My supercharged engine is fried

[mnj123]

Maybe some of you technical experts out there can offer some advice on this tale of woe. I have a 2004 G35 Coupe 5AT. I had the ATI Procharger and Borla catback exhaust installed with about 2,000 miles on the car. There were no other mods. All installation was to ATI specs by an authorized installer. The fuel management unit was set conservatively, and I didn't try to increase the boost. The engine was tuned on a dyno. I had the dealer change the oil to Mobil 1 at about 3,000 miles. I've only used 91 octane gas.

I drive pretty conservatively. After putting about 2,000 miles on the supercharger, I pushed it to about 7,000 RPM (briefly). This blew a lot of oil out of the breather tube. My dealer said there should never be blow-by from the breather tube, so I may have engine damage. My tuner said blow-by is normal, but that my car was doing it more than other supercharged G35s. The car continued to run fine, but oil spillage continued.

The tuner suggested a fix that ATI concurred with - run the breather tube through a one-way check valve, and then connect it back to the intake manifold (as in the stock set-up). But this caused more oil leakage from the crankcase. So the tuner undid that, and put a filter at the end of the breather tube. But the filter smoked excessively. I also noticed smoke coming from the engine at idle when the oil filler cap is removed. So I had the tuner run a compression check. The results:

Cylinder #1 - 220
Cylinder #2 - 150
Cylinder #3 - 170
Cylinder #4 - 115
Cylinder #5 - 170
Cylinder #6 - 80

Only one cylinder has strong compression, and one is clearly dead. The tuner believes I need a new engine. The engine has only 6,000 miles on it.

Questions for the experts:
1. What caused this problem?
2. Do I really need a new engine, or could there be another fix?
3. How much are new engines anyway?
4. Is this a warranty claim with either Infiniti or ATI?

[xlacrosse]

nothing new man... tons of people are blowing cylinders 5 or 6 .... the plenum seems to causes these 2 cyclinders to run much more lean than the other 4.... and compression in the 180 range should be fine... but your motor needs a rebuild. I think in the last week 3 or 4 people have killed there boosted motors 2 greddy and 2 ATI... Best of Luck. If you would of run a crawford plenum, i bet this would not of happened.

[xlacrosse]

new motor is around 3500 for a junkyard motor and maybe 7000 new. PLus dealers want about 4000 to insall.

No way ATI will cover this. and the same goes for infiniti.

[G35CK]

Ah, just put 2 quarts of Prolong in there and drive it til the darn thing gives up.

[Salvador]

That really blows. Wasn't somone offering a warranty with the blower installs?

Sal

[al503]

That really blows. Wasn't somone offering a warranty with the blower installs?

Sal


Only stillen offers a warranty on the engine and drivetrain? for an additional sum. Vortech offers a warranty on the supercharger itself. Don't know about ATI though. GReddy does not have any kind of warranty.

[BaitFish]

Only one thing stood out reading your post. If your tuning didn't account for running the engine up to 7,000RPM, then that's a concern. Boost at 7,000 is going to be even higher than at 6,500, akin to changing pulleys for getting more boost at 6,500.

Sorry to hear about it man. Unless something's really wrong with the block, you won't have to get a "new" engine. You now have the opportunity to build it for forced induction, stronger con rods, lower compression pistons, etc. You're going through some heartache but it could be even better afterward http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif I don't envy you however. I'd be crushed as well.

Check out the Engine/Performance and F/I forum over at www.********************** (http://www.**********************) They'll have all the info you need on engine building. SGP comes to mind for the components I mentioned above.

[zimbo]

The common trait in the blown ATI and Greddy kits is a lack of timing retard. Even running conservatively rich, if you don't counteract the ECU's predisposition toward advancing the timing in the upper RPM ranges, you're gonna blow the motor.

Even a well-tuned engine can have issues and premature wear. I'm planning to do a compression test soon myself.

--Steve

[99atlantic]

this sure seems like a common topic around here- my s/c blew my engine...

[notlownf]

Wow sorry to hear that. I hope it all works out for you.

