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revlis240
08-15-2002, 04:53 AM
hey all,
driving home tonite, i get pulled over by these 2 cops who are nice, but arnt exactly willing to listen. heres the fixit ticket they gave me:

1) front tint (my fault, its not DARK, but it is tinted)
2) no front plate (never got one w/ the car)
3) what really pisses me off...said i have to put the stock exhaust back on. heres the story:

i told them that its well below the 95db limit, and they didnt like me telling them what the law is.
officer: "any device that makes your car louder is illegal, the 95db law is about making your own exhaust, which is illegal unless it came from detroit or whatever." i told them about legal exhausts, headers, intakes (didnt mention carb numbers because they'd wanna see mine). they asked to pop the hood, they see nothing they can question me on except the hose coming out of the valve cover to the intake pipe.
offier: "theres supposed to be a PCV valve here, where is it"
me: <<youre an idiot>>, "the PCV valve is under the intake manifold, theres no way you can see it from the top, that hose is how it was stock"
officer: "theres supposed to be a PCV valve there"

so i need your help on the exhaust part. i have an apexi RS exhaust w/ stock cat. the cars really quiet, i honestly dont think its over 95db. what IS the law on that? where can i find it in the vehicle code? what can i show the judge? i just need to basically prove that just becase its modified doesnt mean thats its FRIEKIN illegal. the cops wouldnt LISTEN to a WORD i was saying. "look son, ive been doing this for 25 years, lemme tell you something about the law..." mentality. FRIEKIN A'

what the heck, i KNOW i edited this post w/ more info, but it didnt show. this is not my night. anyways, i needed to know the current status of laws like VC 27151 and SB1081. heres a quote from the VC book of cali. i need HARD PROOF to fight this, help me.

"(b) For the purposes of exhaust systems installed on motor vehicles with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating of less than 6,000 pounds, other than motorcycles, a sound level of 95 dbA or less, when tested in accordance with Society of Automotive Engineers Standard J1169 May 1998, complies with this section. Motor vehicle exhaust systems or parts thereof include, but are not limited to, nonoriginal exhaust equipment."

i tried searching for SAE J1169 of May 1998 with no luck, all i gathered was that it was a new standard of testing a stationary vehicle. but test how? 25' away? 50' away? i need proof. also, isnt 95db as loud as when you cant hear yourself talking? i doubt my cars that loud, really.

help
-Abe

Dousan_PG
08-15-2002, 09:29 AM
oh
abe, there's a group who fights this sort of thing. i've seen their ads at the end of super street and such, i can't recall their name. basically, they asssist/advise people on what the laws REALLY are. i dont have any super streets, but somebody might. you might check that out. i'll keep my eyes out incase i remember/see it

no use arguing with cops. they wont listen. just take it and deal with it in court.

**DONOTDELETE**
08-15-2002, 10:49 AM
I do have some pointers for you to bring up in court.

1) Check out wwww.greddy.com/technical/ and check in the FAQ section. (I know you don't have a Greddy exhaust, but the laws/rules are applicable to you.
2) Take a picture of the said PCV valve and mention it in court. That will get that nulled and voided. He is a police officer NOT an expert on ALL emissions related equipment. It is the job of the CARB or a smog expert to tell if something is missing. Besides, he didn't even look for the PCV valve.
3) W/ the license plate. That is still your fault. You and I both know that both front and rear license plates are required. Don't try to bull**** me and say that you didn't know about that law or it didn't come w/ the car. You could've gone to the dealership and bought the license plate bracket, but you chose not to. What you can do is CLAIM to not know about it in court, but will order one that day OR get it done prior to your court date and say that it has been resolved.

You're on the right track when it comes to specific laws dealing w/ exhaust. Also, check out www.streetracing.org. (http://www.streetracing.org.) Look in the vehicle roads/regulations area. There are a number of helpful police officers who are very honest and they frequently post on that board.

**DONOTDELETE**
08-15-2002, 02:15 PM
This is exactly what SEMA fights for every year. FYI this is an easy ticket to fight. You will lose $10 for processing and the hassle of going to court but you can win easy.

