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View Full Version : Power FC = bad boost Control?



**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 08:29 PM
I talked to a shop and they said they dont recomend using the Power FC as a Boost controler and that there are some spikes using that system.. They got there info from XS-enginering one of the biggest distributers of Power FC in the USA.. What is your Experance with the Power FC and how dose it work for you? Ill be pushing about 20psi at the most.

KenFuji
11-18-2002, 08:51 PM
as far as i am aware of the power fc is not a boost controller. maybe it has an option using the stock boost solenoid, but that is usually junked during the swap. the power fc is used to manipulate the type of mafs and fuel maps withoutgetting your stock ecu reprogramed all of the time.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-18-2002, 09:07 PM
"quote" from apexi site

BOOST CONTROL KIT
The Boost Control Kit is an optional kit designed to control boost through the Power FC. Simple connection to the Power FC allows the user to access a full self-learning boost controller. The Power FC allows up to 4 different boost presets for any stage of driving. The high grade solenoid valve is the same one used in our Super AVC-R boost controller. As with the S-AVCR, the Boost control kit allows increased boost response and boost stability at high RPM's
Complete boost control is possible by using the optional Boost Control Kit (Not necessary for vehicles that come factory turbocharged.). Changing data is easy: just access the desired point on the map or data, and push the FC COMMANDER keys in the appropriate direction.

DRAG_LIMITED
11-18-2002, 09:28 PM
This type of boost control could be compaired to the Greddy Profec-a while the simpiler profec -b is more like a manual boost controler. I am not sure but how I understand it is one of them is good for sequential and the other is good for single or twin.
-Cheers

Society_Mike
11-19-2002, 06:51 AM
well everything I have read from XS engineering tells me that they really don't know alot about what they are doing when it comes to the PowerFC. Especially on 13B motors.
Anyway, they obviously don't know how to set up and tune the boost controller if they claim to see "spikes".
From the 5 different boost controllers I have used personally on my car, and not counting the numerous friends cars, the PFC boost control kit used with the PFC is one of the most accurate controllers you can get. You won't see a spike unless you set the solenoid duty cycle incorrectly which is user error. The solenoid itself used with the Commander and PFC is a very precise combination. Once you learn how to properly operate it, it will be dead on accurate and very reliable.
This further confirms my beliefs about XSengineering. I have seen MAPs done by them and it is very apparent they are not exactly proficient in the PFC department. Im not saying they are not good tuners, they just aren't good PFC tuners.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-19-2002, 01:28 PM
I got my Power FC yesterday now I need a Commander and the boost control unit.. anyone know a good place were I could get both?

turboslut
11-19-2002, 01:43 PM
hey 3lusive any pics of hose rims on your car?

**DONOTDELETE**
11-19-2002, 01:57 PM
actually they are the same as chris from speedalience 5star with 2" lip in the rear and 1" in front they are ADR version II

s13SRmadness
11-19-2002, 03:41 PM
so how much has the pfc, commander, and boost control kit cost? may as well have gone with a true standalone at this point, as far as price is concerned.

champa
11-19-2002, 03:47 PM
what would be a true standalone?

s13SRmadness
11-19-2002, 03:57 PM
tec 3, haltech ek6, etc...

Steeles
11-19-2002, 04:01 PM
but what more is a "true" stand alone going to offer you? you've already got full programability (or near full) with the power FC...?

SRFiveTen
11-19-2002, 04:36 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
may as well have gone with a true standalone at this point, as far as price is concerned.

[/QUOTE]

price out a standalone system that can offer you a monitoring feature, warning lamp feature and programmability without the use of a laptop.

**DONOTDELETE**
11-19-2002, 04:39 PM
What do u think about the Power FC boost control SRFiveTen? or anyone else with experance with the power FC

champa
11-19-2002, 04:46 PM
haltech doesn't have price listings for their ecus. what's a ballpark figure for one?

