turning comparable lap times the heavier car requires more brakes. It's making more power to go as fast as the lighter car. This is correct isn't it?

_Def_
02-14-2007, 12:09 AM
For the most part yea. An E39 M5 hitting the same speeds on a straight as stripped out Civic is obviously going to need more brakes, because it put in a lot more energy to get up to that speed, and has to shed all that energy to get back down to the corner entry speed.

SequenceGarage
02-14-2007, 02:20 PM
i never relized that def thats a cool way of lookign at it

heavy car will go slower but require the same energy to slow down as the lighter equally powered car

gangster

TurDz
02-16-2007, 11:35 PM
Not around a track - power in = power out. You are only disipating as much energy as you can put into the car in the form of kinetic energy every lap, which comes from yo' mota.


You're tossing around the word kinetic energy, and it sounds like you may know the equation but I'm a bit confused by your claim..

kinetic energy has everything to do with the speed you're going at, and not the amount of power you're making.

Horsepower is just power, which is the rate of work done, right? Horsepower has nothing to do with stopping...mass and velocity do. If both cars are going at the same speed, it requires more energy dissipation for the heavier car to slow down to the same speed as the lighter car. Mass has EVERYTHING do do with braking performance...

SequenceGarage
02-17-2007, 03:47 PM
the whole point is that a heavier car WOULDNT be going the same speed

because we're holding power constant

_Def_
02-17-2007, 07:29 PM
You're tossing around the word kinetic energy, and it sounds like you may know the equation but I'm a bit confused by your claim..

kinetic energy has everything to do with the speed you're going at, and not the amount of power you're making.

Horsepower is just power, which is the rate of work done, right? Horsepower has nothing to do with stopping...mass and velocity do. If both cars are going at the same speed, it requires more energy dissipation for the heavier car to slow down to the same speed as the lighter car. Mass has EVERYTHING do do with braking performance...

hahaha - yes, I know the equation for kinetic energy.

So the point is, you'll gain kinetic energy equal with the rate of work you are inputing into the car accelerating(i.e. your HP). So around a track, you can assume it's a closed system, and any energy going into making the car move forward will eventually be dissipated by the brakes and other frictional forces(which are minor). Hence - braking requirements dictated by power.


Just like how you see ginormous brakes on very light sports car prototypes and the like that are making 500-600hp.

lewroe
02-17-2007, 07:48 PM
My 12.75" braking system.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/lewroe/240brakes008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/lewroe/240brakes009.jpg
the before and during pic from before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/lewroe/240brakes005.jpg
and the 315's on the rear.....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v451/lewroe/240brakes015.jpg

TurDz
02-17-2007, 08:07 PM
hahaha - yes, I know the equation for kinetic energy.

So the point is, you'll gain kinetic energy equal with the rate of work you are inputing into the car accelerating(i.e. your HP). So around a track, you can assume it's a closed system, and any energy going into making the car move forward will eventually be dissipated by the brakes and other frictional forces(which are minor). Hence - braking requirements dictated by power.


Just like how you see ginormous brakes on very light sports car prototypes and the like that are making 500-600hp.
I agree that power is key factor, but only because it produces work, *edit* which leads to speed. *edit*

Power does not matter. Since power is rate of work, even if you had 50 hp compared to 300 hp, with enough time, you can achieve the same amount of (realistic) speed in that 50 hp compared to 300 hp.

Light sports cars only have large brakes because of the extreme speeds (through acceleration) they can achieve. If the car had 500hp, weighed 1000 lb, but was limited to 50 mph, those 8-pot brakes would never be needed.

I can see your relation with horsepower and the speed you can achieve with it, but as I said before, braking force required is based purely on speed & mass, not horsepower.

TurDz
02-17-2007, 08:23 PM
the whole point is that a heavier car WOULDNT be going the same speed

because we're holding power constant

Who says it couldn't go the same speed? I'm sure it would, but just as we all know, weight affects acceleration. It would just take longer for that heavier car to do so. Once it does, and both cars start braking at the same point, how much more energy (in the form of heat) would the heavier car have to dissipate?

More Horsepower only allows you to achieve speeds at a faster rate, and also helps you achieve a higher top speed. The reason a car would need larger brakes is because of that high speed it can generate in a short amount of time, not because of its horsepower.

