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View Full Version : ca18de....can i make a monster n/a??



SLoWaSs13
05-27-2002, 07:21 AM
i was researchin about the different nissan engines i could get for my 240sx, i luv turbo, i really do, but the money to get everything and make nice power is just too much for me. may just save up and piece together a turbo project but i was wonderin about the power a ca18de caqn produce, i heard with the valvetrain upgraded it can have a 9k redline, add agressive cams, high-comp pistons and a valve job and i think it could push 220hp or so???? i was even thinkin about carbs or just a short ram intake manifold???? i was just wonderin i cant find jack on the net about the ca18de so i though someone hear may know?? thanks

HyperTek
05-27-2002, 12:49 PM
a rwd normally asperated ca18de in the states??? I dont know if they exsist... but anyways, building up that ca will cost a pretty penny also, just like the turbo build up.

Best bet is to buy a cheap used engine and build that up with chump change over a period of time so it wont seem like alot of money, it might take a while but the results will be there.

Hugh
05-27-2002, 07:35 PM
It would be absolutely pointless for you to get a CA18DE. Use the KA24DE and make a lot more power.

I can't even justify putting in a turbo CA, let alone a non-turbo CA.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-27-2002, 09:13 PM
Is there such thing as a ca18de? What cars did it come in?

I saw what looked like a ca18det minus the turbo at the junkyard the other day, but it was apparently out of an old Sentra or Stanza or something... guess that engine just looks similar... got my hopes up for a second when I saw it in the corner of my eye though... http://www.freshalloy.com/

KenFuji
05-28-2002, 02:19 AM
a monster NA will cost much more then a turbo engine with the same hp goals.

Rogue
05-28-2002, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by kenfuji:
a monster NA will cost much more then a turbo engine with the same hp goals.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]EXACTLY

big_bada_boom
05-28-2002, 07:23 AM
Nissan made the CA18de for the 88 Pulsar. Also earlier they made a CA20de (at least I think it was dohc). Aldo made a ca18et (single cam). If your going NA you can use the block off of the ca20, try to fit the ca18 head (which i have a spare head lying around with 1 bent valve). All of which you can easily find in junk yards. The stock ca18det with forged pistons and shaved crank will turn 9500 rpms without any mods to the head, and the iron block WILL take the abuse! You can buy nismo parts for the CA series (forged crank, etc) but the prices are so outrageous! From what I believe, the old 200sx had a RWD setup, and that tranny MIGHT bolt up to the CA with no problems...if not you can get a ca18det tranny from j-land. If it blows up you can just use the bell housing and swap the internals for the KA tranny internals. The CA series is up there right along with the SR and the RB series.

big_bada_boom
05-28-2002, 07:24 AM
Oh yea, and dont forget about the CA16de from the pulsar as well.

grinder
05-28-2002, 07:31 AM
a CA18DE would be a good motor for NA usage. Due to its high revving nature and more linear power curve. Great for Auto-X.

05-28-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by grinder:
a CA18DE would be a good motor for NA usage. Due to its high revving nature and more linear power curve. Great for Auto-X.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]I disagree. A motor like the KA24DE would be MUCH better. The low-end torque will pull you out of those slow corners much better than a low-torque, high-RPM motor.

Asad

Hugh
05-28-2002, 02:16 PM
Yeah, spend thousands of dollars, months of your time, and end up with a torqueless 150hp POS for the price you could've had a stock SR installed for.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-28-2002, 04:18 PM
do you think if i yank the motor and drivetrain out of a 200sx S12 turbo (CA18DET) it will fit into a S13? i was at the junkyard the other day looking at a turbo 200sx and i was thinking this might be a relatively cheap SR alternative...

Chance
05-28-2002, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by S30 bushido:
do you think if i yank the motor and drivetrain out of a 200sx S12 turbo (CA18DET) it will fit into a S13? i was at the junkyard the other day looking at a turbo 200sx and i was thinking this might be a relatively cheap SR alternative...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]The CA18DET wasn't in the S12, not in the US anyway. That was the CA18ET, POS engine (SOHC) prone to cracking the exhaust manifold and made crappy power anyway. I think 120hp compared to the 140 of a KA24E.