1. No officer can say that your exhaust is too loud w/o the use of a decible meter. There is no way some guy can just listen to your exhaust and say "hey Bob, your exhaust is 98.5dB." That alone can win you the case. Basically you can say the profiled you and pulled you over for no reason.

2. As far as the Detroit thing he argued......the argument I bring up is "Then what the hell is Midas and Mieneke mufflers?" Those are aftermarket but so mainstream that officers tend to overlook them and forget. They may be OEM looking but obviously are not.

3. Contact SEMA they love to fight this stuff.

WARNING!!!! Here is the kicker though...I know a couple CHP guys who are very very knowledgable. They know what is legal and not...they are fair but smart.

Remember an exhaust like GReddy WILL be under the 95dB level but that is on a stock car....once you put an air filter and headers on it will usually be past that. CHP know this so your exhaust may be legal but they will sent you to a state referee which has a dB meater and your car will not pass with all those mods and then you are screwed. Doesn't happen often but it does happen.

240sxer
08-15-2002, 03:07 PM
thats pretty helpful... i was wondering what do you ka-t and sr guys do when cops ask about those...

**DONOTDELETE**
08-15-2002, 03:11 PM
We cross our fingers.

chris@speedalliance.com
08-15-2002, 03:26 PM
dude...don't sweat it.
i got the same ticket. i went to traffic division of SDPD and they tested my car with dB meter. 89dB was the result.
So i got that cleared.

What i suggest is that you write to governor and the cops superior (the guy above him). tell them that you passed and he had no right to say what he did.

Luckily you didn't have anything else illegal!

Chris

formulaJEREMY
08-15-2002, 04:46 PM
I agree, it's usually not a good idea to argue. It will usually end up with you getting more tickets. Just take some time and do a little research before you go to court so that you can make a sound argument.

BTW, I think they revised the law in CA in 2000 to allow some level of front tint. I think a lot of cops aren't up to speed yet on that, so I would make sure to check that out too.

Good luck.

allmotorKA
08-15-2002, 05:22 PM
Sometimes, the court clerk will also try and make you pay the fine of the ticket in addition to the court fee even after you have passed your inspection and got the fix it ticket signed off. Don't fall for that one...

revlis240
08-15-2002, 05:38 PM
went and talked to the traffic head guy at my local station heres what out heated debate was all about. i told him about SB1081 and VC27151 (the latter he knew by heart, fancy that). he told me that yes, provided you have a muffler and resonator, below 95db is legal, but it has to be DOT approved. it has to a DOT apprvoed exhaust? !!***WTF***!! is a DOT approved exhaust. he told me if i wanted it tested i would basically have to go to a referree and have them do it. but then the refs gonna look at eveything and ill be focked. god dammit. he said "in my 10 years 95% of all cars that are modified are illegal" i asked him to walk outside with me and count the cars with exhauts on them and he said yes, 95% of them are all illegel. I HATE IDIOTS LIKE THESE. F' him. im so pissed off, sorry to all those who are cops on this board, but *some* of you are just idiots who wont listen to a word of reason that might contradict your *opinions*. cops are there to ENFORCE THE DAMN LAW NOT MAKE THEIR OWN. so short of going to a ref, he said theres no way i can prove my cars legal. ill fail because i have an Injen intake w/ CAE, non working emissions, no AIV, and misc Tee'd off vacuum hoses.

tell me what to do now, need help.
-Abe
PS anyone heard of what the current front tint can be in cali? ill look it up at the DMV site...

uiuc240
08-15-2002, 06:05 PM
so what's the real deal? $75? $100? just pay it dude. let it go. go have a beer or something. this is just the way it is.

or at least leave it alone for a day. once you cool off, figure out how to beat this thing. sounds to me like cali is just a ghey state to live in. i'll take my illinois piece-of-cake laws, thanks.

Eric

The Yak
08-15-2002, 06:10 PM
"in my 10 years 95% of all cars that are modified are illegal"

"so short of going to a ref, he said theres no way i can prove my cars legal. ill fail because i have an Injen intake w/ CAE, non working emissions, no AIV, and misc Tee'd off vacuum hoses."

Now why is the cop wrong again?

If I were you, I'd just get everything fixed, throw on the stock stuff, go to ref, have everything signed off, pay your fine and be on your way. I drive a car with a SR swap in Cali and I keep my fingers crossed that I don't get sent to the ref. If I do...oh well. Its the price of playing in Los Angeles.