SequenceGarage
02-17-2007, 08:53 PM
sorry guys we should make this more clear

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RACING ON A TRACK

when the straightaways are only so long

ericb382
02-17-2007, 08:56 PM
edit *sorry^^ beat me to it*

he's talking about in a realalistic situation. what does anyone on here a 1000 lb car w/ 500 hp that is limited to 50 mph? I think off the wall hypothetical situations are not necessary to determine what is neccessary/beneficial for our applications.


500hp, weighed 1000 lb, but was limited to 50 mph, those 8-pot brakes would never be needed.


Again, realalistic situations, ie a track. Both vehicles will have the same distance to get up to speed and to slow down for the next corner.


Who says it couldn't go the same speed? I'm sure it would, but just as we all know, weight affects acceleration. It would just take longer for that heavier car to do so.

Also since the heavier car takes longer to get up to speed in your scenario, the brakes have longer to cool

turtl631
02-17-2007, 09:03 PM
Man, just read his post carefully. You guys all think you're arguing against him, and you're just reinforcing his point. It would take the heavier car longer to reach the speed of the lighter car; since the straight isn't endless, it will be going slower than the lighter car at any given point. This may be a more intricate way of looking at this than the typical forumspeak, but come on, its not that complicated if you under the very basics of kinematics, which you should know anyways if you're trying to build a track car.

_Def_
02-18-2007, 01:34 PM
I agree that power is key factor, but only because it produces work, *edit* which leads to speed. *edit*

Power does not matter. Since power is rate of work, even if you had 50 hp compared to 300 hp, with enough time, you can achieve the same amount of (realistic) speed in that 50 hp compared to 300 hp.

Light sports cars only have large brakes because of the extreme speeds (through acceleration) they can achieve. If the car had 500hp, weighed 1000 lb, but was limited to 50 mph, those 8-pot brakes would never be needed.

I can see your relation with horsepower and the speed you can achieve with it, but as I said before, braking force required is based purely on speed & mass, not horsepower.

Read my post again, I'm talking about a TRACK, and I clearly state as such. When else would you need big brakes with a great deal of thermal mass except when repeatedly braking after long periods of WOT?

Believe me, I know all about kinetic energy and the engineering applications relating to it, so look beyond the surface approach of the equation and actually *THINK* about what kind of real world results and constraints you get from applying formulas and equations to real life.

okashira
02-20-2007, 11:14 PM
hahaha - yes, I know the equation for kinetic energy.

So the point is, you'll gain kinetic energy equal with the rate of work you are inputing into the car accelerating(i.e. your HP). So around a track, you can assume it's a closed system, and any energy going into making the car move forward will eventually be dissipated by the brakes and other frictional forces(which are minor). Hence - braking requirements dictated by power.


Just like how you see ginormous brakes on very light sports car prototypes and the like that are making 500-600hp.

No, he is right. Kind of.

The heavier car with the same power as the lighter car will still require more brakes because the heavier car can put more power to the ground.

And the lighter car will turn the corner faster, reducing the amt. of braking nessicary, right? ;)

also, relativley, the lighter car will be more influenced by air resistance, furthur reducing braking requirments.

cdlong
02-21-2007, 12:41 AM
those are pretty minor factors. it's just a rule of thumb. don't read into it too much.

_Def_
02-21-2007, 11:11 AM
No, he is right. Kind of.

The heavier car with the same power as the lighter car will still require more brakes because the heavier car can put more power to the ground.

And the lighter car will turn the corner faster, reducing the amt. of braking nessicary, right? ;)

also, relativley, the lighter car will be more influenced by air resistance, furthur reducing braking requirments.

VERY minor factors IMO.

I think you'd be surprised to see that some heavier cars with a lot of tire and good suspension geometry can corner as good or better than lighter cars. I know that a 911 GT3 will wax a Lotus Elise around many types of corners, and it definitely weighs more.

dangle01
02-25-2007, 11:22 AM
I have just over $800 in to it. I couldnt see spending more than that for just a front set up and most likely having similar performance. Just my .02

:eek: I can't believe you spent 8Bills for an R33 Gts-T setup. I have the same set up and cost me 400 for everything!!

bks14sr
02-25-2007, 05:43 PM
:eek: I can't believe you spent 8Bills for an R33 Gts-T setup. I have the same set up and cost me 400 for everything!!

So you spent 400 on complete front and rear setup, including spl ss lines, proslot track rotors, z32 mc, complete ebrake assem., new hawk pads, rebuild kits, and powder coating. I would've had 400 into them if I just bought the calipers, stock rotors, ebrake assem., mc. I guess you just know the right people.

