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Dousan_PG
10-20-2003, 03:34 PM
yo everyone

i just got a free s15 subframe this past week. it had all the arms and 1 broken s15 upright. the rest was intact but i think one of the arms or more) are bent.

another FA member (if he chooses to reveal his identity haha) has one too--we are both unstarted on this project

i recall a few members who have already done it and we are seeking your assistance/advice.

have a few questions though and some things to verify/question:

i apologize in advance, many of these will be answered by myself wheni start putting the stuff on taking pics and tset fitting on a shell car we have. but i ask because it might help me get a headstart and prepare a bit better because im going in with a plastic bag over my head right now.

1. mounting the s15 frame to s13
the 2 rear bushings we are told are 5mm off from the s13 mounting. totalling 10mm. we were told you can squeeze it on or do as yashio did (see below pics). does anyone (in the US or Japan) know of a company (in the USA or Japan) that sells new bushings for this (or solid bushings). japan is ok too, we can get them easily.

2. axles
since i havent measure everything or test fitted the extra diffs and axles w/ the uprights, are axle lenghts different? can we use the s13 axles and s13 pumpkin (with s14 rear cover)? and if we use that, will it mate with the axles properly?

3. uprights
are s14 and s15 uprights the same? weight savings? I need a new one (i forget which side) for the s15 was broken. if weight is different, ill just get 2 s14 ones.

4. arms
can i use any s13 arms on the s15 frame. i know you should use s14 ones but what about toe link and forward rear links? i guess it depends on how much adjustability is needed. ill probably get s14 ones anyways (for ease and i can get adjustable cheap) to put on it.

5. diff mounting
putting the s14 rear cover on the s13 diff (should line up ok?) and front bolts (two to subframe) not sure maybe smeone knows, do we need to a little fab work like how the j30 is (spacer)?

6. any other advice, comments, suggestions, fyis are MOST welcome

thanks!
i will be doing a full writeup, measurement and such when i get it installed. should be on my jan 04 because i work slow and have no rush. full adjustable arms setup with working rear z32 brakes. so takes time. i willtry and post pics, and compare the s13 and s15 frames.

i know there are some members on here who have helped me out a bit and gave me some advice previously, and i would hope they can post some info again. thank you!


Yashio writeup from Drift Tengoku (when i do mine, i hope with the help of FA we can get a similar one)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/p043d46a1286715fae6012b1b0304e783/fc78048c.jpghttp://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/pc8f9f6f693fb9e41bda1cc0cf9e8dea2/fc780486.jpg


full size CUT AND PASTE LINK INTO BROWSER:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/p043d46a1286715fae6012b1b0304e783/fc78048c.jpg.orig.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid56/pc8f9f6f693fb9e41bda1cc0cf9e8dea2/fc780486.jpg.orig.jpg

McGuirk
10-20-2003, 03:38 PM
Best of luck, most changes to your car seem to be great ones! *Punches self in face after remembering the test fitting of gold sideskirts... EEP!* ... but that was just a test fitting. Hope you guys get a good write up on it going for other members!

ruf4play
10-20-2003, 04:05 PM
Actually Yashio Factory torches out the old bushing and welds plates over the bushing mount with new offset holes. I think they just did that in those pics to show that the rubber isolator bushings can be flexed to fit, though I would worry a little bit about fatigue.

My second concern is the S13 rear pumpkin fitment. Thinking that the front mounting points are going to require spacers as dousan mentioned. It might be an easier and neater install to get an S14 pumpkin, but I would prefer to not have to spend that money when a rear cover would do.

McGuirk
10-20-2003, 04:07 PM
Actually Yashio Factory torches out the old bushing and welds plates over the bushing mount with new offset holes. I think they just did that in those pics to show that the rubber isolator bushings can be flexed to fit, though I would worry a little bit about fatigue.

My second concern is the S13 rear pumpkin fitment. Thinking that the front mounting points are going to require spacers as dousan mentioned. It might be an easier and neater install to get an S14 pumpkin, but I would prefer to not have to spend that money when a rear cover would do.



Hasn't he already changed covers in the past?