But checking in with SEMA is a good idea. Also, try different police stations because the officers are different in each place. Some of them are hard-[censored], others are cool and will let you slide on stuff.

-Charlie

revlis240
08-15-2002, 06:32 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
"in my 10 years 95% of all cars that are modified are illegal"

"so short of going to a ref, he said theres no way i can prove my cars legal. ill fail because i have an Injen intake w/ CAE, non working emissions, no AIV, and misc Tee'd off vacuum hoses."

Now why is the cop wrong again?

[/QUOTE]

hes wrong becuase he said that in his 10 years of service 95% of all cars are over 95db once modified. it doesnt pertain to my other mods (CAE). the cops just have an attitude that any and ALL modified exhausts are illegal. i quote "the standard is a stock honda, no car out there should be louder than a stock honda" i asked if a camaro SS was quieter than a stock honda, he said yes it is. explain THAT to me, i beg you.

-Abe

**DONOTDELETE**
08-15-2002, 07:13 PM
I'm sorry Abe...I can't explain that to you. Camaro SS quieter than a stock Civic?!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif
I was on the floor laughing!

In my experience, judges are usually much more understanding than the police officers. They usually lower fines if it all possible. If you can cite these laws and bring up the fact that an officer must have a decibel meter, you should be able to forget most of those violations. I don't know about the tint.

good luck
i know how it feels to be a victim of COPS

HyperTek
08-15-2002, 07:44 PM
I wonder if Hot rod boys get this kind of attention. I usually see older guys driving around in souped up 60's cars etc. and its like they are running almost open exhuast, do they get pulled over?? I dont know, I could just picture a cops face lighting up and saying "See, now thats a car, unlike those freakin imports!!".

Man, The other day, a cop blows past me in a 45mph zone and switches to my line right in front of me only a car length ahead and the thing that took me was that he didnt signal.

I feel this is true, but arent we suppose to like cops, instead of being afraid of cops??? Im sure its one of the toughest jobs out there, and Id give them respect, but when they abuse it, its just not right.

spotz
08-15-2002, 07:45 PM
Okay take it for what its worth, but.... I have been there done that *EXACTLY*. I live in Reseda, and drive a 300ZX TT that is highly modded. I got stopped in Studio City by a Female motorcycle cop. She was a f'ing [censored]. I *NEVER* get mouthy or mad @ a cop, but I did at this one because she was yelling at me from start to finish. She gave me a ticket for:

"Loud dual modified exhaust"
No front license plate
Front window tinting
No valid insurance card (the new one was sitting @ home, the old one was 2 days out of date).

Well.... I beat ALL the tickets.

I went and had the car looked at one of the CHP locations (DeSoto and Victory in the Valley).....

The guy walked outside, looked at the car, told me to start it and move it, then signed off on all tickets. I went to court to beat the exhuast ticket (~$100 fine-but it was the point of the matter), talked with the judge, said:

That the car is a 1991, it came w/ a factory dual exhaust, took a service manual to prove, and informed them that the factory exhaust is no longer made (somewhat BS, but hey, can they prove it w/o leaving the court room?). Also, I took a recording of the car, informed the judge that there is no way to *really* prove that the recording was correct (could be dubbed, or altered in many ways), but that the recording was really my car, and that everyone was welcome to walk down to the parking lot and hear it for themselves.

With that, the judge ruled in my favor, and I laughed @ the [censored] sitting accros from me-literley (the cop).

It was a beautiful day.

e-mail me if you have questions-spotz@socal.rr.com

chris.

Mav1178
08-15-2002, 08:10 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
went and talked to the traffic head guy at my local station heres what out heated debate was all about.

[/QUOTE]

And WHY are you going to your "local head traffic guy"???

Go to your nearest CHP station, show them S.B. 1081, and provide some testing equipment or have paperwork from a certified repair station that your exhaust sound output is within the limits.

In all honesty, local police departments can enforce the law as they see "fit" in their jurisdiction. CHP (from what I've found) seem to have the most uniform standard of enforcing S.B. 1081 in California, partially b/c the law varies from city to city.