Nikeboy355
02-25-2007, 11:22 PM
So what are the limits of the stock calipers for the track?
For lets say a 240SX with 350HP and 245 tires...

OppositeLock
02-25-2007, 11:34 PM
I don't know if many people on this forum would require 13" of rotor. It's a lot of rotational inertia to overcome, so turn-in would probably suffer. It's also a lot of unsprung weight to add. However, I also have no experience over 100mph so what the hell do I know, honestly?

I have the Arizona Z-car 12.2" kit front and rear, modified by me to fit aftermarket FLCAs. I'm guessing the Wilwood kit would have the same problem and wouldn't be so easy to fix. I like the kit but wish the lines were 2" longer. Pad changes are cake; pull out cotter, replace pads, replace cotter. Total time: depends on whether or not you have to even take the wheel off.

I only do short, braking-intensive tracks where I can maximize my meager horsepower. I also do hard mountain driving. The AZCar brakes are absolutely stellar. I'm still not sure if I've ever reached the maximum with them... I run track pads and the grip is just insanity. I feel like I can brake deeper than anything out there, and I don't run with slouches. Bias with the full kit is surprisingly equal, so equal that I've not been bothered to install my bias valve.

As far as longevity goes, there are people out there with 5+ years on their Wilwoods without a rebuild and they're still going strong.

Racingswh
02-26-2007, 07:42 AM
So what are the limits of the stock calipers for the track?
For lets say a 240SX with 350HP and 245 tires...

Depending on the length of the track I would say 2 to 3 laps at a serious pace regardless of brake pad choice.

Broaner
02-26-2007, 10:56 AM
I have the Arizona Z-car 12.2" kit front and rear, modified by me to fit aftermarket FLCAs.
I'm really interested to hear what you mean by this. Which FLCA's do you have? Do you think the 13" rotors will not clear aftermarket FLCA's? Where is the clearance problem?

LigouriRd
02-26-2007, 02:11 PM
I'm really interested to hear what you mean by this. Which FLCA's do you have? Do you think the 13" rotors will not clear aftermarket FLCA's? Where is the clearance problem? -x2. So far I have the rear Arizona kit installed but haven't installed the front yet.

PS: How/where/did you install the proportioning valve?

Ahhsk
02-26-2007, 10:47 PM
as im searching FA for my AP caliper PN I found this post and felt I should reply.

I had 14" up front no issue

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Ahhsk/PICT0014.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Ahhsk/DSC01968.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Ahhsk/wilwood_rear_13.jpg

****ty pic 13.5 with dynalites and hydraulic ebrake

Kim_Jong_Il
02-26-2007, 11:38 PM
You're back from the dead. How's the new car coming along?

Broaner
02-27-2007, 11:00 AM
For a while I was obsessed with AP and I guess I still respect their stuff a whole lot. I just can't spend $3K on front brakes alone. Did you piece together that front setup or was it a kit from somewhere?

Ahhsk
02-27-2007, 12:20 PM
I bought it through $tillen.

But have since steered away from the "kits"

[thread jack]
Charlie,

I have a new project car hehe, not really its my daily driver but its pretty and she's getting big brakes, thats it I swear. Im going to hang out with russ on friday maybe he can get a pic for me.

You still in jersey? wanna see strippers with big hair!!![/thread jack]

Kim_Jong_Il
02-27-2007, 02:06 PM
New project, hmm... Z06? You down south again? Tell Russ he's a dirty hooker.

Yes still in Jersey, until about October of this year then I'll be out of the country again for a few years. Looks like either Japan again, China, Dubai, or Bahrain. Anyway it goes I'll be happy.

<--- Threadjacking like it just don't matter because, a) it's my thread & b)I'm a mod, hahaha

Ahhsk
02-27-2007, 06:28 PM
Im working out the details of a radial bracket for the E38 (740) [ that was almost on topic ehh?]

here is a crappy phone pic, 740 sport pkg, All im doing is swapping out the corner lights for the amber free lenses front and rear, I have Eibach springs at home, and the AP brakes, thats it nothing else, maybe tint, and updated NAV, Ipod +nav intergration then thats it!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/Ahhsk/BMWinFlorida.jpg

Kim_Jong_Il
02-27-2007, 06:49 PM
Hot, Looks like Florida, you down there now?

