PDA

View Full Version : Gauging intrest on Chromoly suspension components?



**DONOTDELETE**
01-21-2003, 11:09 PM
We are currently making chromoly control arms for 1G DSM's and are about to start making components for the S13 and S14 chassis. Here is what we are looking at making

Front TC rods
All 3 rear links
Front Control arms with replaceable Ball joint
Rear Control arms with replaceable ball joint
Adjustable swabar links

And a few custom parts that will be released later.

All the tubing will be chromoly, tig welded, with chromoly teflon lined heim joints. On the bushing end will be CNC aluminum bushings. They will be able to use urethane if the customer chooses.

For the ultimate racers looking for loosing weight under the car we will also have available front and rear subframes. The Rear subframes for the S13 will have the option of being setup to bolt in a S14 diff straight in. The Front subframes will have options for different Motor mount locations and possible move the steering rack for you RB guys.

As for pricing that has not yet been determined. I can tell you now that the suspension components will be very competitively priced, and we are looking at doing a group buy for the first run of them. I can also tell you that the front and rear subframes will not be cheap, but worth it for the avid racer.

For yall who don’t know the advantages they are as follows

1st. Weight. Our DSM control arms save 8lb alone on each side of unstrung weight

2nd. Strength. Stronger than stock components for heavy drag racers or big time road racers.

3rd. Adjustability. For road racers and autocrosses this is a must. Allows suspension to be perfectly dialed in. Allows for adjustability that the stock components did not have.

4th. Eliminating slop in suspension by replacing rubber bushing with aluminum. More precise handling.

5th. Subframes will reduce the weight by a BUNCH!! Plus chance to bolt in S14 diff straight, and RB engines as a straight bolt in.

We will have the first prototype sets done on the next month. One set is going on my car, which is a low 11 sec drag car, the other prototype is going on a Full out Road and AutoX car.

I am just gauging interest on these.

Thanks

Danny

mattmartindrift
01-21-2003, 11:12 PM
<------ Interested

89SX
01-22-2003, 01:05 AM
Also interested. Very.

MATT_BACK_VASS
01-22-2003, 01:59 AM
so [censored] man its not even funny.


what kind of prices are you talking about??

TUBULAR CHROMOLY HOA!~!!!!~!~!~!~!`1`1`1

chalk me up for the rear [censored].. mainly because it will be lighter and what not.. the fronts .. i dunno.. possibry.. tc rods i dont really care about, i just got the energy suspension front TC rods so i'm good to go.

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-22-2003, 09:56 AM
hmmm. i don't think i would trust the chromoly parts...even in racing right now..alot of the sanctioning bodies are about to ban chromoly cages..since alot of issues have come up about poor welding...

why not design the parts out of aluminum instead?

**DONOTDELETE**
01-22-2003, 10:12 AM
I personally wouldnt trust aluminum controll arms unless they were Forged. Thats just me.

Chromoly is stronger than steel and aluminum as long as it is welded properly. I will have some pictures to post later on the DSM controll arms later. We have a set going on our 900whp AWD DSM this year. As I said before these are Tig welded not mig welded. Too many people try to Mig weld chromoly and you can not get proper penatration with a mig, and you can not inspect the weld like you can a tig.



BTW I wanted to add that we are making Aluminum bushings to replace the stock ones throughout the car also.

I am not sure on the cost yet. I will let you know as soon as I can. I will tell you that the 1g DSM front Control arms are 450 for the pair with Ball joints, Aluminum bushings, grease fittings and all.

We will also offer these cryo treated if you so desire. I will get you the pricing on this also.

Thanks

Danny

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-22-2003, 10:26 AM
what kind of unsprung weight savings do you think you will be able to get?

unless you are going to change the suspension geometry IMO its a big waste of time and money...you would be better off and much easier to put a lighter wheel on the car which would be more helpfull than a lighter suspension..

**DONOTDELETE**
01-22-2003, 10:43 AM
The first point is to be able to change the geometry. I will get you the weight difference asap. As I said the controll arms alone on the DSM (which are very similar to the S13 and S14 arms save 8lb unsprung per side. That is the controll arm alone..

Danny

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-22-2003, 11:12 AM
what part of the suspension geometry do you want to change and why?

i assume you are going to have to stick with a macpherson type assembly...

planb
01-22-2003, 03:53 PM
only interested if the price is substantially less than other independent parts producers, like www.battleversion.com (http://www.battleversion.com) . Otherwise theres just no reason, there are already so many choices on the market. Im talking about the arms in particular.

jeremiah
01-22-2003, 04:27 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Chromoly is stronger than steel and aluminum as long as it is welded properly. I will have some pictures to post
later on the DSM controll arms later. We have a set going on our 900whp AWD DSM this year. As I said before
these are Tig welded not mig welded. Too many people try to Mig weld chromoly and you can not get proper
penatration with a mig, and you can not inspect the weld like you can a tig.