Dousan_PG
10-20-2003, 04:12 PM
matt:
1) do a search because i kept s13 to s13. i bought my nismo SSS lsd and dropped my pumpkin (2nd one i owned) and replace it (im on the 3rd pumpkin now) with the SSS. all s13.

if you notice the pictures (why i posted them) you would see it is 2 bolt rear, which is like s14.

2) dont post unless you have something useful to add. if its about my car and what ive changed/added please pm me or something.

pls keep this thread to FACT and not misc comments (as your first post was) so we can possibly archive it in the future for others to help and save them time then reading thru the useless posts.

thanks.

KidZelda
10-20-2003, 04:20 PM
Yo,

Like ruff-muff said. It is the bushings .. if the s15 subframe is anything like the s14 subframe, you will need to torch out the bushings and fab something up.

iirc, you can buy offset bushings out of Option mag' so the s14 or s15 rear subframe will bolt up.

Then again, there is some hearsay about it just bolting up from Society_Mike.

I would say, try and install it as is, see it fits, then go from there.

*wishing I still had my s15 subframe* http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
this mod s only for the hardcore ppl. Otherwise, it is really not worth the time and effort.

ruf4play
10-20-2003, 04:50 PM
Zelda - Yo, hook me up with a MAFS until I go PFC-DJ. Don't want to hack up godzira's pretty harness to use the KA24E MAFS... http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

ruf4play
10-20-2003, 04:54 PM
Might pick up an J30 pumpkin to make everything nice and easy. Or maybe an S14. Need to talk this junkyard guy down.

Ahhsk
10-20-2003, 05:27 PM
Just curious, what benefits will the S15 Subframe provide?

Mav1178
10-20-2003, 05:31 PM
1. mounting the s15 frame to s13
the 2 rear bushings we are told are 5mm off from the s13 mounting. totalling 10mm. we were told you can squeeze it on or do as yashio did (see below pics). does anyone (in the US or Japan) know of a company (in the USA or Japan) that sells new bushings for this (or solid bushings). japan is ok too, we can get them easily.



Aaron if I knew you were doing this I would've told you to reconsider...... S15 is wider than S13 by about 1/2". Very comparable to S14 subframe size....



2. axles
since i havent measure everything or test fitted the extra diffs and axles w/ the uprights, are axle lenghts different? can we use the s13 axles and s13 pumpkin (with s14 rear cover)? and if we use that, will it mate with the axles properly?



Are S14 axles the same as S13? If so don't worry about it.

Pumpkin you have the same problem as Z32 diff into S13, not much I can help you there.



3. uprights
are s14 and s15 uprights the same? weight savings? I need a new one (i forget which side) for the s15 was broken. if weight is different, ill just get 2 s14 ones.



Use S14 upright.




4. arms
can i use any s13 arms on the s15 frame. i know you should use s14 ones but what about toe link and forward rear links? i guess it depends on how much adjustability is needed. ill probably get s14 ones anyways (for ease and i can get adjustable cheap) to put on it.




The S15 arms do NOT fit to S13, and vice versa.

-alex

ruf4play
10-20-2003, 05:32 PM
Just curious, what benefits will the S15 Subframe provide?

Stiffer - much more reinforcement.
Antisquat - much less kickup on the LCA mounts. Makes the rear end more predictable.

Aaron thinks it may be lighter too, but I have my doubts.

ruf4play
10-20-2003, 05:40 PM
1. mounting the s15 frame to s13
the 2 rear bushings we are told are 5mm off from the s13 mounting. totalling 10mm. we were told you can squeeze it on or do as yashio did (see below pics). does anyone (in the US or Japan) know of a company (in the USA or Japan) that sells new bushings for this (or solid bushings). japan is ok too, we can get them easily.



Aaron if I knew you were doing this I would've told you to reconsider...... S15 is wider than S13 by about 1/2". Very comparable to S14 subframe size....

Hmmm. Are you referring to track width or the rear bushing mount spacing? If you mean the bushing spacing, then maybe we were off and they meant 10mm offset per side. That would be a lot to flex the bushing. Yuck. If you are just talking about the track width, then that's cool. Just means I don't need to run as much wheel spacer.