Ahhsk
02-27-2007, 08:34 PM
Heck yeah! good lord the amount of horny older rich chicks here is amazing!! They prefer slots to cross drilling 2:1 btw.

Osc

Kim_Jong_Il
02-27-2007, 09:45 PM
Rules hard don't it. If you're in Dade I'll let you know next time I'm down that way.

Ahhsk
02-28-2007, 09:49 AM
**** yeah!

LigouriRd
02-28-2007, 02:55 PM
Ahem


I'm really interested to hear what you mean by this. Which FLCA's do you have? Do you think the 13" rotors will not clear aftermarket FLCA's? Where is the clearance problem?-x2. So far I have the rear Arizona kit installed but haven't installed the front yet.

PS: How/where/did you install the proportioning valve? -sorry chatty cathys, would like to get more input on this possible fitment issue and the proportioning valve. ::flame suit on::

Kim_Jong_Il
02-28-2007, 03:49 PM
I don't see why they would cause interefence with the LCA. The only feasible place I would see placing a proportioning valve would be on the single line running to the rear of the car, but that would only allow you to lower your rear pressure. I guess that's fine if you have a rear bias issue.

Ahhsk
02-28-2007, 05:14 PM
Cathy number 1 would like to chime in:

I mentioned earlier I had 14" rotors up front with no issues.

You would have had to do something really chaotic to give yourself rear bias. Pro valve will only Reduce line pressure as the Illinator said.

Now if you were up for some hacking you could run true bias control with two MCs now that would be phat. Google AP or Wilwood Pedal boxes.

Cathy

yeah im in Aventura when im not "working" in Upstate NY

cdlong
02-28-2007, 09:53 PM
how is a dual MC different than a aftermarket prop valve? they both make the rear pressure a percentage of the front, right? both have a linear, just different slope.

the best bet would be a true stepped prop valve since at lower pressure the rear can handle more braking torque. as you push harder, weight shifts forward lowering the avaliable grip in the rear. it's not linear so the best we can do is a stepped valve (unless you're good with reprogramming electronic brake force distribution)

Maximamike
03-01-2007, 01:19 AM
how is a dual MC different than a aftermarket prop valve? they both make the rear pressure a percentage of the front, right? both have a linear, just different slope.

Dual master cylinders have a balance bar on the pedal to set the length of throw on each system. You can set the fronts to throw less(piston travel) than the rears or vice versa. A prop. valve ony controls can only change the pressure on the given system so much.

D1champ
03-01-2007, 04:23 AM
Here's a stupid question: I picked up a pair of GNIII 6-piston Wilwoods to install on an S13. Now the fact that i'm using such large calipers is not the question, I know it's overkill.

THe question is, the mounting bracket for the above kit works on these calipers (checked with wilwood directly), but would the wilwood 13" rotor interfere with the the bigger caliper considering the caliper mounting?

Kim_Jong_Il
03-01-2007, 08:05 AM
If they can offer information on the bracket they should be able to help with the rotor clearance too.

LigouriRd
03-01-2007, 08:47 AM
The only feasible place I would see placing a proportioning valve would be on the single line running to the rear of the car, but that would only allow you to lower your rear pressure. I guess that's fine if you have a rear bias issue.
Sorry about the interruption, I was expecting to get some response from Oppositelock. He mentioned that he has the Arizona Z car kits front and rear which ususally requires a proportioning valve to be installed in the rear line. I know where it is supposed to go, I wanted to know how people gone about installing it and keeping it accessible from inside the car. I have searched all the posts about the Zcar upgrade and it seems no-one gets around to the proportioning valve part...I figured it would be helpfull to anyone in the future doing such and upgrade.
I'll pm him, done.

Kim_Jong_Il
03-01-2007, 09:21 AM
Some people have ran a length of braided stainless through the firewall into the cabin. You can route however you need to, likely down the center console somewhere, then back out to meet up with the OE line again, or custom line all the way to the back.

OppositeLock
03-01-2007, 07:56 PM
I'm really interested to hear what you mean by this. Which FLCA's do you have? Do you think the 13" rotors will not clear aftermarket FLCA's? Where is the clearance problem?

I have SPL lower control arms. The clearance problem is between the rotor itself (a little more than half way out) and the nut on the LCA spindle. With the hat shaved .375" and .375" titanium spacers between the caliper and the mounting bracket there were no further problems, even with new rotors.

I would never run stainless hose to a proportioning valve; it creates another possibility for flex and thus a softer pedal.