[/QUOTE]

i have a couple things to add here, since i weld chromoly almost everyday. Tig weld. Yes a must. But picking the correct rod is most important for strength. Using an MC rod is best for chromoly and skipping that copper coated crap. Many people also weld chromoly without properly prepping the surface. if the coating on the chromoly isn't completely stripped the weld will surely crack. But im sure you knew all this already. just letting everyone else know.

Mav1178
01-22-2003, 06:57 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
and we are looking at doing a group buy for the first run of them.

[/QUOTE]

Just don't do it here.

-alex

**DONOTDELETE**
01-22-2003, 09:26 PM
I am not doing the group buy here. It will be through the website.

Danny

Mav1178
01-22-2003, 10:13 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
We are currently making chromoly control arms for 1G DSM's and are about to start making components for the S13 and S14 chassis. Here is what we are looking at making

Front TC rods
All 3 rear links
Front Control arms with replaceable Ball joint
Rear Control arms with replaceable ball joint
Adjustable swabar links

And a few custom parts that will be released later.

All the tubing will be chromoly, tig welded, with chromoly teflon lined heim joints. On the bushing end will be CNC aluminum bushings. They will be able to use urethane if the customer chooses.

[/QUOTE]

Your proposal sounds good... except there is one problem...

Cost.

American consumers (especially those in the automotive market and 240SX enthusiasts) are cheap bastards, that's the bottom line. When newbies hear of the price on adjustable rear upper arms (to "fix" camber) they all run away. You also hear of many complaints about pricing of manifold too high, or when someone on ebay sells a manifold for dirt cheap everyone jumps on it.

The ideas are good, it's just that no one on the forum can 1) afford said products, or 2) know what the benefits are even if you told it to them. I've been driving for many years on/off the track, and a few lbs of unsprung weight savings made a tiny difference in the way the car handles. Obviously it improved handling, but not a drastic difference.

One drawback you have to note about aftermarket arms: they will make crashes VERY expensive. OE suspension components can be crushed; aftermarket units cannot (and thus transfers the energy of an impact through to the cabin and occupants.

-alex

**DONOTDELETE**
01-22-2003, 10:14 PM
I'm extremely interested in all the above components!!!

With the replacement rear subframe will you/can you make it like the s15(and s14?) setup for a lower roll center? this seems to be a pretty common thing in Japan, to swap the s13 subframe for a lower roll center s15 subframe for race cars.

and If possible mabye somthing to adjust the front roll center

drifts_14
01-22-2003, 11:07 PM
extremly interested if the cost is right... i'm on the brink of ordering the toe link, upper control arm, and forward link for my rear from battle version, along with the front TC rods. If the price is right is the major concern. let me know when these will come out or email me some more info because i've got a few other local 240 owners that are about to drop some $$ on control arms and tc rods. Drifts_14@yahoo.com

bwalker240
01-23-2003, 12:43 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
The ideas are good, it's just that no one on the forum can 1) afford said products, or 2) know what the benefits are even if you told it to them.

[/QUOTE]

Speak for yourself Alex. Some of use might be interested in seeing how this develops.

I guess my questions for you are about the pricing and warranty of your work.

Thanks

one8hatch
01-23-2003, 01:48 AM
i'd be interested in the front control arms

jeremiah
01-23-2003, 02:03 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
The ideas are good, it's just that no one on the forum can 1) afford said products,

[/QUOTE]

well chromoly isn't real expensive, i think most of the cost would be in spherical rod ends and such(assuming thats what they would be using.) some of those parts would have 10-20 bucks in material into them aside from the welding time.

halz
01-23-2003, 02:36 PM
Definitely interested (particularly in the adjustable swaybar endlinks; make them strong, dang it!)

I don't think i'm too far away from considering the subframes, either..

What I would REALLY like to see, would be a well-done double-a arm conversion kit.

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-23-2003, 02:38 PM
alex..exactly....well put....

and for some of us who actually race..we are looking for MORE negative camber not less....ok some control over bumpsteer would be NICE....but better rims and coilovers will vastly out weight the performance benefit to these parts you are proposing.

PSI_Allen
01-23-2003, 05:55 PM
The biggest advantage these arms are going to have over stock is the lack of play in the bushings and the ease and increase in the amount of adjustment for camber and toe. Also, if we can build a rear lower control arm with heim joints and a balljoint for a price that is competitive with the factory rear arms I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.