SRFiveTen
11-19-2002, 04:55 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
What do u think about the Power FC boost control

[/QUOTE]

after a chain of events, i desided to go turbo rather than all-out n/a.
i kept my mafs-less version of the power fc which was designed for s14 sr20det; i intend to add apex-i boost control kit to the set up.
you should know by now that i'm down with power fc.
why would i choose any other form of boost control when apex-i kit opens the door to adaptive self-learning feature within the engine control unit?

hopefully by early next year, i should be up and running boosting around 1.2kgf/cm2 with rx6b turbine and autech s15 cams.

i try not to think about the boost control kit before my bed time http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

SRFiveTen
11-19-2002, 04:58 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
haltech . what's a ballpark figure for one?

[/QUOTE]

last time i looked into e6k, it was around $1300~$1400 plus splicing and programming.

and if you want to weigh that up against power fc, fc commander and boost control kit; you need to add gauges and a boost controller.

one thing for sure, you'll get more tweakability with a standalone compared to power fc with fc commander.
however, would all that be necessary?

'97 S14 SE Turbo
11-19-2002, 05:00 PM
What's the story to drive you to go T/C vs your original NA???

SRFiveTen
11-19-2002, 05:56 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
What's the story

[/QUOTE]

3days after coming out of 90days storage (while i was in nippon), my rear quarter gets banged up pretty hard. car was drivable but written off. i got paid.

i bought a rolling chassis to graft over everything.

several weeks after the insurance check was cashed, i bottomed out on to a manhole cover in a construction zone.
oil pan ate it, front crossmeber was torn off, steering linkage twisted. for sure a "total" this time.
i'm filing claims with los angeles county.
construction was warned, but no mention of unpaved road or rough road. hopefully i get paid again.

i revise my &gt;200ps@7200rpm n/a project. big bills for custom exhaust system, probably would run &gt;$1500 in search of extra 60 ponies.
&gt;$1500 in trick induction.
couldn't really justify that expence, when all i was missing was a turbocharger and intercooler from my current set up.

so, for the rolling chassis, i bought a low km (28000km on valve cover) s14 sr20det short block, it comes with a flexplate wink wink.
i already had a cylinder head from autech s15, it has turbo valves, wildest oem camshafts peaking power at 7200rpm when set up in a n/a motor, matched valve springs (different # from oem det springs).
i bought rx6b turbocharger sub-assembly (still need to score an exhaust housing), it will mount directly on to apex-i top mount cast iron exhaust manifold keeping the snail shell away from my steering gear box.

have on order a custom intercooler for my ride, will be ordering 550 or 740cc injectors along with other turbo related goodies such as waste gate, bov, coffee-can muffler.

my engine management was from s14 sr20det, i have kept all the sensors and accessories from the s14 sr20de motor, sold the motor as a long block, kept the tranny (also have a spare det tranny waiting for o/h with os giken close ratio gears), will be looking into a clutch but first i'll try the n/a nismo metal clutch and see it's limits in my light weight chassis.

meanwhile, my worries are on my r180 lsd diff with 4.11 gears turning ever so tiny 195-55-14s.
i'll be needing highway gears and taller tires.

the turbocharger i bought is similar to gt2835, i should be able to crank out 380ps if my chassis can handle it.....
would i need 380ps? um, no.

that's my story.

PumablK
11-20-2002, 01:42 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
one thing for sure, you'll get more tweakability with a standalone compared to power fc with fc commander. however, would all that be necessary?

[/QUOTE]

In Japan, isn't there an option for a labtop hook-up for the PFC for even more 'tweakability'? I read online some where that one does exist, but the only reason they (article was written for an Aussie audience) don't get it was because it is only in Japanese. Also read in the GT-R forum you can download a program to use with a labtop.

Society_Mike
11-20-2002, 01:53 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
may as well have gone with a true standalone at this point, as far as price is concerned

[/QUOTE]
Well, the PFC is pretty much a standalone, the only difference is not requiring a total rewire of harness, new sensors, and lack of datalogging which is usually an option for extra $ on standalones.
The PFC gives you total control, simply put. Everything you need or want to control, you can. The best part is, you don't need a lap top like with other stand alones. The ONLY thing I wish I had on the PFC that it doesn't have is data logging. It DOES however have Map Tracer which is basically the same but it doesn't record it onto a harddrive somewhere so you can look at it later. It just saves it on the screen, then you make adjustments from there but when you turn it off it won't be there anymore. Thats the only difference.
The datalogging issue isn't that big of a deal really because when im tuning, I get what I need from the Map Tracer and make adustments. Anyway, Datalogit company is working on an interface with the SR20 PFC as we speak.
The PFC/Commander and boost control kit (if you want it) are still less then any full stand alone system out there, and never mind the fact that its just a few minutes to install VS an entire day or days of slicing, cutting, wiring, tracing, bolting, etc. with other stand alones.