Brake lines, flare tools, and line benders are all fairly inexpensive.

gsracer
03-01-2007, 10:51 PM
Since everyone else is wh@ring pics of there brakes so will I.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/IMG_2565.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/WORK%20S1/IMG_0219.jpg


Compared to z32 setup

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/100_4888.jpg

dangle01
03-02-2007, 03:24 AM
So you spent 400 on complete front and rear setup, including spl ss lines, proslot track rotors, z32 mc, complete ebrake assem., new hawk pads, rebuild kits, and powder coating. I would've had 400 into them if I just bought the calipers, stock rotors, ebrake assem., mc. I guess you just know the right people.

For one thing I made the lines myself. The rotors are nismo cross drilled rotors. I found no reason to upgrade to a Z32 BMC because I never said I upgraded the rears to a Z32 setup and the pad are Project MU B-Force for that JDM tightness factor. Also why waist money on powder coating when you can do it yourself. I also say if it's not broke why rebuild it.:rolleyes:

Here's a pic..

http://photos.freshalloy.com/gallery/d/16691-1/d+012.jpg

Broaner
03-02-2007, 03:18 PM
I have SPL lower control arms. The clearance problem is between the rotor itself (a little more than half way out) and the nut on the LCA spindle. With the hat shaved .375" and .375" titanium spacers between the caliper and the mounting bracket there were no further problems, even with new rotors.
Sh!t! I have SPL FLCA's and I was just about to order the Arizona kit. I'm hoping you could clarify more where the clearance problem was. I'm hoping the 13" Arizona kit has a greater hat depth from inner mounting location and inner face of the rotor and thus will allow the ball joint to be interferance free. I can't see that happening though since the 13" kit utilizes a 1.3" rotor thickness?

I like how you solved the problem. I'm just concerned about wheel to caliper clearance because spacing the caliper 3/8" is quite a bit.

I've got an inquiry into Dave at ArizonaZCar about all this. Pending his response and permission I'll post his response here.



I would never run stainless hose to a proportioning valve; it creates another possibility for flex and thus a softer pedal.

Brake lines, flare tools, and line benders are all fairly inexpensive.

Word!

cdlong
03-02-2007, 07:07 PM
Dual master cylinders have a balance bar on the pedal to set the length of throw on each system. You can set the fronts to throw less(piston travel) than the rears or vice versa. A prop. valve ony controls can only change the pressure on the given system so much.

but it's still linear from 0 psi up to max. or in other words, the rear pressure is always a certain percentage of the front pressure. a properly designed prop valve only reduces the pressure to the rear above a certain point. for example, the s14 MC reduces the rear line pressure to 40% of the front pressure only above 284 psi.

bks14sr
03-02-2007, 09:31 PM
For one thing I made the lines myself. The rotors are nismo cross drilled rotors. I found no reason to upgrade to a Z32 BMC because I never said I upgraded the rears to a Z32 setup and the pad are Project MU B-Force for that JDM tightness factor. Also why waist money on powder coating when you can do it yourself. I also say if it's not broke why rebuild it.:rolleyes:

Here's a pic..

http://photos.freshalloy.com/gallery/d/16691-1/d+012.jpg

Well, theres the difference in price right there. If I were to just do calipers, stock sized rotors, ss lines, pads, and even have someone else do the powder coating it would be less than 400. I got all 4 calipers and front rotors for 190 off ebay. I just felt like having a 12.8 in. rotor and full rear setup. The rear seals were leaking, so I figured why not do the front as well.

gsracer, that wheel/brake setup is awesome. That was basically the brake setup I wanted to do. I found srt8 brembo calipers(which I believe are the same as the cadillacs), and sti rears. But after pricing everything needed, I *****ed out and got what I have.

OppositeLock
03-04-2007, 12:13 PM
Sh!t! I have SPL FLCA's and I was just about to order the Arizona kit. I'm hoping you could clarify more where the clearance problem was. I'm hoping the 13" Arizona kit has a greater hat depth from inner mounting location and inner face of the rotor and thus will allow the ball joint to be interferance free. I can't see that happening though since the 13" kit utilizes a 1.3" rotor thickness?

I like how you solved the problem. I'm just concerned about wheel to caliper clearance because spacing the caliper 3/8" is quite a bit.

Here's a very current picture of my setup:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/OppositeLock/DSC05860.jpg

I marked in red where the contact was occurring on the inside of the rotor. My Paint skills are nonexistent.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/OppositeLock/DSC05861.jpg

There is a ton of clearance from caliper to wheel with 17x9 +15 CE28Ns.