[SukairainKupe]

Sorry to hear that http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

That's why the only supercharger (or FI for that matter) I would ever consider is the Stillen. Aftermarket warranty is an absolute must IMO, especially for our Infiniti. Counting the replacement cost, reinstall supercharger, loss of value on resale and teh inherent lack of resale value on modded cars, it would be cheaper to buy a used Porsche and sell it in a few years.

[lawman]

So much for the Magnuson Moss Act mantra.

[gte192t]

I'd say take out the supercharger, put back on your stock hood and try your luck with Infiniti.

I'm not saying lie, but you don't have to spill your guts either.

-Chris

[JJS]

So much for the Magnuson Moss Act mantra.




I'm curious as to your meaning here. He puts on a S/C, which puts tremendous stresses on the combustion chamber, and now has problems that are related to the combustion chamber. No way should Infiniti's warranty have to cover this. It comes with the territory. I put an aftermarket turbo on a car almost 20 years ago. It was not fully developed, I blew an engine - I paid for a new engine. Nobody to blame.

[Caper]

Not to hijack the thread (but I am) what ever happened to the DreamWorkes Racing supercharger kit? That was supposed to be dealer installable and have a 48,000 mile engine warranty. I haven't read anything on this board about anyone having one installed though.

[lawman]

So much for the Magnuson Moss Act mantra.




I'm curious as to your meaning here . . . No way should Infiniti's warranty have to cover this.



We're on the same page. I've just heard those who sell parts (superchargers) whip out the Magnuson Moss Act to encourage the sale of those parts. I'd be interested to hear some of their intricate sophistry now. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[mnj123]

This is one of the reasons I asked why the engine damage happened. If the SC caused the damage, Infiniti should not warranty it, and I'm OK with that. But there are a lot of people out there who have done more radical modifications to this engine, and have driven it harder, without any damage. Why is that? Was there an engine defect from the factory? If so, Infiniti should cover it. Was there a defect with the SC? If so, ATI should at least cover the cost of the SC. Or was this just bad luck?

[Nuckle]

mnj123, Dont listen to the crap. You get what you can out of whoever you can. If you can get Infiniti to pay for the engine then I say NICE!. If you can get ATI to step up then that would be great as well. Both companies have way more money than any of us plus have about 200%+ mark up on their product. Good luck and I hate to hear about your luck.

Nuck

[timware]

I've seen low mile VQ35DE's sell on ebay for less than $1000.

[gdupg35]

I say you try your luck with removing all of your engine related mods, and claim ignorance with at the local Infiniti dealership. If they don't know you had a supercharger, they can speculate all they want about what caused the engine to fail. Is it fraud? Probably. But screw the dealership, they rape people on a constant basis. It's no skin off their back.

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove"

[RandyWatson]

VQis the perfect stock engine. With F/I, it is out of it's league unless you pretty much re-build it from the inside. It's not a F/I engine.
I think this is the MAIN reason for the dealy of the GT-R. They can't figure it out. F/I reliable with this engine. And they won't use the 4.5 V-8 from the Q45.

Sorry to hear this dude. Looking here, 350Z and other G35 forums, this is almost normal.
Who wants an F/I engine if you can't push it?

[SukairainKupe]

I say you try your luck with removing all of your engine related mods, and claim ignorance with at the local Infiniti dealership. If they don't know you had a supercharger, they can speculate all they want about what caused the engine to fail. Is it fraud? Probably. But screw the dealership, they rape people on a constant basis. It's no skin off their back.

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove"



I hope you were kidding about that. Infiniti has one of the best customer service departments in the industry and this is how some consumers should take advantage of that? I don't think so. It's fraud, and if you ever get caught with it, you will suffer the consequences for years to come. Very bad advice, especially on a public forum.

[GrndMstrG]

I say you try your luck with removing all of your engine related mods, and claim ignorance with at the local Infiniti dealership. If they don't know you had a supercharger, they can speculate all they want about what caused the engine to fail. Is it fraud? Probably. But screw the dealership, they rape people on a constant basis. It's no skin off their back.

