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View Full Version : Kaaz install dilema, yes i have fsm, and searched!



dorimaster
10-21-2003, 06:29 PM
Well i am installing my kaaz or should i say stopped installing when we came across a few issues.

I work at Lexus and have set up 4 lsd's (toyota&GM) in the past and 2 spools(4wd), no issues. BUT the spacers that were in on the left (upright looking into diff from rear-car perspective) the large 7.95mm and the 2.045 ones wont go on that same side, they will however fit in the other side (right) but there is still far too much gear to case play? Kaaz says if you use the same spacers in the same locations there should be no issues!? the diff wont even accept them on the original sides! meaning fit in the case, The open diff's spacers were also set up the same way using nearly identical spacing and having the larger one on the left. Is any one else run across this, or always the same spacers work? I am using the ring and pinion from the vlsd as the thickness is nearly double of the open ring gear itslef(should be stronger), and a better ratio.

We can just restart and reshim correclty if there was info to go by, if that is availible?

Also a simpler question i have: i have the correct bearing caps on the correct sides but dont remember which way the #'s face, in or out, or smae ways? or maybe that's not how u tell, but perhaps its the yellow dots which are on either the top or bottom, depending on which way they are in, can anyone verify?

This info is strangely not in the fsm and Alex's post doesn't show that. But im sure someone here can answer something.

Thanks in advance for your reply's.

asad
10-21-2003, 06:40 PM
BUT the spacers that were in on the left (upright looking into diff from rear-car perspective) the large 7.95mm and the 2.045 ones wont go on that same side, they will however fit in the other side (right) but there is still far too much gear to case play? Kaaz says if you use the same spacers in the same locations there should be no issues!? the diff wont even accept them on the original sides! meaning fit in the case, The open diff's spacers were also set up the same way using nearly identical spacing and having the larger one on the left.



You must be doing something wrong. The shims and spacer should fit. You will need to tap the spacer (the thick one) in with a hammer. Have someone hold the diff while you install the left side shim and spacer -- I had issues with the diff shifting a little and nothing would fit. It's easier with two sets of hands.

It's not outside of the realm of possibility, though, that you need to reshim.




Also a simpler question i have: i have the correct bearing caps on the correct sides but dont remember which way the #'s face, in or out, or smae ways? or maybe that's not how u tell, but perhaps its the yellow dots which are on either the top or bottom, depending on which way they are



It's easier than that. The bearing caps are asymmetric -- if you look at them, one side is curved while the other side is straight. The curved side faces outward, IIRC. If that's not right, you can just match them up by looking at which part of the diff case matches the curved and straight sides of the bearing caps.

edit: yes, the curved side faces outward. Here's a pic:
http://apps.freshalloy.com/albums/AsadMisc/aah.sized.jpg

Notice how the diff case curves in at the top and bottom of the bearing caps? Well, it's sorta hard to see because the flange is straight, but trust me...

Asad

dorimaster
10-21-2003, 08:29 PM
Could that spacer have been on the right then all along? Or should they all be on the left? We may have thought left when it was right but im 90% sure on this, can anyone tell me if thiers were on the left? I can try again, also does that thick one go on the inside or outside of the thin spacer? Or does that even matter? I will try rearranging them tomorrow.

Also can't see listed the torque specs on the bearing caps?

Pete

asad
10-21-2003, 08:32 PM
Could that spacer have been on the right then all along? Or should they all be on the left? We may have thought left when it was right but im 90% sure on this, can anyone tell me if thiers were on the left? I can try again, also does that thick one go on the inside or outside of the thin spacer? Or does that even matter? I will try rearranging them tomorrow.

Also can't see listed the torque specs on the bearing caps?




All the information you need is in the FSM! Look in the diagram, it's all there.

Asad

TBreu007
10-21-2003, 11:03 PM
Time for your lecture
1. The fact that you've purchased a $1000 diff, changed the R&P and not taken the time to propperly setup the diff with the correct preload, backlash, etc. makes me worry the diff won't last long. I hope you have no plans for the car as a track car, because the diff and R&P won't last three events unless everything is close to perfect...I'm talking about an environment where .01" is HUGE and measurements in the .001" are standard!
2. Take better notes next time. The large spacers go on the ring side of the carrier. If they don't fit in now, the number of shims might need to be changed to make everything right. Where's your feeler gauges?