My advice, if you can't afford 2 large (plus shipping and/or sales tax) for a CA18DET, then spend a little bit here and there building up your KA24. Or for that matter do like I am. I am building up and tuning my suspension until I can afford the body mods I want, then I plan on swapping in an SR or CA (I keep changing my mind on which).

AKADriver
05-29-2002, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by grinder:
a CA18DE would be a good motor for NA usage. Due to its high revving nature and more linear power curve. Great for Auto-X.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]It's an excellent engine for NA usage, in a lighter car like a 510. In a 240SX it just doesn't have the grunt, especially when 2.0L and 2.4L engines are so plentiful.

The S12 engines are a waste of time. That includes the VG30E (IMO). Incidentally I see S12 guys swapping in KA24E's.


Originally posted by 1bad180sx:
Yeah, spend thousands of dollars, months of your time, and end up with a torqueless 150hp POS<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]This isn't true either. If you know what you're doing, over 200hp NA is possible from the CA18DE.

I swear sometimes it seems like people here are allergic to naturally aspirated engines. The CA18 isn't the answer, but a KA24 might be.

Hugh
05-29-2002, 06:49 AM
Ok, but for how much money can you build a 200hp NA CA??

Less than it would cost to buy an SR and make 205hp stock, dependably, and have vast room for improvement??

And yes, I don't like NA. Once you go turbo, you never go back. (at least for me)

**DONOTDELETE**
05-29-2002, 07:34 AM
Why not go with a 600cc Honda Shadow engine or a Virago 920 twin or something??WHat is with this wack BS N/A questioning???
Are you guys allergic to going fast or something??Geeez....
Rob
If you're asking how much,you don't have enough.

SLoWaSs13
05-29-2002, 02:44 PM
whats up with blowin up at me, i asked a damn questio and u act like i commited sin or some crap, if u read my post i said ill most likely get a damn turbo anyway, i was just askin, cus i remebered guys talkin about n/a motors need rpm's to make good power, the only damn nissan engine to have a nice rev map "stock" is the ca18de platform, so i though it would work out like a honda motor, i aint stupid i f***in know it would be prue top-end and no gut at all, i was just askin, it would be nice to see a n/a 240sx for once, but whatever, u guys are so turbo bent. not everyone whats to get a sr like the rest of the crowd, i know what they can do from seein greaser and others push thier sr's. i was just askin someone in this group that actually cares about other engine mods then slapin a turbo on, to give me some insight, thanks to thoses that helped me out and F*** yall that busted on me like a pack of dogs, sorry to the mods for my language but this was just plain rude.

SLoWaSs13
05-29-2002, 02:52 PM
oh and chance i have my suspension done and body, im at the point that im savin for my power. my ka24e is on its last leg i think, i abuse it too much and im hopin to get something by the beginnin of the new year. im just researchin and gettin ready to do a swap or build-up

Hugh
05-29-2002, 03:23 PM
Hey there, V2, I wasn't attacking you... sorry if it came out like that in print. I was just trying to really steer you away from this idea, as it would not be worth it. Your KA makes more power than a CA18DE, and has more potential for easy power as well.

The money spent on the NA motor build up could be much better invested in a turbo setup that will net a LOT more power in the end.

The idea here is to go fast, from what I gather, otherwise you should just keep running a stock KA. If you want to go fast, go turbo.

SLoWaSs13
05-29-2002, 04:06 PM
i understand that, im not some newbie ok. i never said at all in my post that i wanted to build a n/a ca did i??? please guys read the post throughly....i also never said that n/a build up is cheaper then turbo or more effecient (spellin), did i???? u guys just jump in and dont understand my post at all, i just wanted to know what yall think about a n/a motor thats all!!! i think a ca would be a better n/a motor for the simple fact that the ka was not build for hp from the n/a, and it has such a long stroke, sure it has more power stock then a ca cus it has .6 more liters!!! u stroke a ca to a 2.0, add the pistons, cams, etc and add the same to a ka, i really dont think the ka would be better, better torque, but not better hp, and hp is what really matters on the top-end, this wouldnt be a drag engine but a road racing engine. stop assumin every post here is about racin on the street , where everyone wants max torque and hp so they pump out nos and turbos, i like n/a engines for the simple fact that its all about the tech that is needed to make one thats fast. and i have never seen a n/a build up except for a website a while back that the guy had a ka n/a with high comp pistons etc and neted 220 or so whp but he had to spike his 93 octane or run race gas. again just read my post and answer my post, not what u think the post was in ur eyes.

