PDA

View Full Version : Ikeya Formula quad throttle body kit and Engine Management options.



discotom
05-31-2007, 02:29 PM
Hello folks,

I've taken the plunge and bought one of Ikeya Formula's lovely looking quad throttle body kits (http://www.ikeya-f.co.jp/en/product_notice/engine_kit.html) and have ran into a problem regarding the engine management I currently use being not suitable any longer.

Here is my current spec and you should see that I am using a reprogrammed standard Nissan EMS/ECU at the moment.

http://www.sxoc.co.uk/site/rides/ride.php?Member_ID=862

Having searched around for a couple of days with not a great deal of luck, I can only see one other person in the UK (where I'm from) having one of these in their car. From speaking to the tuner who installed it for said person, the tuner says that the only management he knows of that will run the engine with this throttle body kit is MoTeC (pricey...). This is apparently because the Ikeya throttle body kit doesn't produce a vacuum signal and the standard Nissan management needs this to run, as does other popular management like Apexi's Power FC.

So, we know the MoTeC will run it, but that's hefty on the wallet. Do you folks know of any other management that will run it and still keep great streetability.

I'm not a track day hero, or a drag strip fan - I just like fast road driving in real world scenario's. My reason for buying the Ikeya kit before cams was to improve engine response without compromising turbo spool up.... Hopefully...

Cheers for looking.

SoSideways
05-31-2007, 02:40 PM
Looks like that kit has provisions for the users to keep their stock IACV (idle air control valve) so that you can retain that device if you so choose to.

The only thing I did not see was a place for a TPS (throttle position sensor). If there is room for one, then I don't see why you cannot run the stock ECU with a ROM tune, as you are basically retaining all of the factory sensors, including the IACV for idling, and TPS.

Unless you were going to switch from the MAF system to a MAP system at the same time, I don't think you would need to worry about it.

discotom
05-31-2007, 02:48 PM
Cheers for the reply. :)

There is a place for the TSP on one side of one of the throttle body's. I've had all the bits out and checked the instructions (glad there were pics of it all as I can't read a word of Japanese, sadly...).

I did ask why, if the standard AAC valve and all that jazz had a dedicated tank, it stil didn't work, but was told that it was basically still down to the fact that it didn't produce a vacuum signal. He said it was more complicated than that, but with me not being the most genial when it comes to the in-depth tuning and engine running stuff, it would have been lost on me. Plus he was in the middle of his working day anyway and didn't really have time to answer me too deeply. He's not my usuall tuner, so I don't blame him really.

He did say it runs the same way as the Pulsar GTi-R (RNN14) set up as they use a similar quad throttle set up. I was actually thinking that if it's the same sort of set up as the Pulsar GTi-R, then maybe a modified version of the map they run in their ECU's could be implemented, but I fear there would be even less info around concerning that.

TS4l
05-31-2007, 03:25 PM
On my friends ITB setup Toyota we tapped into each cylinder and ran vacum lines to a distribution box that anything that needs to see vacuum can use. You obviously still have vacuum just have to measure it after the TB so in the runners works. You just need a way to join all the cylinders or you won't have smooth vacuum. His actually was hooked up wrong for a while and many things only pulled vacuum from one clyinder so I redid it and the cars runs much smoother. He is running Motec but it would have worked with a ctock ECU too. We welded the distribution box on the bottom of the intake manifold and ran a line from each cylinder. Then tapped it to hook in 4 lines going out. Your FPR will need this signal also to work correctly as well as your BOV.

SoSideways
05-31-2007, 04:02 PM
Jason - take a look at the link provided by discotom. The Ikeya Formula kit looks to have a vacuum distribution block built in, along with a spot for the IACV.

If that is the case, then I don't see why the IF kit wouldn't produce a vacuum signal, as there are like 6 or 7 vacuum barbs sticking out. And also, there is room to mount the TPS, so with that and the IACV, the car should be able to run on a tuned stock ECU. Just have to account for the ITBs, that's about it though.

It's not as if you just took the MAF off of the car and is trying to tune the car for MAP with a stock ECU. Your tuner sounds iffy man...

Gonad
05-31-2007, 05:03 PM
Why not consider the AEM EMS? Especially if you can afford this ITB kit :D

SoSideways
05-31-2007, 05:45 PM
Might not be many AEM EMS savvy tuners over in the UK...