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
In Japan, isn't there an option for a labtop hook-up for the PFC for even more 'tweakability'? I read online some where that one does exist, but the only reason they (article was written for an Aussie audience) don't get it was because it is only in Japanese. Also read in the GT-R forum you can download a program to use with a labtop.


[/QUOTE]
Well, PowerFC Pro Excel is the program that Apexi makes and only distributes to authorized Excel Pro shops for tuning and its a closely guarded program with NO public release.. yet. Those shops use a laptop or PC to interface with any PFC using the Commanders Port. Then they can see the FULL maps on a large screen, make adjustments across the map using a mouse VS using the Commander or simply load a pre-saved MAP into the PFC with a mouse click.

garageEPIKtuning
11-25-2002, 01:18 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Well, PowerFC Pro Excel is the program that Apexi makes and only distributes to authorized Excel Pro shops for tuning and its a closely guarded program with NO public release.. yet. Those shops use a laptop or PC to interface with any PFC using the Commanders Port. Then they can see the FULL maps on a large screen, make adjustments across the map using a mouse VS using the Commander or simply load a pre-saved MAP into the PFC with a mouse click.


[/QUOTE]

so let me get this straight. Everything can be accessed by the end-user on the Power FC..thru the Commander of course?

The only difference is that the POwer Excel shops can log directly in and display the full map at once on the screen instead of in portions like on the Commander display? The end-user is not locked out of changing any functions like in the HKS FCON?

Isnt the "boost control kit" for the Power FC just simply the same solenoid that the AVCr uses?

From my reading the wholesale catalog for the Power FC when it was first released in the US market, they were saying that the Excel Pro shops would be carefully chosen, and would have "signature" programs for downloading instant power. Based on this, is the Excel Pro software permitted access to ALL Power FCs? I have a friend here with a PFC in his FD rx7....

I really appreciate this thread... Thinking that I would not have complete control over every function is the only reason that I have hesitated in buying a Power FC.

Sillbeer...if you see this..when you get back in-country.. start looking around..it's time to make some HP... http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

Jeff

SRFiveTen
11-25-2002, 04:30 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Everything can be accessed by the end-user on the Power FC..thru the Commander of course

[/QUOTE]
not quite as everything as the excel shops can access, but imo, the end-user can tweak with more than enough via fc commander.

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
The end-user is not locked out of changing any functions like in the HKS FCON?


[/QUOTE]
excel shops can lock out end-users by using program locks, fc commander is then only useful for monitoring.

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Based on this, is the Excel Pro software permitted access to ALL Power FCs?

[/QUOTE]
yes, all power fc units which are fc-pro compatible.
only the first generation power fc units were not tweakable via excel shop's program.
tunability of power fc is largely dependant on the ability of the tuner as each shop would have the same software.

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Thinking that I would not have complete control over every function is the only reason that I have hesitated in buying a Power FC

[/QUOTE]
fc stands for full computer (probably short for fully programmable) and is superior to sub-computer or piggybacks such as e-manage, imo.

sillbeer
11-25-2002, 05:19 AM
Sometime in the spring I was going to take my car to a power excel shop and have a full tune on my pfc. On the commander theres an option to have everything reset to base settings. Would that option be reseting to the shops settigs or to the original base settings?

Steeles
11-25-2002, 09:35 AM
Hey Jeff get me one too! give me another reason to hit up Myrtle! lol

SRFiveTen
11-25-2002, 12:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
On the commander theres an option to have everything reset to base settings. Would that option be reseting to the shops settigs or to the original base settings?