I agree that bigger, lighter wheels and a top quality set of coilovers will give the biggest change in handling for the money over anything else. These arms are for the person that already has that and is looking to maximize the amount of grip available at the contact patch. Will they drop your autocross times by 3 seconds? No. But autocrosses are measured to the thousandth of a second for a reason. I would not recommend these arms as the first suspension upgrade for anyone. They are for the people that are looking to squeeze out every last tenth of a second.

I'll be testing the arms for autocrossing and Danny will be testing them for drag racing. We may find a need for slightly different designs for each form of racing. Anyway, there seems to be some interest for these so hopefully we will have some results for you soon.

iHATEstupidity
01-23-2003, 06:43 PM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
I would not recommend these arms as the first suspension upgrade for anyone. They are for the people that are looking to squeeze out every last tenth of a second.


[/QUOTE]

And thus, as per Alex, you are in the wrong forum for such. Most of the people in here are still having trouble getting bad ass Konig Monsoons with super sticky Kelly Road Huggers! So you need to find a venue that has more hard-core enthusiasts who know why they'd want such parts. 87.25% of the folks in here want them too... in their dreamZ.

THINK

'97 S14 SE Turbo
01-23-2003, 06:59 PM
adding to iHATEstupidity's reply, is that the folks that are willing to do so have already gone and done so...

The "hardcore" folks already know of sources for aftermarket arms from Cusco, Tein, Battle Version, Ikeya Formula, etc. Tons of the available.

For the 1% that's the hardcore, don't think there's 50% that would go to the extreme of getting bespoke lower control arms... But if they had wanted... Ikeya Formula already does sell.

Your product offering is 10 years too late...

Mav1178
01-23-2003, 09:26 PM
Allen, since you seem to be genuine I'll be honest.

240SX guys are damn cheap, that's the bottom line. From experiences drawn from shops I deal with on a daily basis (Phase2, JSpec.com, Project D, and all the other "crappy" shops we so highly regard) the #1 complaint is that no one follows through when they talk about buying stuff. If you can make these arms for like $150 for a pair and sell it for that sub-$200 pricing, some people would buy it.

But for everyone else, it is overpriced and not really worth it. I've tried to do group buys on wheels, on other items, and every single time there would be the universal "oh it's too expensive" complaint.

Look at the number of 240SX enthusiasts, and look at a percentage of them that do any type of sanctioned racing (or even know what causes tire wear when lowering a car)... and you will find that your potential market is very small. Add to this the fact that everyone nowadays wants to be "JDM", the potential customers just go away real fast.

Brendan, some of us would be interested, but again, cost is an important factor.

And to address something:

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
The biggest advantage these arms are going to have over stock is the lack of play in the bushings and the ease and increase in the amount of adjustment for camber and toe. Also, if we can build a rear lower control arm with heim joints and a balljoint for a price that is competitive with the factory rear arms I'm sure a lot of people would be interested.

[/QUOTE]

The "advantage" you list is the same "advantage" other manufacturers have.... so how are YOUR arms an advantage over Cusco/JIC/BattleVersion/etc?

And who would be interested in buying OE lower arms? Even if they were, reconditioned lower arms (front) from PDM racing is like $100 each.

-alex

**DONOTDELETE**
01-23-2003, 11:09 PM
I think its a great idea. If you people knew how much money I have spent on my mustang to correct suspension problems you would be grateful to anyone offering up another solution.

When you guys get done protyping your parts email me.
I would be happy to take one of the first sets subframes and all. My 240 is in the basement right now stripped to the bone and Im about to start on the cage. So hopefully you guys will be done before I am.

Send the info here.
Diablo@diablomotorsport.com

Thanks
Matt

PSI_Allen
01-24-2003, 12:24 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
And who would be interested in buying OE lower arms? Even if they were, reconditioned lower arms (front) from PDM racing is like $100 each.

-alex

[/QUOTE]
We'r4e not talking about reconditioned arms. We're looking at building rear lower control arms since these are not offered by anyone else and the only way to replace a rear ball joint right now is to buy a whole arm from Nissan for about $100 each. The arms Don sells are fitted with urethane bushings and are $160 each.