Pumpkin you have the same problem as Z32 diff into S13, not much I can help you there.

I tried searching for someone swapping S13 pumpkin into S14 and found nothing. I was thinking about just swapping the rear cover on the S13 pumpkin, but I was worried that the front mounting ears might kick the whole thing down at a weird angle. Then again the "up angle" that I see from everyone that does J30/S14 into S13 seems to be from the removal of the front ear bushings. Could it be that the S14 ears + bushings is the same height as S13 ears? If to then we should be good to go on this.



The S15 arms do NOT fit to S13, and vice versa.

Even the RUCA? Clearance to the coilover?

'97 S14 SE Turbo
10-20-2003, 06:00 PM
S14 and S15 rear suspension arms are the same. Just keep that in mind.

McGuirk
10-20-2003, 06:15 PM
matt:
1) do a search because i kept s13 to s13. i bought my nismo SSS lsd and dropped my pumpkin (2nd one i owned) and replace it (im on the 3rd pumpkin now) with the SSS. all s13.

if you notice the pictures (why i posted them) you would see it is 2 bolt rear, which is like s14.

2) dont post unless you have something useful to add. if its about my car and what ive changed/added please pm me or something.

pls keep this thread to FACT and not misc comments (as your first post was) so we can possibly archive it in the future for others to help and save them time then reading thru the useless posts.

thanks.



Then technically, I am not wrong.











http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif
And I wasn't actually stating something, I was asking a question. Like "haven't you heard of fresh alloy?" is a question, not implying someone had, jeesh.

Tyrone
10-20-2003, 06:44 PM
1. mounting the s15 frame to s13
I can't help you here.

2. axles
S15 axles are the same as S14. I have some if you want to see.

3. uprights
Knuckles are pretty much the same.

4. arms
Some of the suspension arms are slightly differntly, too.

5. diff mounting
Why don't you just get a whole S14 NA pumpkin (junkyard) and swap the guts? Sorry, don't know a whole lot about S13.

6. Maybe the force be with you.

Mav1178
10-20-2003, 11:34 PM
Hmmm. Are you referring to track width or the rear bushing mount spacing? If you mean the bushing spacing, then maybe we were off and they meant 10mm offset per side. That would be a lot to flex the bushing. Yuck. If you are just talking about the track width, then that's cool. Just means I don't need to run as much wheel spacer.



Bushing (subframe mounting points) are off by 1/2". Aaron picked up the subframe from Marco Vargas, and Marco had a S13 subframe there that I measured side by side.... Aaron could've measured it himself on the spot.



Even the RUCA? Clearance to the coilover?



Like TY said, S14/15 arms are interchangeable... Marco had a S15 subframe with all adjustable arms, and half of the rear arms didn't fit to the S13. Mainly, the spacing on the subframe where the arms mount to are different, so S13 arms are too wide for S15 subframe and vice versa. That's why I said it won't work... because someone has already tried. Aaron would have to end up buying a complete set of S14 arms just to use this subframe.... but hey if Aaron has $$$ then by all means go for it.

-alex

Dousan_PG
10-20-2003, 11:36 PM
yeah from marco
couldn't beat the price http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
if i end up not using it..oh well. no worries. hehe

we got a junk car at my friends house (his car) so we can do all that test fitting and playing

adjustable arms should be close to free from a friend. so..project is costing me nearly nothing. cant go wrong. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

thanks for the advice alex, i greatly appreciate your knowledge on it!!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

trsilvias13
10-21-2003, 12:22 AM
s13 pumpkin onto a s14 subframe fits. i did it. i swap out the s14 rear cover from my non lsd then put it onto the s13 lsd using the axles from the s13 becuase it was 5bolt star pattern. it fits nice. i use the s13 bushing onto the s14 subframe becuase the bolts was shorter or longer, i fergot which one.

FreeThinker
10-21-2003, 04:08 AM
I would do the idea of welding plates on the rings and then just drilling offset holes, but you could even use some subframe spaces since they have slots to the side for sliding them in, and that would let them take up the 5mm per side for sure.