If you want to be an ass back at him, go back and ask for the definition of "DOT approved". Then ask him if a Ferrari is louder than a stock Civic. Then ask him if a Viper is louder than a stock Lincoln LS. Then ask him until he gives up, or you die from laughing rolling on the floor.

-alex

mv240
08-16-2002, 03:56 AM
Hey spotz, that should be made into a movie of the week!!! A "feel good movie" about the "triumph of the human spirit"! Hey, I felt all warm and fuzzy inside just reading it!!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

STICK IT TO 'EM!

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 06:12 AM
Greetings... Now don't stone the WRX invader... I was pointed here by a 240sx-er =) First, let me add my own SOB story.

I got pulled over for a four-hit combo, one of which included a modified exhaust. Tanabe Race-spec. Frankly, it was pretty loud, but it came with the nice pretty "certificate" that said the exhaust was legal, and so forth.

The CHP kindly informed me that I could have a state issued document saying that I could smoke crack, but smoking crack would still be illegal. I'm not sure about that one. So now I have this ticket.

Deciding that "Asian" and "Hood Scoop" and "Loud Exhaust" and "Bright blue import" car probably aren't the best way to escape profiling, I had the stock exhaust put on. Here's where the fun really begins.

CHP officer Rudder at the WEST LA office told me to go to the smog referee. They would "attach a machine that will let us know if your echaust is legal." Ok, we're talking dB levels not pollutants. But fine, call the smog ref and surprise surprise, "WE ONLY DO SMOG CHECKS! YOUR CHP OFFICER IS AN IDIOT!" (honest to god).

So I go back. His lazy ass finally decides to get up this time, and come outside. Here's something to note... people think dual exhaust pipes (either together, or on opposite ends) are "sporty". Anything that is larger than a quarter in diameter is "sporty." Remember that. His immediate response "You're kidding me." Hell no I'm not kidding you, I have brochures from the dealership that show the exact exhaust. But don't let the rims fool you, cuz you know, that will increase the exhaust sound of a stationary vehicle... So after he tells me to rev it, he fails me. Big Surprise.

"That is not what a stock subaru sounds like."
me "Ok, what does a stock subaru sound like?"
"I don't know, but not that."
me thinking "Gimme me my frickin tax money back."

The moral so far is this:
As of right now, your exhaust is NOT "innocent before proven guilty." That's the way it is. SEMA is currently fighting to have the exhaust law we all love to quote enforced. It is, as of right now, not being enforced because no CHP office is required to have dB testing equipment. So it's arbitrary. DOT shouldn't matter, but that's just the way they get around it. Harley Davidson's have straight cut exhausts and are much louder, but they get away with it =P Also CHP officers can be morons.

So, then i saw this post on I-club (http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=206385)... and it seemed like a good idea. But dB testing equipment can be hard to find, so I changed the words a bit, and went to dealerships asking them to certify that stock equipment was on my car. You see, I had stock equipment on, but they wanted me to put stock equipment on. No, that doesn't make sense. yes, these are the people with guns and enforcing the law on a paycheck provided by your tax money. Some dealerships will be wary to sign, so go to a bunch. In the end, I went to a CHP office near magic mountain (way way north of LA) that actually knows their stuff... they looked at my signed papers, but still listened to the car... i'm sure that tempered their opinion. They also asked if i had a signed dB paper, which they will sign off on immediately.

According to fellow SCIC (Socal i-club) members, there are a few places (http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=224029)
that will sign off for you.

One might also look into sites such as www.ticketassassin.com (http://www.ticketassassin.com) for more freedom-fighting advice. And also www.mashimaro.co.kr/eng/epsd06.asp (http://www.mashimaro.co.kr/eng/epsd06.asp) for good advice on how to deal with idiot CHP =P

And the moral of this story? Although some CHP are smart and fair, many more are racist, ignorant, incompetent, and good for stopping bullets, and all of them have guns and are legally permitted to use them on you. =P

As for tint laws, i found this post (http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=216743) which may be of some use.

Good luck to you all, and speed smart...

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 06:14 AM
and also gratz to mv240 for 69 posts http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 10:23 AM
Ew Jing, we don't need sick-minded sc00by lovas in here http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

But thank you for the enlightening post. Plenty of good info.


smoke-and-a-pancake?