I'm not writing this to be a jerk, just to let you know how important a proper diff. install is. The tolerences are just as critical in a diff. as a motor build, and either can leave you stranded when done incorrectly.
Good luck

asad
10-21-2003, 11:18 PM
1. The fact that you've purchased a $1000 diff, changed the R&P and not taken the time to propperly setup the diff with the correct preload, backlash, etc. makes me worry the diff won't last long. I hope you have no plans for the car as a track car, because the diff and R&P won't last three events unless everything is close to perfect...I'm talking about an environment where .01" is HUGE and measurements in the .001" are standard!



I used to be of the same mindset as you. However, my own experience plus the experience of many others has told me that, for the most part, the machining tolerances from the Nissan factory and the aftermarket diffs available are good enough that, often, reshimming isn't necessary. When I installed my Kaaz, I measured the ring gear backlash and it was perfect with the original shims. Many others have had similar experiences. I'm not saying that you'll *never* have to reshim a Nissan diff -- I'm just saying that it's not unreasonable to think that it can be installed without having to reshim.




2. Take better notes next time.




Agreed 100% http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Asad

TBreu007
10-22-2003, 12:06 AM
When I built my Quaife, everything was just a few thousanths off, but still okay...I assume because of wear (car had 100K+ miles before racecar transformation). I took it completely apart and replaced R&P with 4:36 and everything was WAYYYY off...complete reshim of the entire diff...carrier shims, pinion height, pinion preload, pinion depth, etc. If I didn't check everything, it would have been fried the first time I used it...I've seen it happen to racer/mechanics more experienced than me that missed one little thing.

asad
10-22-2003, 12:27 AM
When I built my Quaife, everything was just a few thousanths off, but still okay...I assume because of wear (car had 100K+ miles before racecar transformation).



My car had about 100K when I put my kaaz in -- the ring gear backlash ended up being a little to the tight side of the factory spec! IIRC, the spec is 0.0039-0.0059", mine measured at 0.0045. I didn't check the bearing preload but everything felt fine to my finely calibrated biological torque wrenches (my hands http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) -- so far so good, no problems yet -- knock on wood.



I took it completely apart and replaced R&P with 4:36 and everything was WAYYYY off



I'm not surprised...you're changing a lot of variables with a new R&P. It's generally not an issue when just changing the diff.

Asad

dorimaster
10-22-2003, 07:05 AM
I do understand how to set up a diff, i have all the settings from the fsm: backlash, prelaod, runout, ect.. Didnt you understand that i know that? I'm not some 15 yo newbie here, the FSM does NOT have the bearing cap tq spec as why i asked!? This unit was $550 my cost not 1 g http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Pete

asad
10-22-2003, 09:20 AM
I'm not some 15 yo newbie here, the FSM does NOT have the bearing cap tq spec as why i asked!?



YES, it DOES. Look in the exploded diagram of the diff.

Asad

dorimaster
10-22-2003, 10:04 AM
I had to return the fsm back to nissan and didnt get to see it what is it?

Pete

phase2
10-22-2003, 10:26 AM
65 - 72 ft. lbs.

AJ_SPEC
10-22-2003, 01:58 PM
damn, sounds a bit more complicated than a simple bolt-in. I'm not sure if I want to do this myself...

Mav1178
10-22-2003, 02:35 PM
damn, sounds a bit more complicated than a simple bolt-in. I'm not sure if I want to do this myself...



The point of my writeup originally was to show people what the install looked like. It was NOT intended as a guide nor as a reference for DIY installations of a new LSD. If you have any doubt DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF. Take it to someone who has done the diff install, because if you don't know what you are doing you rish damaging your diff and throwing away your money.

-alex

RDM_II
10-22-2003, 06:00 PM
You guys all need to relax. Pete knows what he is doing, I spoke with him last night and we went over some of the specs, but there are some numbers NOT in the FSM, I checked.

TBreu007
10-22-2003, 10:10 PM
I had to return the fsm back to nissan and didnt get to see it what is it?