TS4l
05-31-2007, 05:47 PM
I was busy so I didn't look at the link However it looks like the disrtibution is mounted before the TB's so it wouldn't show vacuum when the TB's are closed (Decel and Idle)

If you want I can snap some pics this weekend of my buddies Celica so you can see how we did it. Worked real good, after I finished tuning the Motec and fixing this his car runs great.

gunluvS14
05-31-2007, 06:12 PM
hmmm, question.
what's the point having a vaccum distribution block if it is mounted in front of the TB(s)??

TS4l
05-31-2007, 06:22 PM
You can use it as a boost only source. OEM TB's have ports that also only see boost. I guess it also wouldn't be called a vacuum distribution block either. Works for things that only need to see boost, like a Boost control solenoid. I don't use any boost only ports myself and with the Jet lag I have I won't even try and give other examples and look dumb.

discotom
05-31-2007, 06:44 PM
Sadly, this is where I get lost when talking about tuning. :( I'm handy with a spanner, though...

Anyway, the tuner I mentioned is very well respected in this country for what he knows and is comfortable mapping with, which is Omex, Power FC, Motec and piggyback's. Not sure if he would know much about AEM, or Haltech, Emerald, etc. Besides which he has already said he only knows of Motec that can do it without a vacuum signal.

Looking through the instructions and as far as I can make out, there is a hose going from the bottom of each runner, between the butterfly and the head, the leads back to the distribution block. This block has seven feeds in the bottom section, with one blocked off and a large feed on the top section. I have taken a photo of how it's orientated in the instructions and have placed lines to show how they are connected via hoses in the instructions.

Now, are these vac lines?

http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h142/disco-tom/Misc/40600002.jpg

TS4l
05-31-2007, 06:56 PM
Each one of those ports is a vacuum sorce. You should hook it up just like the pictures above and you will be fine. Then you can pull vacuum from the other nipples on that block. I couldn't see that very well in the small pictures. I don't know why he didn't think you could pull vacuum with this setup. Looks like nice stuff, should be fun when you get it all up and running.

discotom
05-31-2007, 07:10 PM
Yeah, that's what I was leaning towards, to be honest. Once the butterfly's are shut, surely those four big hoses will be sucking air from the distribution block? Pain in the ass thing is, is that I have found hardly any info anywhere the relates to someone actually having fitted this kit and the chap I was speaking of is the only one I know who's doing it at the moment..

Cheers for all your input chaps, it's appreciated. :)

UK_S14
06-01-2007, 04:08 AM
If you're keeping the Z32 AFM then you won't have to worry about changing the managenent.

UK_S14
06-01-2007, 04:11 AM
Double post

discotom
06-01-2007, 05:52 AM
Ben? Oh aye, found your boost creep thread.

discotom
06-01-2007, 05:56 AM
I'm guessing that those six take offs on the bottom part of the distribution tank will see both boost and vac then?

Will anything in the standard ECU need to see Vac only?

Epstein
06-01-2007, 08:55 AM
The standard ECU doesn't see any pressures at all. There is no pressure sensor. I'm completely lost on why you'd have to upgrade to Motec to run this setup. The ECU only needs a MAF sensor for airflow, CTS for coolant temp, and CAS for rpm and position. That's it for inputs, and it doesn't look like you're changing any of those. You'll probably need a remap due to different runner lengths (etc), and have the tip-in map changed, but that's about it.

Run this distribution tank like you have shown above. Run the other ports to the fuel pressure regulator, bov, and brake booster (and any other boost sensors/controllers). That tank will see vac and boost because it's connected to the intake manifold after the throttle bodies. Yes, the idle valve is also feeding idle air into the engine through this path, but that shouldn't matter.

discotom
06-01-2007, 11:01 AM
Turns out the chap I was talking to yesterday who said I needed to go with MoTeC just assumed I would have gone down the MAP based route... Lord knows why, probably because that's what they need to do with the car he's working on fitting this kit to at the moment (big Greddy T67 kit and will be aiming for 550-600hp, I think). Once I said that I would be staying with the Z32 afm he said the same as you guys have said.. So, panic over and my wallet has started talking to me again. :hsdance:

:sign_thankyou2:

minime
06-01-2007, 11:52 AM
Now he's just ********ting you because a map based system would work perfectly fine on that setup.

discotom
06-01-2007, 11:53 AM
Not that it affects me now, but why is that?

minime
06-01-2007, 12:01 PM
Because you have a vacume source for the MAP sensor on that block.

SoSideways
06-01-2007, 12:12 PM
So I was right all along! Yay!! I am not an idiot afterall lol

Anywho...

MAP or MAF, that surge tank + ITB setup will work for both.