[/QUOTE]
i have never had my power fc tuned by a shop. so this is my rationalized guess.
you should address this question to the shop.

if the shop doesn't lock you out, i believe you have full control of your power fc via your fc commander.
by reconciling the program, you will wipe out everything but the factory default.

i don't know if them shops can program their settings to become the new default and still let you tweak on the commander.
this is somewhat unlikely, as each shop should dyno tune your vehicle to a point where you do not require further adjustments, unlike what we often hear with the j*t ecu &amp; s-afc.
also, by letting the end-user mess with their base program, they will not be able to stand behind their work.

one thing i noticed while i spoke to few excel tune shops in japan; they don't know much about the fc commander.
they sell them, but they don't use them.

garageEPIKtuning
07-31-2003, 12:58 AM
well everything I have read from X---- tells me that they really don't know alot about what they are doing when it comes to the PowerFC.
Anyway, they obviously don't know how to set up and tune the boost controller if they claim to see "spikes".
From the 5 different boost controllers I have used personally on my car, and not counting the numerous friends cars, the PFC boost control kit used with the PFC is one of the most accurate controllers you can get. You won't see a spike unless you set the solenoid duty cycle incorrectly which is user error. The solenoid itself used with the Commander and PFC is a very precise combination. Once you learn how to properly operate it, it will be dead on accurate and very reliable.




Mike could you maybe PM me? I have a few questions on the BCK in the PFC. I'm overboosting like crazy, and maybe I'm not thinking of something in the right way. I have a lot of experience tuning the AVC-r so it shouldn't be much different dialing in the boost on the PFC..right? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

haxxord
07-31-2003, 01:39 AM
I talked to a local tunner of power fc units, he has ben doing them on hondas and supras for a while now, he has a electical engering degree and and Swares by the PFC boost Soleniod, he should know he has over a 1000hp supra and a DYNO-Jet

shoes59
07-31-2003, 05:58 AM
i bought rx6b turbocharger sub-assembly , it will mount directly on to apex-i top mount cast iron exhaust manifold keeping the snail shell away from my steering gear box.


I didn't realize Apex-i made a top mount, cast iron manifold. I'm not a big fan of the tubular ss units after hearing all the stories of cracking etc. Where can the Apex-i unit be purchased? Any pics? TIA.

SRFiveTen
08-01-2003, 12:36 AM
Where can the Apex-i unit be purchased?


wow, old thread.
since then, my sub-assembly has been transformed to a complete turbocharger assembly with a p20 exhaust housing.
it currently sits atop my work bench sealed in masking tape.

i still haven't purchased the manifold, but when i do and import it, i will take pics.

apex-i top mount cast manifold is designed to work with their rx6b (ihi, ishikawajima harima industries) turbochargers.
ihi flange is slightly different from others.

180crafter
07-23-2004, 09:47 AM
Does anyone have the documentation that comes with the boost controller kit??? I bought a used one and it didnt come with it. If you know where I can get some assistance or you have one..... I need it really really badly. Let me know please.

Dmax
07-23-2004, 11:41 AM
I talked to a shop and they said they dont recomend using the Power FC as a Boost controler and that there are some spikes using that system.. They got there info from XS-enginering one of the biggest distributers of Power FC in the USA.. What is your Experance with the Power FC and how dose it work for you? Ill be pushing about 20psi at the most.



THat's funny you mentioned that, I heard the same from other shops as well, I acually bought my PFC with the boost control kit from Phase2 and Wayne didn't recommend the PFC boost control kit, he said I should go with an AVC-R instead because he said they had mixed fesults with the PFC...


Well I purchased it anyway, did my tuning at P1Auto and I can tell you the PFC boost control kit works perfectly, it comes with the same solenoid as the AVC-R and the only difference is the PFC boost control kit MAP sensor is a 2 bar instead of a 3 bar. Also the PFC boost control doesn't have some of the sophisticated features of the AVCR such as the RPM based boost, scramble boost and self learning mode. But as far as being accurate and holding boost it's as good as the AVC-R.

Refer to this thread for some pics of the solenoid..
http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB9&amp;Number=67798907&amp;page= 0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1