Pete



Well then I guess you don't have the FSM like you originally said. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Mav1178
10-22-2003, 11:53 PM
but there are some numbers NOT in the FSM, I checked.




My FSM in front of me has the bearing cap torque specs clearly marked on page PD-12 for the R200V differential.

PD-11 for R200.

-alex

dorimaster
10-23-2003, 06:54 AM
THANKS GUYS YOU REALY HELPED!

Yes i had the fsm, and had to return it the next day to my friends at Nissan, and needed more info than i took out and/or couldn't find so i asked my compadre R.! Thanks!

Any ways i solved the mystery of the spacer! I mentioned previous that the j-30 ring gear was much beefier, the difference is exactly that of the larger spacer meaning it has to go on the right side instead of left(as indented and has the housing cut deeper inside that cap for it) if in the 240's housing. I wish i had a digital camera to show this, but the contact area on the teeth are exaclty the same as the 240 gear, but reversed for j-30 ring an pinioin, and the caps are still containing all the bearing race's with out overhang.

SO with that known anyone else ave the thickness on other ring gears from r200's? The thickness for the 240's (97) open diff is 26mm, while the ring gear from the j-30-t's is 34mm thick!

Pete

dorimaster
10-23-2003, 06:41 PM
And to add one crazy tid-bit...
While installing the out-put shafts I noticed that one of the vlsd ones didn't work. I needed each of the shorter ones from the 97' 240 and the j-30 work perfect!! No cutting down required or ordering ones from Japan or Kaaz!I know it seems odd, and yes this is the older Kaaz model, but i say this to let others know that you can use a 96' j30 and 97' 240(open) output shafts fine!

Pete

slw240sx
04-06-2005, 10:02 PM
Sorry to bring back such a old thread, but i just had my Kaaz installed. im pretty sure it was correct. i had a trusted mechanic install it, but i has a tiny free play before the gears engage. i have it back in the car, but knowing i paid so much for it i want to take it back out and just double check it.. just for peace of mind i guess.

ive searched all over and havnt found much technical info. this thread mentions, there are two spacers on the left side of the diff when your looking at it upright from behind the car. and that they measure roughly 7.95mm and 2.045mm. i have calipers and such, so im goin to take this appart and measure it myself, are there spacers on the right side of the diff? i was there when he did this but i cant remember the details for the life of me. we did this about 2weeks ago,and in about 20mins.

also can the bearing caps be put on backwards?? and if so can it do any harm?

thanks in advance

Jon

asad
04-07-2005, 08:41 AM
Sorry to bring back such a old thread, but i just had my Kaaz installed. im pretty sure it was correct. i had a trusted mechanic install it, but i has a tiny free play before the gears engage.



there's supposed to be a tiny bit of free play (backlash) between the ring gear and pinion gear. IIRC it should be about 0.0039"-0.0059" measured at the edge of the ring gear.




ive searched all over and havnt found much technical info. this thread mentions, there are two spacers on the left side of the diff when your looking at it upright from behind the car. and that they measure roughly 7.95mm and 2.045mm. i have calipers and such, so im goin to take this appart and measure it myself, are there spacers on the right side of the diff? i was there when he did this but i cant remember the details for the life of me. we did this about 2weeks ago,and in about 20mins.




There should be one shim for the other side as well.




also can the bearing caps be put on backwards?? and if so can it do any harm?



I believe they can be if they're rotated 180 degrees. It's possible that it could cause problems since the bearings and caps are line-bored during manufacturing so they're designed to stay on their respective sides.

edited to fix some numbers

Asad

eliterit
04-07-2005, 12:56 PM
just thought i'd chime in on this post.

i've had my kaaz 2way installed for 5-6 months now, daily driving and drifted at 4 events so far and havent had a problem with my kaaz 2way (san2655).

I installed the diff myself and kept the spacers exactly how they were setup on the old open diff, unfortunately i didnt have the tools to measure backlash, etc.

I'm just glad to hear that someone here did install it the way i did and got good measurements that are in spec by keeping the spacers exactly how they were.

thats all

slw240sx
04-07-2005, 04:08 PM
thanks asad, im pulling the diff out now to double check, most likely its correctly and im just being paranoid again. but better safe then out a 900$ diff.