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Dousan_PG
09-27-2002, 04:03 PM
Not trying to start a political debate, but look at both sides please.

Pulled it off Yahoo! news most popular section.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=127&e=20&u=/020927/7/2bxul.html

WAR CRY
Thu Sep 26,10:02 PM ET
By Ted Rall

The Case for Regime Change



NEW YORK--Making the case for United Nations ( news - web sites) intervention against the United States, Iranian President Mohammad Khatami ( news - web sites) told the organization yesterday that military action will be "unavoidable" unless the U.S. agrees to destroy its weapons of mass destruction.

In a much-anticipated speech to a special session of the U.N. General Assembly held in Brussels, Khatami launched a blistering attack against American leader George W. Bush, accusing him of defying U.N. resolutions and using his country's wealth to line the pockets of wealthy cronies at a time when the people of his country make do without such basic social programs as national health insurance.

"Nearly two years ago, the civilized world watched as this evil and corrupt dictator subverted the world's oldest representative democracy in an illegal coup d'état," said Khatami. "Since then the Bush regime has continued America's systematic repression of ethnic and religious minorities and threatened international peace and security throughout the world. Thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment. Basic civil rights have been violated. This rogue state has flouted the international community on legal, economic and environmental issues. It has even ignored the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war by denying that its illegal invasion of Afghanistan ( news - web sites)--which has had a destabilizing influence throughout Central Asia--was a war at all."

Khatami said the U.S. possesses the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, weapons "that, when first developed, were used immediately to kill half a million innocent civilians just months after acquiring them. No nation that has committed nuclear genocide can be entrusted with weapons of mass destruction."

"Bush has invaded Afghanistan and is now threatening Iraq. We cannot stand by and do nothing while danger gathers. We can't for this tyrant to strike first. We have an obligation to act pre-emptively to protect the world from this evildoer," Khatami said.

As delegates punctuated his words with bursts of applause, Khatami noted that U.S. intelligence agencies had helped establish and fund the world's most virulent terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda, and the Taliban regime that harbored them. "The U.S. created the Islamist extremists who attacked its people on September 11, 2001," he stated, "and Bush's illegitimate junta cynically exploited those attacks to repress political dissidents, make sweetheart deals with politically-connected corporations and revive 19th century-style colonial imperialism."

Khatami asked the U.N. to set a deadline for Bush to step down in favor of president-in-exile Al Gore ( news - web sites), the legitimate winner of the 2000 election, the results of which were subverted through widespread voting irregularities and intimidation. "We favor not regime change, but rather restoration and liberation," he said. In addition, Khatami said, the U.S. must dismantle its weapons of mass destruction, guarantee basic human rights to all citizens and agree to abide by international law or "face the consequences."

Most observers agree that those "consequences" would likely include a prolonged bombing campaign targeting major U.S. cities and military installations, followed by a ground invasion led by European forces. "Civilian casualties would likely be substantial," said a French military analyst. "But the American people must be liberated from tyranny."

Khatami's charges, which were detailed in a dossier prepared by French President Jacques Chirac, were dismissed by a representative of the American strongman as "lies, half-truths and misguided beliefs, motivated by the desire to control a country with oil, natural gas and other natural resources." National Security Minister Condoleezza Rice ( news - web sites) denied that the U.S. maintains weapons of mass destruction and invited U.N. inspectors to visit Washington to "see for themselves that our weapons are designed only to keep the peace, subject of course to full respect for American sovereignty."

The U.N. is expected to reject any conditions for or restrictions on arms inspections.

Experts believe that the liberation of the United States will require a large ground force of European and other international troops, followed by a massive rebuilding program costing billions of euros. "Even before Bush, the American political system was a shambles," said Prof. Salvatore Deluna of the University of Madrid. "Their single-party plutocracy will have to be reshaped into true parliamentary-style democracy. Moreover, the economy will have to be retooled from its current military dictatorship model--in which a third of the federal budget goes to arms, and taxes are paid almost exclusively by the working class--to one in which basic human needs such as education and poverty are addressed. Their infrastructure is a mess; they don't even have a national passenger train system. Fixing a failed state of this size will require many years."

(Ted Rall's latest book, a graphic travelogue about his recent coverage of the Afghan war titled "To Afghanistan and Back," is now in its second edition. Ordering and review-copy information are available at nbmpub.com.)