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 11:06 AM
"ill fail because i have an Injen intake w/ CAE, non working emissions, no AIV, and misc Tee'd off vacuum hoses."

You're running w/o proper emissions equipment among other things and now you're complaining to us about the ticket? Don't get me wrong, but your initial post did not indicate that you had a modded engine bay. You choose not to run w/ emissions therefore, if you want to play, be prepared to be burned. What do you think led the cop to look more carefully at your engine/emissions? The cop saw the tint and missing plate...that led him to look more at your car.

You choose to complain because you got caught violating emissions. You called them "IDIOTS" even though you know full well that you were/are wrong. They (the cops) are enforcing the laws in this situation.

The SR guys know that they are screwed if a cop looks under the hood. They run that risk. Sorry Abe, but you got caught and you know it. SEMA can't help you in this case, because you were violating emission laws anyway.

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 11:21 AM
Can cops make you pop your hood? Don't they need some sort of search warrant or something? hehe...i know some cops won't know an sr from a ka, but there are some out there that can get ya.

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 12:38 PM
If you're driving on a public street they can stop you to check your tire pressures and oil level if they wanted to. Your car has no legal protection from searches. Parked in your driveway might be a different story.

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 12:45 PM
"Can cops make you pop your hood? Don't they need some sort of search warrant or something? hehe...i know some cops won't know an sr from a ka, but there are some out there that can get ya."

Since I'm not a police officer, I cannot answer for them. But I think I do know the answer to this. (BTW, check out the vehicle code/laws section at www.streetracing.org (http://www.streetracing.org)). Assuming that the police officer just wants you to pop your hood...he cannot do that. He needs a reason to make you pop your hood (like exhibition of speed, loud exhuast, etc.). Stuff like that will automatically give him a reason to pop your hood.

formulaJEREMY
08-16-2002, 01:08 PM
The cannot just search your car without probable cause, it doesn't matter whether or not your are on a public road. People have a reasonable expectation of privacy. That means that police cannot search a vehicle beyond what is in direct sight from the outside without probable cause that criminal activity is taking place. At least, that's what I make of it.

After I get out of law school in 3 years, I will dedicate my life to preserving the well-being of performance enthusiasts everywhere. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

revlis240
08-16-2002, 03:21 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
You choose to complain because you got caught violating emissions. You called them "IDIOTS" even though you know full well that you were/are wrong. They (the cops) are enforcing the laws in this situation.


[/QUOTE]

excuse me? i didnt get "caught" for doing anything. the exhaust has..and read carefully please...*********NOTHING******** to do with emissions. what i was cited for was something completely different. if the cops knew what they were looking for, they could have gotten me for the hotshot headers and no AIV and things like that. but they didnt, they cited me for an exhaust modification when the car was not even running. kindly chose YOUR arguments wisely or youre on the same field as the cops that night...

-Abe

**DONOTDELETE**
08-16-2002, 04:24 PM
Well, considering that the exhaust vents exhaust gases, I would say that it has to deal w/ emissions.

But I'm going to ask you this: What EXACTLY were you cited for? Please state the VC and violation that is directly written on your ticket. You never stated the exact violation (whether it was noise limits or otherwise) and that will clear up all confusion.

My assumption is that he wrote you up for modified exhaust...NOT disabled emissions.

revlis240
08-17-2002, 05:37 AM
VC27151. i read and memorized most of the VC pertaining to me, just in case i need it.

-Abe
as if things couldnt get worse w/ my car, i just got HIT AND RUN'ed on while parked out in front of my friends house, buckling the front left fender even more and now my bumpers a total loss. great. F'ing dammit. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/mad.gif

asad
08-17-2002, 11:33 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Well, considering that the exhaust vents exhaust gases, I would say that it has to deal w/ emissions.


[/QUOTE]

That's the problem -- people who think na´vely like you do. The exhaust system is *after* all the emissions equipment -- the EGR, the catalytic converter, etc -- anything that can actually affect the amount of the various pollutants is before the exhaust system. The exhaust system is just used to remove the gases and quiet the sound, not for controlling the amount of emissions.