Broaner
03-04-2007, 04:25 PM
Thanks for doing that. Gives me a great idea. But caliper clearance is totally independant of offset. Spoke design is what matters. I'm hoping my SSR's will allow me to clear. I'd imagine they will since they're a very performance oriented wheel.

modreadz
03-05-2007, 12:48 AM
Since everyone else is wh@ring pics of there brakes so will I.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/IMG_2565.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/WORK%20S1/IMG_0219.jpg


Compared to z32 setup

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v344/gsracer/100_4888.jpg

What calipers and rotors are you running? I like how it fills up the wheel well.

gsracer
03-05-2007, 01:19 AM
Cadillac Cts V brembos ( identical to brembo f40/f50 evo etc)
Rotors Mitsu Evo
lines Spl Z32 lines

SilviaS13Drift
03-05-2007, 12:05 PM
I don't know.

It will be interesting to see if your brakes continue to be up to the test as you get faster and faster.

I go road racing, and autocross in my little car. I started with the stock S14 brakes, and went to the Z32 brakes, I personally don't notice any difference between them two. They both lock up 225 50 16's just as easy. But Break fade is what i noticed. Z32 brakes dont fade as easily as the stock S14 brakes. Im thinking these brakes dont inhibit any fad, or very little.

~Mike

Racingswh
03-05-2007, 08:20 PM
I go road racing, and autocross in my little car. I started with the stock S14 brakes, and went to the Z32 brakes, I personally don't notice any difference between them two. They both lock up 225 50 16's just as easy. But Break fade is what i noticed. Z32 brakes dont fade as easily as the stock S14 brakes. Im thinking these brakes dont inhibit any fad, or very little.

~Mike

Hey Mike,

That's kind of what I meant. The larger rotors and calipers will help to resist fading better. You're right on the money with the fact that both can lock up the brakes. As you go faster and faster a few things have to happen that ask more of your brakes. First you probably are going to use a wider, stickier tire. I use a 275/40 in front and a 295/35 in back. They are either Kumho V710's or Hoosier R6's for the front and R6's for the back. With the stickier tires you have more grip and can brake harder and later. When this happens more heat get's built up in the pads, calipers, and rotors. Once the pads get beyond their optimum operating temperature they won't work as well. In addition to more grip there will probably be more power. Now you're going faster than ever before and you're braking harder than ever. This is the type of use in an environment that will be beyond the capability of a stock brake system.

I use Stoptechs in front that I purchased from SPL and use a Z32 rear setup. The brakes work amazing and there is NO fade ever.

Option1
03-06-2007, 01:40 AM
Yep.
How "hard" you stop depends on tire compound, well thought out brake bias balance, pad selection, and caliper/rotor size (leverage, as it was explained to me..bigger rotor and caliper farther out equals more "power)

rotor diameter alone is for heat disappation and cooling, which is the big draw for 3z brakes

As an aside, i see that racingbrake.com has 2pc slotted 350Z rotors;...does anyone make 2pc rears for the 300ZX?

SilviaS13Drift
04-09-2007, 10:24 AM
Good lawd! you run that size tires on your S13? Thats incredible. I want to get into a bit heavier racing, I mainly just run street tires with everything, and its very hard to get traction at times. My car is dynoed at around 280 RWHP @ 12 PSI. I defiantly want to get more competitive, with better tires and stuff, As of now, the Z32 brakes seem to do pretty well. compared to the stock brakes.

~Mike


Hey Mike,

That's kind of what I meant. The larger rotors and calipers will help to resist fading better. You're right on the money with the fact that both can lock up the brakes. As you go faster and faster a few things have to happen that ask more of your brakes. First you probably are going to use a wider, stickier tire. I use a 275/40 in front and a 295/35 in back. They are either Kumho V710's or Hoosier R6's for the front and R6's for the back. With the stickier tires you have more grip and can brake harder and later. When this happens more heat get's built up in the pads, calipers, and rotors. Once the pads get beyond their optimum operating temperature they won't work as well. In addition to more grip there will probably be more power. Now you're going faster than ever before and you're braking harder than ever. This is the type of use in an environment that will be beyond the capability of a stock brake system.

I use Stoptechs in front that I purchased from SPL and use a Z32 rear setup. The brakes work amazing and there is NO fade ever.