Toso_the_curb_kisser
09-27-2002, 04:11 PM
That is the greatest thing I have ever read. I'm so glad someone finaly pointed out US hipocracy in a forum like that!

twelve_thirty_flight
09-27-2002, 05:17 PM
Ron Paul, Libertarian Rebublican from Texas, asks 35 questions:

http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr091002.htm

_ronin_
09-27-2002, 05:37 PM
Ya know... im getting pretty sick of people bashing our country! If you don't like the way things are done here... MOVE!

Toso_the_curb_kisser
09-27-2002, 06:37 PM
That was a very intelligent comment...
Have you stopped to consider that one of the things that makes this country better than others is that we can disagree? The 'love it or leave it' argument only serves to weaken us as a people. To only see things one way, to never consider that there might be a differnt way to see or do something. Thats a scary proposition dont you think? How long have we been that way? When was the last time that 2 'opposing' parties actually ran against each other. People just need to open their eyes and think with their own minds, not follow some sentimental reactionary response.

Wobble
09-27-2002, 06:50 PM
ya see the thing is...

US: has nukes, but wont use them unless attacked by nukes or extreme chemical warefare...

CHINA: has nukes, agressive country.. little of any respect for human rights at all, very very agressive country.

Many 3rd world countries: havent got anything to lose and generally dont like the west (US, and allies) nuff said.

IRAQ: Used chemical weapons AGAINST ITS OWN CITIZENS.. nice place the world will be with them having nukes.. wohoo..

the bottom line is that ALWAYS there will be some country. or regeme, or whatver has has a light trump card over everyone else.. and I challenge anyone to think of a better country than the US to have it... we have a pretty spiffy fleet of supercarriers.. so we dont HAVE to use nukes even if the [censored] really hits the fan.. we can be there with conventional means... all other western countries lack the resources to launch a large scale campaign very far from their homeland.. so nukes would be their ONLY option oif things went ass wild too far away..

has the US nuked anyone out of agression? no, even after sept 11th did we turn afghanistan into a radioactive parking lot? no.. now tell me what china would have done of such an attack had happened to them and they had the means to literally vaporize the whole country at will.. would they have hesitated.. would they have thought of the "innocent" people.. hell these people ran over their own college students with tanks just to prove a point..

what about the USSR.. hell its so poor it cant even keep up with its crap.. real safe they are nowadays...


Nukes will ALWAYS be around.. and somebody will ALWAYS have them.. and they are no safer hands that that of the west.. (GB, USA, france.. etc) not some totalirion country like china, or worse yet some regeme like Iraq.. or countless other ****pots..

nukes are here to stay, just be thankful the people thqat have the most arnt totally retarded.


alot of people like to pull this out of their ass:

"the US niked Japan even though it was going to surrender anyway"

this is at best 1/4 true.. Japan WAS under talks of an "armistace".. not surrender..

Japans stipulations for surrender included:

A: they get to keep ALL the territory they had conquered at the peak of their campaign

B: the Allies withdraw ALL ships of ANY kind from the pacific

either of those alone were BEYOND unacceptable top the allies in ANY shape for or fashon.. so their so called "surrender: was a total joke.. it would have more or less handed them victory (and much of china too)

_Nzo_
09-28-2002, 06:17 AM
Boy I really love that list of 35 questions. My favorite: 2. Is it not also true that we are willing to bomb Iraq now because we know it cannot retaliate- which just confirms that there is no real threat?

No real threat? Maybe not yet. This is the most retarded logic ever. Shall we wait until they are able to retaliate? Pure genius.

"Nearly two years ago, the civilized world watched as this evil and corrupt dictator subverted the world's oldest representative democracy in an illegal coup d'état," said Khatami. "Since then the Bush regime has continued America's systematic repression of ethnic and religious minorities and threatened international peace and security throughout the world."
Uhm, what?

Khatami said the U.S. possesses the world's largest arsenal of nuclear weapons, weapons "that, when first developed, were used immediately to kill half a million innocent civilians just months after acquiring them. No nation that has committed nuclear genocide can be entrusted with weapons of mass destruction."
Poor Argument, as he is totally ignoring the circumstances under which the events took place. Someone needs a history lesson.

Khatami asked the U.N. to set a deadline for Bush to step down in favor of president-in-exile Al Gore ( news - web sites), the legitimate winner of the 2000 election, the results of which were subverted through widespread voting irregularities and intimidation. "We favor not regime change, but rather restoration and liberation," he said. In addition, Khatami said, the U.S. must dismantle its weapons of mass destruction, guarantee basic human rights to all citizens and agree to abide by international law or "face the consequences."
ROFLMAO!

About half way through this article I was unsure if it was a joke or not. Im still not sure. This is great comedy.