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove"



I hope you were kidding about that. Infiniti has one of the best customer service departments in the industry and this is how some consumers should take advantage of that? I don't think so. It's fraud, and if you ever get caught with it, you will suffer the consequences for years to come. Very bad advice, especially on a public forum.




Im with gdupg35 here...you must be one of those guys that actually believes pro atheletes or celebrities give a damn about you.

At the consumer level, customer service is great (so far in my experience) at infiniti. Customer service is out to make the customer happy and keep them comming back...that is there job. However, top level managment is all about making money and they will only care about you just enough to keep you comming back to buy more. People with experience running any large successful company should at least see what I am trying to say.

Ya...it wouldn't be the most ethical thing, but then again if he threw on a S/C in the first place...you think he's doing the speed limit?? (there go ethics!)

All I am saying is that just because Infinit sold you a car that you like, it doesn't mean they are your friend. Infiniti is a huge multi-national automotive manufacturing company, a new VQ engine isn't worth a second thought to them.

A few months ago I spilled juice on my computer keyboard...completely screwed it up. It is a $100 wireless keyboard/mouse combo kit from Logitech. Instead of buying a new keyboard, I just went to Best Buy (where I bought the keyboard) and bought a new keyboard/mouse set. I swapped the old keyboard with the new keyboard and took the package back to Best Buy. I have a new keyboard now and it didn't cost me a cent...

Ethical...heeeeeell no http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

How about we talk about how *honest* we were on our 2003 taxes and much money we all saved by telling the honest truth! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

The business world is crazy...and if your not making them money, you better be somehow saving them money, otherwise they dont care who you are.

Don't lie, dont cheat and dont steal...be good to others and others will be good to you. Does that apply to a new VQ engine since he blew his by super charging it? Ya...but if I were him..I wouldn't have a problem sleeping at night if I told infiniti I dont know why my engine is messed up and they wound up replacing it http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(let the flaming and star-deduction begin http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

Gabe

[lawman]

I'm speechless!

[selzini]

Hey, GrndMstrG, you're one of the reasons things cost more than they should. Whether you call it breakage or loss by theft, businesses have to make up the difference by raising prices. I'd bet that you're one of those people who walks through super markets eating the produce. I wish I could use one of my Schmailis here(you know, one with the middle finger), but I can't get it to copy. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/frown.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[fnt]

A few months ago I spilled juice on my computer keyboard...completely screwed it up. It is a $100 wireless keyboard/mouse combo kit from Logitech. Instead of buying a new keyboard, I just went to Best Buy (where I bought the keyboard) and bought a new keyboard/mouse set. I swapped the old keyboard with the new keyboard and took the package back to Best Buy. I have a new keyboard now and it didn't cost me a cent...

Ethical...heeeeeell no http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif



You mean you returned your damaged keyboard to Best Buy and got a refund for it?

I don't consider myself naive, but I think that people have to be able to assume a basic level of honesty in their interactions with others, whether in business or any other sphere. I know that it's easy to think of large companies like Best Buy and Infiniti as deep pockets who couldn't care less about an extra keyboard or engine, but the truth is that somebody does pay, and it's usually the consumer.

Consider this: How would you react if you found out that a part that Infiniti installed on your last service visit wasn't new and would probably fail just after the warranty? I bet you'd be incensed, as you'd have a right to be.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I think these actions are morally equivalent and equally wrong.

[UK350GT]

let he without sin cast the first stone.

ever been given to much change at a gas station or mart, did you take back? ever had fare free train or bus ride? We've had or tried to get something for nothing at some time. We are talking bout corporations, not ripping off some individual. Like someone said "its nothing personal"

You know there is a risk when you do such a mod. I imported a new 350GT into the UK. Do you think those "nice" people at Nissan/Infiniti will cover my car with a warranty.... the answer was NO. I accept it wasn't personal.

[zimbo]

So rather than discuss the reasons why this may have happened or discuss what's needed to make FI on the VQ35 reasonably safe, we've degenerated into a discussion of ethics. Typical.