Dousan_PG
01-24-2003, 02:10 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
We'r4e not talking about reconditioned arms. We're looking at building rear lower control arms since these are not offered by anyone else and the only way to replace a rear ball joint right now is to buy a whole arm from Nissan for about $100 each. The arms Don sells are fitted with urethane bushings and are $160 each

[/QUOTE]

I HOPE you mean stateside, because if you are including the whole world you are incorrect.

i am going to get aftermarket LCA. ADJUSTABLE. run about 700+ though.
maybe if you have somethig cheaper i'd be up for it.

i agree w/ alex 100% though. 240sx people are CHEAP. specifically s13 people. there's no denying that. you wont move much. i'd personally go w/ a japanese company for now unless you can show these are just as good. at least i know when i buy Ikeya Formula or Cusco they are reputable companies with these products on the market for YEARS. I dont mind paying more for peice of mind. And i'd buy BV before anyone else. I"d rather support Alex (Battle Version) business or Jspec before i would go this route

either way, best of luck to you. but everything you want to make has been done before.

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-24-2003, 10:06 AM
IMO a switch to a larger tire or different compound makes more sense, especially for road racing..since suspension get damaged ofter from reefing over rumble strips....i just do not see much of an advantage....now if you said you were going to create a totally new suspension geometry and ditch the macphersons...then i would say....yeah..ok that starts to make sense....

re: the other persons statement
as far as mustangs ...you cannot compare them to the 240sx...to get a mustang to handle even 1/2 decently you pretty much have to swap out everything...and even then the 240sx can run circles around them...

**DONOTDELETE**
01-25-2003, 11:34 PM
Here are a few things I want to add.

For one I am not looking at MASS PRODUCING these. These will be hardcore parts for hardcore racers. Once I have a JIG and Prototype made I can make them to order. I want them for my car, Allen wants them for his car. I am going to produce them either way, and I was just trying to find out who else would be considering getting a set. We should have a couple of prototype ones done within the next couple of weeks. I will have pictures, and weights of the components.

I do understand that the market is and old market... But why dont you ask any engine importer how their sales on SR20 RWD motors are doing. They are going up, and have never been higher. The car is getting more popular.

Feel free to give me a call at the shop 501-952-0173 if you have any more questions.

Danny

**DONOTDELETE**
01-26-2003, 09:07 PM
"re: the other persons statement
as far as mustangs ...you cannot compare them to the 240sx...to get a mustang to handle even 1/2 decently you pretty much have to swap out everything...and even then the 240sx can run circles around them.."

Thats an incredibly ignorant statement.

The last autocross event I went to here in Atlanta none of the 240's that were there even came close to my time. Even the SR20 powered cars. At the last autocross my mustang was stock except for springs, wheels, tire, diff. So before you go making anymore stupid comments like that I suggest you check your facts. If you doubt me then come on out to the next autocross in Atlanta.

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-27-2003, 10:45 AM
guess you don't get to many races..... http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif some races from 2002 this year...some of these are supercharged with over 400rwhp..and full suspension..


1 Colin Jennison 01 Ford Mustang Cobra Kumho 59.31
3 Chris Atkins 91 Ford MustangYokohama 63.578
4 Chuck Atkins91 Ford Mustang Yokohama 71.793
1 Adam Hutchinson 89 Nissan 240SX Toyo 58.501

here is one race.... the mustange are 3 classes higher than me in this race....

another race....
3 Chris Atkins 91 Ford Mustang Yokohama 75.485
4 Chuck Atkins91 Ford Mustang Yokohama 81.119
1 Adam Hutchinson89 Nissan 240SX Toyo 68.781

on a even larger track where the v8's "should" do better

2 Rob Cole 86 Ford Mustang Aventis 90.543
3 Colin Jennison 01 Ford Mustang CobraKumho 80.495
5 Chris Atkins91 Ford Mustang Kumho 83.779
2 Adam Hutchinson 89 Nissan 240SX Toyo 78.702


this is only a FEW that i have raced against and seen race..they are HORRIBLE MACHINES.. and quite frankly suck..as far as road race cars go....they don't brake well...you can't trail brake with them, they are sloppy, heavy..unresponsive...the only thing they have going for them is the V8..plus IMO they are ugly as well..

sorry to be so brutal about them.....but i have driven them...and raced against them for years...and they all have sucked....though some of the supercharged ones are fun going in a straight line...

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-27-2003, 10:47 AM
he he...if i am ever in atlanta i would love to come out and decimate your stock mustang...

maybe in the auto -x you were one of the better drivers? that might be more of a possibilty than your mustang being a good car ... http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif

**DONOTDELETE**
01-27-2003, 08:32 PM
My mustang is no longer anywhere near stock.
Oh and I would love for you to bring your 240 down and run it.