[ 05-29-2002, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: v2unlimited ]

Chance
05-29-2002, 04:30 PM
I would like to swap in an Autech SR20DE (N/A) http://www.freshalloy.com/

Like that'll ever happen.

V2, it's all good, bro.

My KA has 140k on it, still kickin. Building a custom CAI for it now (coming along well). I don't want to pay $$$ for a CAI that won't be used once I swap.

SLoWaSs13
05-29-2002, 04:35 PM
yeh at this point in ready for power, i would also have 300zx brakes but my clutch went up, replaced it with a spec clutch and then that went up 2 months later cus the guy installed it wrong, at the end i spent 1800 bucks for a clutch thats slippin if i wot too hard ????? only thing i took the car to a shop for and i shoot 18oo bucks on nuttin but trouble ??? anyway, i may grab a dohc ka and build it up for turbo as i get the cash.

AKADriver
05-29-2002, 06:25 PM
Something for some of you to think about:

Sometimes the goal is not to make the largest horsepower numbers. I want my 240SX to be a fun car. Well, it is a fun car... but as fun as possible. Would a 400hp SR with a spiky turbo powerband be more fun than a 250hp KA24 with a linear powerband and a lumpy idle? Maybe not.

It's all about making yourself happy, is my point, I guess.

I, for one, think that building a CA18DE for a 240SX is a bad idea; like I said before it'd rock for a 510 or a 210 or something light like that. 200hp wouldn't cost as much as you think, either. cams, headwork, header, high-comp. pistons, twin carbs.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-29-2002, 08:43 PM
"Spiky Turbo" power??Please tell me that is a brand name or something. Turbo makes more power AND over a b-r-o-a-d-e-r range. Win-win in my books.
Rob http://www.freshalloy.com/

Hugh
05-30-2002, 12:21 AM
When the 400hp SR stuffs your a$$ in the seat and you pray for dear life that you don't hit anything and can continue to go straight... You will be having fun. Trust me.

AKADriver
05-30-2002, 07:05 AM
It's over a broader range but it still doesn't happen until the turbo spools, and if you're making BIG power that's going to take a LONG time. Fractions of a second are an eternity. Take a look at some dyno plots of real serious turbo engines; ones that start down around 3000rpm. You'll see nothing down low until a very aggressive upward ramp in the torque curve as it spools. Meanwhile, the NA engine's curve will be lower to be sure, but flat. The horsepower may be nothing to speak of down low, but as the revs change there is no aggressive ramp. Torque delivery is consistent and, at 250hp from a 2.4 liter, available all the way up to redline.

Here's (http://www.randdmotorsports.com/images/projectcars/dynopulls/dyno_stockpull.jpg) a dyno graph of a Honda S2000. Yeah, it's only putting 130lb-ft to the road, but it does so linearly and predictably. A 2.4 liter with similar peak power output will put down ~160lb-ft and fall off a little earlier.

I'd rather concentrate on cutting a good line than trying to control which direction my rear end is going. Linearity and predictability are sexy.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-30-2002, 07:28 AM
And this graph is the reason that $500 dollars and an afternoon of tinkering can make your moms 1989 Mazda 626 turbo yank the S2ks lights out at the strip.
Think about it...you're justifying why it's good to be slow. http://www.freshalloy.com/
There has to be a thrill of NOT being freightrained by 2 buslengths every time you race something faster than a Civic DX(or have you driven KA too long). Or else nobody else would have turbo either. http://www.freshalloy.com/
Rob

"There are only two kinds of drivers in this world, turbo haves and turbo have-nots" http://www.freshalloy.com/

AKADriver
05-30-2002, 10:38 AM
Yes, I am justifying why sometimes it's better to sacrifice maximum power output (be slow) for an engine that's easier to drive and maintain, since drag racing is at the bottom of the list of things I intend to do with my 240SX.