Asad

Glenn_Sato
08-17-2002, 11:40 AM
w0rd. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

-glenn

HyperTek
08-17-2002, 06:03 PM
this may be off topic, but check out this petition to ban APC products!! It may be kinda stupid, but Im all for it.
http://www.petitiononline.com/tsi/petition.html

mdsdm
08-17-2002, 07:21 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
I wonder if Hot rod boys get this kind of attention. I usually see older guys driving around in souped up 60's cars etc. and its like they are running almost open exhuast, do they get pulled over?? I dont know, I could just picture a cops face lighting up and saying "See, now thats a car, unlike those freakin imports!!".


[/QUOTE]

Actully, most laws are based on the car's year of manufacture. If the car was made before 1966, it doesn't even have to have a pcv valve, the first piece of emissons equipment. I think they started getting EGR between 66 and 70, and cats in 75.

So yeah, they legally drive around without emissions equipment. If you've got a 1970 240z, you could too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

mdsdm
08-17-2002, 07:32 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
That's the problem -- people who think na´vely like you do. The exhaust system is *after* all the emissions equipment -- the EGR, the catalytic converter, etc -- anything that can actually affect the amount of the various pollutants is before the exhaust system. The exhaust system is just used to remove the gases and quiet the sound, not for controlling the amount of emissions.

[/QUOTE]

Sounds like you don't get it either http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif. The exhaust system does start at the exhaust manifold. The EGR is usually plumbed off this manifold. The cat is part the the exhaust system. What else would you call it? What does the E in EGR stand for? That stuff behind the cat is the muffler, but it's still part of the exhaust also.

Terminology isn't this groups strong point. Ex: calling the resonator tube between the air cleaner and the throttle body, the "intake." It's not. The intake is the intake manifold that connects to the head(s).

Those with glass houses...

Mav1178
08-17-2002, 08:35 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Sounds like you don't get it either . The exhaust system does start at the exhaust manifold. The EGR is usually plumbed off this manifold. The cat is part the the exhaust system. What else would you call it? What does the E in EGR stand for? That stuff behind the cat is the muffler, but it's still part of the exhaust also.

[/QUOTE]

Hm sounds like you don't get it either.

The stuff behind the cat is part of the "cat-back exhaust system", not just the "muffler". Yes, it is part of the "exhaust", but it is not simply just a muffler. Manufacturers that tune the car also use the piping after the catalytic converter to tune the performance characteristics of the car, so it cannot be a simple "muffler" definition.

We're all nitpicking now...

-alex

C-Kwik
08-18-2002, 01:46 AM
Abe, Ive already emailed you about this. But I'm seeing a lot of poor info being passed around in here. What a lot of you do not know is that California Law has been changed on this law. It specifically says that if exhaust noise is less than 95 dB, in accordance with SAE testing procedures, it is LEGAL. However, it is really up to the courts to decide whether or not you pay the ticket. Technically, an officer would have to PROVE that your exhaust is illegal, but not all courts are seeing it this way. The trick is to go to court and get the officer to commit to saying that he cited you only because your exhaust is modified. Most cops have enough experience to not commit themselves to something they do not know, like to say your exhaust is too loud without proof. Once he commits, you read off the law and show his error in interpreting the vehicle code. It's actually a simple win. Of course this is no guarantee as the judge will be making the call.

As far as SEMA is concerned, they do not go to court on your behalf. They get more involved in the legislative process and lobbying for new laws, amendments to existing laws and working against laws that are aimed directly at auto enthusiasts. I do urge you to send in your stories about frivolous and harrassment tickets to the SEMA Action Network, and also a copy to Senator Johannsen and the Transportation committee(California Senate, not National).

My advice, learn the laws well enough to argue your way out of it before you get the ticket. I've done this successfully many times. But I will say, if you do not know what your talking about, accept the ticket then read up on the vehicle code, then put it in front of the judge.

I'd urge everyone who does get cited unnessarily to fight the ticket. It is more of a harrassment ticket now, and if we continue to just accept it, the cops will keep citing us.

Chano

240sx2envy
08-18-2002, 02:37 AM
If your car is louder then a cop car you are pretty much screwed. I was talking to a good buddy of mine that is a CHP officer and he said, that the CHP got there cars tested and they test it at 3000 RPM's and the cop car was at 88 deciples. So everything aftermarket is pretty much to loud. It also depends on the year.