I'm pretty sure S13 halfshafts are a bit shorter than S14 and Z32 shafts are a bit longer than S14 but work on S14. Either way the S13 shafts should work in the S15 subframe since CV's can take up the difference. I'm also fairly sure the S15 and S14 subframe are wider in track width too, not just subframe mounting points.

-Sean

Steeles
10-21-2003, 08:51 AM
I tried searching for someone swapping S13 pumpkin into S14 and found nothing. I was thinking about just swapping the rear cover on the S13 pumpkin, but I was worried that the front mounting ears might kick the whole thing down at a weird angle. Then again the "up angle" that I see from everyone that does J30/S14 into S13 seems to be from the removal of the front ear bushings. Could it be that the S14 ears + bushings is the same height as S13 ears? If to then we should be good to go on this.




the S13 ears are still skinnier than the S14 with the bushings.. but not by much (been over a year I forgot the measurments but I've got two washers stacked on either side of the ears on my S13 pumpkin to get it back even. (measured both bushings on the S14 ears marked the center and then matched that center up and added washers to keep the width the same) makes for a noisey solid mount on the front but angles still line up. been in and running for a year and a half. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

minuteman
10-21-2003, 10:45 AM
I wonder if you could talk to splparts about ordering their solid subframe bushings with the hole offset, shouldn't be hard to do if they make them in-house.

Mav1178
10-21-2003, 02:13 PM
I'm also fairly sure the S15 and S14 subframe are wider in track width too, not just subframe mounting points.



More like, 100% sure. S14/15 rear track is wider.

Same with front.

-alex

Dousan_PG
10-21-2003, 04:56 PM
thanks for the help and advice and info everyone
ill probably put it on (since its basically going to be a completely different subframe--i already ahve the s13 one pretty ncie w/ arms and all) and see how it goes. if i dont like it/doesnt work out how i like, ill swap them back. no worries

thanks again! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif ill post pics/specs/weights/measurements etc and all this weekend if i get a chance to do that.

minuteman
10-21-2003, 05:03 PM
the S14 lower control arms are 15mm longer than s13 arms, if the front subframes for both cars are the same, is it safe to assume that the rear track is 15mm wider on each side?

Mav1178
10-21-2003, 05:17 PM
No need to assume, all the info you need can be found at www.socal240sx.org (http://www.socal240sx.org)

-alex

ICESoft
10-21-2003, 09:37 PM
I would do the idea of welding plates on the rings and then just drilling offset holes.....



I'd go with this idea also, except that I would probably weld a chunk of pipe into the center of it where the stud goes through as well to keep it from wearing into the plates.

Regards,
Benjamin Jennings, MCP
'95 240SX Champagne Gold <--- VG30ET Swap in progress

SuperHatch
12-23-2003, 12:09 PM
I wonder if you could talk to splparts about ordering their solid subframe bushings with the hole offset, shouldn't be hard to do if they make them in-house.



You're right, it shouldn't be hard to do, but it is definately harder than what they currently offer. The hole being centered on the mount makes it very easy for a CNC lathe to punch the hole in the same program that turns the bushing shape. If you offset the hole, you need to turn the outter profile, then take the part, put it in a mill, index it into place, then drill the center. Not terribly hard at all, just hard when compared to the existing process, so the price would definately go up. Machinig time is at least doubled by doing this.

- Steve

Kouki14
06-07-2004, 08:37 AM
Sorry to bring this up from the dead but.... i did this this past weekend.The allignment can be made to fit. kind of a tight squeze but it does fit. i used all s15 arms except for the camber arms. Swaped out the rear diff cover with an s14 one. Everything lines up perfect. Let me tell you that it is a lot stiffer and the rearend is completly planted now. Just overall feels a lot better. The nuckles i used were from a gtr cause i use 32 gtr rear brakes. If you are looking for more information pm me and ill do my best to point you in the right direction.

Kouki14
06-07-2004, 08:44 AM
Doh forgot some stuff. You will lose all of your member exhaust hangers now. the s15 mounts almost exactly opposite the s13. I just use teh 2 in the rear by the bumper and so far no problems. And also you will nee to cut the metal support brace in the fron attachment points because it will no longer bolt up to the body. Not a big deal just a 20 sec cut. I really suggest this to any drifters or dragers out there.