I am sure that you would kick my ass. lol

HyperTek
01-28-2003, 02:26 AM
alot of thought about maybe going show route with my car and drop an rb in it... well currently I got some coilovers w/pillow ball mounts that I need to install and will be needing some rear adj. control arms, so If you could come up with these real quick, and have a reasonable price, I would be interested. Hey I'll support the lil guy! Im sure you could use the experience of making your firsts products in small demand have some sort of effect in your future if you produce a good product and good service to those who buy it from you.

Just hope that if you get alot of people interested, that you wont just start making them as fast as possible and leave out quality control.

Chip_Letzgus
01-28-2003, 02:45 AM
I want some rear adj. control arms. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/crazy.gif

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-28-2003, 09:55 AM
show me some results from some of your races...that way we can look at some of the stock cars you went up against...and then compare the results..that way we can see which car would be faster your mustang or my 240sx....

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-28-2003, 10:04 AM
diablo..
what kind of tires are you running on?

**DONOTDELETE**
01-29-2003, 08:04 PM
I was going to run hoosiers on the mustang but I ended up going with Nitto Drag Radials front and rear.

275\40\17 front
315\35\17 rear

Currently I am running a griggs racing suspension setup.
You may know what that is you may not. Doesnt really matter.

I ran a 52 second lap at the last event and the fastest 240 there ran a 54.001.

That guy was pretty fast considering out of the three vipers that were there the fastest one ran a 56.

The fastest car there ran a 50.


Keep in mind I didnt start any trash talking.

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-30-2003, 10:02 AM
so what you are saying is....you think you are going to beat me on a set of nitto drag radials.......!!!!! why not throw on some mickey T's

vs running on a R race tire...or racing slicks????

it really does not matter if you beat 6 vipers, a porche GT1 and a partridge in a pear tree...maybe it was a bad course for the vipers...you know they need room....or maybe they were all bad drivers?

anyway.....what was the fastest car there?

i am assuming this was a parking lot auto X type race no?

**DONOTDELETE**
01-30-2003, 08:00 PM
"so what you are saying is....you think you are going to beat me on a set of nitto drag radials.......!!!!! why not throw on some mickey T's"

You really are a moron arent you. The nitto drag radial has almost the exact same construction as their road race tire. Same compound and everything. Oh yeah and lots of people use them for autocross.

"vs running on a R race tire...or racing slicks????"

No point its autocross its not that serious, kind of like this board its regarded as a joke by the rest of the world.

"it really does not matter if you beat 6 vipers, a porche GT1 and a partridge in a pear tree...maybe it was a bad course for the vipers...you know they need room....or maybe they were all bad drivers?"

Yeah it was a bad course for the vipers thats a good exscuse for running slower than a car that weighs more than yours and has less power

Yeah they were all bad drivers Im sure, since they all go to track days all through out the southeast.

"anyway.....what was the fastest car there?"

The fastest car there was an awd porsche.

"i am assuming this was a parking lot auto X type race no?"

Yep autocross.



Peace out
Matt

P.S. Canada rules eventually it will be the biggest state in the union.

'97 S14 SE Turbo
01-30-2003, 08:06 PM
In my not so humble opinion: Nitto = [censored].

**DONOTDELETE**
01-31-2003, 12:14 AM
what are you comparing them to.

I like the nittos they are very sticky.

The drag radials have a 100 treadwear rating by the way.

As far as street tires go I dont know anything about them there street tires may suck.

Itsuki
01-31-2003, 01:28 AM
Anyways, back to the chromoly suspension..

**DONOTDELETE**
01-31-2003, 03:09 AM
Yeah back to the cromoly suspension.

If you guys are going to be building some anyway.

I would be interested in a set.

Thanks
Matt

'97 S14 SE Turbo
01-31-2003, 05:26 AM
I'm comparing them to everything else in the same class. ie, performance tires... Nitto tires have no sidewall stiffness. Only good for the boring straightliners, not for cornering.

3Leater
01-31-2003, 08:55 AM
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
We have a set going on our 900whp AWD DSM this year.

[/QUOTE]

Since we're off subject anyway....I would like to know where your shop is so that I can come by and check out your 900whp AWD DSM as I do believe it is making more HP than anyone else in the country.

ADAM HUTCHINSON
01-31-2003, 09:50 AM
ok...now i know you don't know what you are talking about.....whoohooo 100 tread wear....my rain tires are 60 tread wear..and my toyo's ra'1 are 40 treadwear....and my bfg's are 00 treadwear....and if you go into slick tires..they are even better!!!!

those are drag tires....not road race tires...they difference in tires even on a small track is worth 2-3 seconds....

vipers are just too big to be any good in parking lot races..you can take them down in miatas...

anyway...have fun with your "rustang"...and lets hope you get out to a real race track with your "nitto drag" tires..and get decimated by a civic...