The ATI kit has no timing retard. That is absolutely, positively, freaking crazy if you ask me.

Let me ask... Does the car feel noticeably incapable or was the oil misting the only give-away? Did you ever hear "shaking BBs in a can"?

--Steve

[jburnham]

Me too - but I'll try anyway. There are three kinds of people in this world: the morally strong and honest, the less strong who at least know enough to try or pretend, and then there are those who just don't get it.....

ah, nevermind - someone will point out that there is a fourth kind of person who goes around pointing out the flaws of others.

"I'm speechless" was probably the better way to put it.

[UK350GT]

nothing new man... tons of people are blowing cylinders 5 or 6 .... the plenum seems to causes these 2 cyclinders to run much more lean than the other 4....




I can confirm that. No6 is at 160psi other's are 180+ after 9k miles

[UK350GT]

http://img78photobucket.com/albums/v243/uk350gt/action=view&current=P7100001.jpg

No 6 plug is far right... fried. Don't ask about No5!

whoops.. cant establish link. if someone wants to host a pic please pm me

[neffster]

…let he without sin cast the first stone. …


WOW, the person who is credited for making that quote was JESUS CHRIST. JESUS, according to the Christian belief, was the son of GOD and was PERFECT. It’s ironic that any "sinner" would try to hide behind that line.


...ever been given to much change at a gas station or mart, did you take back?...


Many times, and I always return the extra change! The money is not mine, the person made a mistake. Don’t you like having second chances when you make a mistake? Is it fair for someone to be fired for their change drawer being $20 short?


...ever had fare free train or bus ride?...


No, I don't ride the bus or train. I drive my G35 everywhere.


...We've had or tried to get something for nothing at some time. We are talking bout corporations, not ripping off some individual. Like someone said "its nothing personal…"


Damn you for saying that. I work my ass off and I invest MY MONEY into these very companies you claim to be proud of ripping off. You are actually ripping off individual investors (ME), not the companies. You young kids who don't have to work for anything really need to wake up, the rest of you, who are morally compromised, please keep your transgressions to yourself. It allows the more ethical people to sleep better at night.

[paulb]

Since you might be looking for a new engine, have you thought about the AEBS Stroker Kit. Since you're doing FI already they decrease the compression to 8.5 and the displacement gets bumped to 4.3L.

aebs (http://www.aebsracing.com/products.pl?product=vq35stroker)
small article about it (http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/june04/aebs/)

[Riffster]

This response is not pointed at anyone in particular, but is directed to everyone who has, or is considering, any more forays into discussions of ethics, etc.,

STOP.

PERIOD.

Continue the discussion on helping the original poster - but stop the squabbling.

Thank you.

- Riff

[UK350GT]

So rather than discuss the reasons why this may have happened or discuss what's needed to make FI on the VQ35 reasonably safe, we've degenerated into a discussion of ethics.



Steve..... I did try!

BUT... Riffster moral/ethical finacial investments!!!!! lol. such a thing rarely exists. There are plenty of agencies that can show the link between big business and the exploitation of the weakest in the world. Businesses are forever closing home factories decimating local economies because it's more profitable to set up with lower wage costs in other poorer countries... ethical no, profitabe yes. Good luck to you. You and I both sleep fine.

[UK350GT]

Riffster. I've had my right of reply. I agree we should get back on track. which is what I tried to do before your response.

[Riffster]

Can't we be adults and address the problem the original poster had instead of arguing like children?

Another post like UK350GT's and the thread will be closed.

I don't want to do that because a poster has a problem and needs help. But he doesn't need this extraneous twaddle about warranties and business ethics.

If anyone wants to continue this discussion, they may do so in a PM to me or on the Feedback forum. If they continue the ethics discussion here - yes, the thread will be closed.

- Riff

[winw]

I say that you look into engine rebuild options. It may be cheaper than buying a crate engine. You may luck out with a totalled car, but that would be luck, imo.

New pistons, rods, maybe some porting and polishing and various other items could give you a somewhat bullet proof car (even with the ATI still in there http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif). Find a good mechanic in your area or a reasonable distance away, and see what can be done. Don't just take it to some hack.