Mav1178
08-18-2002, 03:25 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
If your car is louder then a cop car you are pretty much screwed. I was talking to a good buddy of mine that is a CHP officer and he said, that the CHP got there cars tested and they test it at 3000 RPM's and the cop car was at 88 deciples. So everything aftermarket is pretty much to loud. It also depends on the year.

[/QUOTE]

So a 2 year old cruiser that has 90,000 miles on it with a flange on the exhaust leaking sounds the same as a 1 month old Crown Vic that has 700 miles on it?

If what you say is true, then fighting an exhaust ticket would be the easiest thing I've ever done.

-alex

Black2Forty
08-18-2002, 09:09 PM
i dont live in cali so i dont really have 2 deal with these problems, but im about as irritated about it as everyone else. but isnt the noise level supposed to be quieter than 95dB at idle? theres gonna be alot of things that are making more noise at higher RPM. someone correct me if im wrong.

asad
08-18-2002, 09:34 PM
95 decibels is over 5 times louder than 88 dB. Do you think that the average person's ears are finely calibrated enough to tell the difference between something that's, say, "4x" as loud and something that's "5x" as loud? Or even "1.5x" as loud to "2x" as loud? The human ear is a notoriously non-linear detector of sound pressure levels. The ONLY easily obtainable, reliable measurement is one made with a dB meter, such as the kind you can get from Radio Shack.

Asad

Mav1178
08-19-2002, 01:31 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
i dont live in cali so i dont really have 2 deal with these problems, but im about as irritated about it as everyone else. but isnt the noise level supposed to be quieter than 95dB at idle? theres gonna be alot of things that are making more noise at higher RPM. someone correct me if im wrong.

[/QUOTE]

Don't be so sure you don't have to deal with "these problems". Some states prohibit aftermarket (non-OEM replacement mufflers) altogether! At least in CA, the law states that if an exhaust system is under 95db at 3000RPM measured according to SAE standards, it is legal PERIOD. Some states have exhaust laws so vague that fighting the ticket ultimately depends on how the JUDGE sees the law.

I'm not saying this is the case in Oklahoma, but just because some laws are strict in CA doesn't mean everyone is screwed. I've been driving with my setup for over 18 months, and I've had an exhaust on my car for the past 5 years, and I have NEVER been pulled over once for the exhaust.

-alex

**DONOTDELETE**
08-19-2002, 01:41 PM
I hate to correct Asad, but I feel I need to on this one. An increase of 7db is a clearly perceptible change, but does not even double in loudness.

Copied from Mechanical and Electrical Equipment for Buildings (a really big book, Eric knows)

Table 26.3 Subjective Loudness Changes and Corresonding Intensity Level Changes

Change in DB Subjective Change in Loudness

3 Barely perceptible
6* Perceptible
7 Clearly Perecptible
10 Twice (or half) as loud
20 Four times (or a quarter) as loud

*Six decibels corresponds to the change encountered when the distance to the source in a free field is doubled (or halved)

While not the most technical cource, this most accurately represents how a person percieves sound. Now whether or not sound intensity or other attribute of sound is five times greater is a different story, but to a listener, it's almost twice.

Examples of sound levels
140db jet plane take off
130db Artillery fire, riveting gun (threshold of pain)
100db Subway, loud street noise, lawnmower
90db Noisy factory, unmuffled truck, train whistle, kitchen blender
80db Printing press, average factory

asad
08-19-2002, 02:19 PM
hmmm maybe I have my dB's all mixed up. Oh...I think I know where I made the mistake -- 7dB is about 5x the power, but, since the ear is so non-linear, this doesn't correspond to a 5x change in the apparent loudness.

Thanks for the correction.

Anyway, I think the point still stands -- the human ear isn't reliable enough to be used as a judge of sound levels.

Asad

**DONOTDELETE**
08-19-2002, 02:37 PM
No it isn't. Plus the way you add sound levels is rather hairbrained. That's non linear.

In anycase, a hard lined number should not even exist if they aren't going to develop a system of testing or process to go through once cited to prove it isn't. It sounds like they want to write the ticket in hopes of having you pay just out of convienence, rather than guilt.