I've only been driving a stock KA for a couple months actually, and my daily driver is much faster than my 240SX anyway. It's also naturally aspirated and quite mild, though it does have the advantage of 2.8L.

Turbocharging produces incredible power numbers, but at the cost of a lot of things. linearity, throttle response, heat, complexity, weight...

Don't take any of this to mean that I don't respect turbocharged engines... or even that I don't want one. Just consider that there are more factors at stake than max acceleration.

Hugh
05-30-2002, 02:49 PM
If drag racing is not important... good for you, but I guess I have no more input here.

I'm all about it.

jimc-s13
05-30-2002, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by McTwist:
And this graph is the reason that $500 dollars and an afternoon of tinkering can make your moms 1989 Mazda 626 turbo yank the S2ks lights out at the strip.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]And when you're not going in a straight line, the S2000 will show it's taillights to that same 626 turbo because of its superior handling which is aided by that linear power.

If all you're interested in is straightline speed, then a big turbo that spools at 4K rpm or higher that hits 500+ hp would be good. If running around road courses is more your style, there will be slower cars out there showing you their taillights because they are easier to drive fast (and I'll probably be one of them http://www.freshalloy.com/ ).

One last point: a KA with a T3 will spool almost intantaneously, and could provide up to around 300 whp if done right. Even a T3/T4 combo could be done well enough to make it still pretty easy to drive on a road course or autox. So while you could build a KA turbo (or even SR if you wanted to) that could put out good power and still have a nice linear powerband, it probably won't be a 500+ hp monster.

Even with all that, you may still face other issues with higher-powered turbo engines like overheating, whereas my NA KA has no problems hauling itself around a road course for as long as I want.

And if all you're interested in is straight line racing, there are plenty of better ways to do it than in a 240.

Jim

YoplaitYogurt1234
05-30-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by v2unlimited:
whats up with blowin up at me, i asked a damn questio and u act like i commited sin or some crap, if u read my post i said ill most likely get a damn turbo anyway, i was just askin, cus i remebered guys talkin about n/a motors need rpm's to make good power, the only damn nissan engine to have a nice rev map "stock" is the ca18de platform, so i though it would work out like a honda motor, i aint stupid i f***in know it would be prue top-end and no gut at all, i was just askin, it would be nice to see a n/a 240sx for once, but whatever, u guys are so turbo bent. not everyone whats to get a sr like the rest of the crowd, i know what they can do from seein greaser and others push thier sr's. i was just askin someone in this group that actually cares about other engine mods then slapin a turbo on, to give me some insight, thanks to thoses that helped me out and F*** yall that busted on me like a pack of dogs, sorry to the mods for my language but this was just plain rude.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]shut the fukk up... If you ask a stupid question, you will get a what you deserve. With all off the archived information on here (FA) and the rest of the net, you should have researched and answered your own question.

**DONOTDELETE**
05-30-2002, 09:01 PM
Hey guys, I'm a fan of N/A power too.
My point is this, on any course bigger than a parking lot a 2L turbo will spank a 2.4 N/A.
2 cars with the same set-up on a road course, and the n/a loses. It's hard to make up the time lost in the straights.

jimc-s13
05-30-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by McTwist:
Hey guys, I'm a fan of N/A power too.
My point is this, on any course bigger than a parking lot a 2L turbo will spank a 2.4 N/A.
2 cars with the same set-up on a road course, and the n/a loses. It's hard to make up the time lost in the straights.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]That depends, both on the course and the car setups. If your 2L turbo spools hard at 4500 rpm (like a 500hp setup), it will be so hard to drive on a road course it will be slow. If you can't modulate the power, you lose.

That also depends on the road course. At Sebring, the faster car would probably win because that track is mostly straights with not much technical action. Roebling Road is mostly fast sweepers; if you can't provide just the right amount of power, you go slow or spin out.

In addition, how do you think a 200whp 2.0L turbo would fare against a 200whp NA 2.4L? As I said, it all depends on the cars, the tracks, and the drivers.

Jim