I'm just saying look at your options. Either way, you're about to give your credit lines or check book a workout. Good luck.

[neffster]

What about car insurance? Is this a feasable option? Technically there was a mechanical "accident" that occurred and is there any way that this type of "accident" might be covered?

I have my doubts as I realize that this is stretching the purpose for the policy a bit, but why not give it a fair and honest shot? What do you have to lose by calling your insurance company and telling them what really happened?

Good Luck.

[chim15]

nothing new man... tons of people are blowing cylinders 5 or 6 .... the plenum seems to causes these 2 cyclinders to run much more lean than the other 4....





I can confirm that. No6 is at 160psi other's are 180+ after 9k miles





UK350GT, I assume that the 9K+ miles refers to the amount of time since the Procharger has been on, correct? That sucks, regardless. It's very disappointing to see all the F/I engine failures. Looks like N/A is the route to go, short of installing a stand alone ECM unit to handle timing and such.

[UK350GT]

uk350GT, I assume that the 9K+ miles refers to the amount of time since the Procharger has been on, correct? That sucks, regardless. It's very disappointing to see all the F/I engine failures. Looks like N/A is the route to go, short of installing a stand alone ECM unit to handle timing and such.



the s/c went on 3k miles ago. I must point out that the fried plug was standard (another story) but the No6 cylinder does appear to be a problem. I am not trying to flame the s/c, it's been a great 3k miles and the car still runs strong. Besides there hasn't been many failures as I understand it, in truth I have had issues with the engine pre s/c. Just unlucky I guess

[zimbo]

It's very disappointing to see all the F/I engine failures. Looks like N/A is the route to go, short of installing a stand alone ECM unit to handle timing and such.



The number of engine failures is indeed sobering. It's a reminder that forced induction is not a simple bolt-on, but is an ongoing modification that must be monitored and tuned on a regular basis.

At the same time, I have read of many instances of people who have had serious problems with cold-air intakes (MAF problems, CELs, damaged A/F lines, even hydrolock), serious problems with crank pulleys, serious problems with plenums, serious problems with high flow cats.

All modifications come with an associated risk. Using the same logic in the "see, it just goes to show that the VQ35 can't handle forced induction" argument, I could easily make similar conclusions--based on evidence found in this and other forums--about just about every performance mod routinely discussed around here.

To address your belief that timing retard would require a standalone ECU, all I can say is that there are several workable timing solutions already available to anyone who wants to go FI including: ECU reflash, piggyback ECU, J&S box, etc.

--Steve

[dfw_danny]

So much for the Magnuson Moss Act mantra.




I do not get this. He shows his location to be in England and the Magnusson Moss Act is a US law, not British law. Second, Infinitis are not sold in England so warranty is not available there anyway. Third, if the car is a Z car why are we even having this discussion here. Last, if it is a British Z car no where in the post does he say Nissan has denied warranty.

[Eagle1]

This is most distressing to hear. I will do some more checking, Mike, and send you a pm on what I find out before posting. I do have two observations, and please lads out there, this is not defending anyone....but I have 12,000+ miles and four track day events on my ATI and it runs like a locomotive. I did however reprogram the ECU to retard the timing, and raised the rev limiter to 7100, and very conservatively set the air fuel mix on the dyno tune, broke the engine and unit in gradually, etc. It does not take much to cause a problem with any kind of forced induction, and while it can vary as to circumstance, the cause is often from running too lean and encountering early detonation or pre-ignition. This usually occurs at wide open throttle in the higher segment of the rpm band. The exposure to early detonation is influenced by a number of other factors, such as temperature (affects density of air), altitude (same), grade of fuel (lower octane is bad of course), timing, mixture setting, etc etc. And they can act in combination with each other when one alone might not be enough to do it.
You are going to have to rebuild the engine, so some forensic analysis is going to be involved anyway. When you tear it down you will find out what is broken, and you will be much better able to determine why and how. Anything is possible, but it is not likely that this is a problem that is an Infiniti defect of any kind. Nor is it likely that the ATI unit is defective, in my lowly opinion. What is likely, or more likely, is that it was tuned incorrectly, or correctly but too aggressively such that the aforementioned elements or others acted to fry your motor.
It is also possible that during the tuning process, unless you were there when it was being done, was too aggressive, and there was a very modest but nevertheless palpable "oops" and the tuner backed off, but not before slight damage was done. You operated for a short while with a damaged motor, but it kept getting worse, and the fellow was either hoping he did not hurt the motor, or knew it was slight and with enough passage of time could point the finger elsewhere. Stuff like that happens too.

In any event, we don't really know what transpired and until you are working with limited info. I do think that for your own protection you need to have another tech look at it when it is pulled apart, to keep the current guy square with you.
And who knows, I may not be far behind you on the road to a rebuilt engine myself.

[zimbo]

I do not get this.



The original poster said nothing about being from England. He lives in Orange County, California and owns a G35 Coupe. The reason the "Magnuson Moss Act mantra" is being mentioned in this context is that some posters feel that various supercharger installers have implied that it would be hard for Infiniti to prove that a supercharger was the actual cause of something like engine damage and therefore their warranty would essentially be unaffected. However, you'd have to agree that this is a situation (assuming you read the first post) in which the MMA isn't going to help the original poster, no?

A few further observations... Seems like after an initial flurry of ATI blowups last summer/fall, we went about six months (November to May) where we had very few reports of FI-induced engine problems. I also recall someone opining that the number of incidents would rise again as soon as the weather got warm. Well, the weather is warm and I've heard of at least three engine failures in the last two weeks.

My understanding is that the ECU has three different timing maps it uses, depending on conditions such as octane level and the temperature outside. I've mentioned in another thread that I recently purchased an ODBII logger (it hasn't yet arrived) so that I can try to get some anecdotal basis for determining what timing is used at various conditions and at various RPMs.

--Steve

[UK350GT]

So much for the Magnuson Moss Act mantra.




I do not get this. He shows his location to be in England and the Magnusson Moss Act is a US law, not British law. Second, Infinitis are not sold in England so warranty is not available there anyway. Third, if the car is a Z car why are we even having this discussion here. Last, if it is a British Z car no where in the post does he say Nissan has denied warranty.



I've PM you answers to the 100% inaccuracey of your post. I don't no the forum you can use but I hope you find away to tell everyone you were in total error

[dfw_danny]

I do not get this.



The original poster said nothing about being from England. He lives in Orange County, California and owns a G35 Coupe. The reason the "Magnuson Moss Act mantra" is being mentioned in this context is that some posters feel that various supercharger installers have implied that it would be hard for Infiniti to prove that a supercharger was the actual cause of something like engine damage and therefore their warranty would essentially be unaffected. However, you'd have to agree that this is a situation (assuming you read the first post) in which the MMA isn't going to help the original poster, no?

A few further observations... Seems like after an initial flurry of ATI blowups last summer/fall, we went about six months (November to May) where we had very few reports of FI-induced engine problems. I also recall someone opining that the number of incidents would rise again as soon as the weather got warm. Well, the weather is warm and I've heard of at least three engine failures in the last two weeks.

My understanding is that the ECU has three different timing maps it uses, depending on conditions such as octane level and the temperature outside. I've mentioned in another thread that I recently purchased an ODBII logger (it hasn't yet arrived) so that I can try to get some anecdotal basis for determining what timing is used at various conditions and at various RPMs.

--Steve



Steve, I apologize I was reading the post incorrectly. In any case the MMA is there for the use IF Infiniti, not the dealer, denies warranty. As one poster pointed out until the engine is torn down and the failure found no one knows the real cause.

I posted this photo last month to show a catastrophic engine failure on a 2004 G35 Coupe that is owned by a middle aged lady with no mods at all. The point being...failures happen.

http://secure.grubbs.com/g35cred_engine.jpg

[Gilgamesh]

See, but hers is most definitely covered under the new vehicle warranty.

[winw]

A few further observations... Seems like after an initial flurry of ATI blowups last summer/fall, we went about six months (November to May) where we had very few reports of FI-induced engine problems. I also recall someone opining that the number of incidents would rise again as soon as the weather got warm. Well, the weather is warm and I've heard of at least three engine failures in the last two weeks.

My understanding is that the ECU has three different timing maps it uses, depending on conditions such as octane level and the temperature outside. I've mentioned in another thread that I recently purchased an ODBII logger (it hasn't yet arrived) so that I can try to get some anecdotal basis for determining what timing is used at various conditions and at various RPMs.

--Steve



Without adequate tuning and dynamic engine management safeguards, this is bound to happen in hotter weather. Detonation will occur in hotter weather. Timing should be pulled and fuel enrichened when the thermometer rises.

Blowing an engine can also occur at colder times for a different reason. If boost is not somehow regulated and pulled back in colder weather, then there is a risk of blowing the engine. 6psi of hot air /= 6 psi of cold air.

[timware]

I think the warranty question is moot. Nissan has seen many hosed FI'd VQs. They are not going to cover destroyed rings. They might cover a bearing problem or a head problem.. but rings and FI? They arent stupid.

Seems like a great opportunity for the stroker kit? or at least the lower compression pistons..

[Profile4]

thank you Eagle1 for the insight on the original subject of the thread. One easy way that you can determine if there was pre-detonation caused by a lean air-fuel ratio condition is to inspect your spark plugs, especially the no.6 cylinder one since that seems to have lost the most compression. first, look at the coloring of the carbon buildup. if you see that its a nice blackend color, then that is an indication of your car running rich. if it looks kinda white-ish/gray, you may have been running lean. the next thing you are gonna look for on your spark plug is to see if you have any little specks that are lighter than the rest of the plug. you'll have to very carefully inspect for these specks, as they can be very small and easy to miss. these will be a light gray color also. the speckling on a spark plug is an indication of detonation on FI motors. i may have some old plugs from my turboed car that have speckling on them, but i have no website to host, i'll have to look into it. if u plan on ripping the motor apart and doing a post-mortem autopsy, you can look to the crown of the piston and inspect to see if there is any of the speckling there also. again, the coloring of the piston should be the same as described as the spark plug. it seems to me that your piston rings are fried, and you may have even cracked the ring lances. smoke that is blue in nature sometimes indicates that there is oil seepage into the combustion chamber, usually due to the aforementioned problem. another way to lose compression is if you bent your valves and it doesnt seat properly. this usually occurs under high load, high rpm conditions, but may not likely be the cause since you did not go beyond 7100 rpms. again, this is another thing to inspect if you rip your motor apart. take a look at these things if you get a chance, and you'll most likely find your answer as to what may have caused this problem.

[BMW3toG35C]

The "MM act mantra" would certainly not be intoned for a supercharged engine where the failure was supercharger-related. Where the MM act would help would be if a dealer tried to deny warranty coverage on a supercharged engine for a demonstrably unrelated problem, like a water pump failure for example. In the bad old days (pre MM act) carmakers could void the warranty on the whole car if it was modded in any significant way. So if you installed a custom exhaust system and your radio died you were screwed. That's the kind of nonsense that MM fixed. It would be very tough for the original poster to make a case that the engine failure was unrelated to the SC installation, so he's going to have to pay for the rebuild himself, which is really what's fair under the circumstances.

[mnj123]

Thanks for all of the posts, and my apologies for the digressions into moral philosophy. To be clear - I have no intention of trying to deceive Infiniti about what happened or about the SC. I'm just trying to figure out what happened. Grubbs Infiniti has made posts stating that, based on their discussions with Infiniti engineers, this engine should be able to handle the power/boost of the SC with no problems. So the "Engine can't handle SC" argument seems weak, especially in light of the successful SC experiences of many of you. But I expect to hear this from the dealer anyway.

To answer one post - no, I saw/heard no sign of detonation, and the car continued to run strong after the oil leaking problem.

I've heard some good suggestions - maybe the plenum makes cylinders 5 or 6 too lean. Maybe the lack of timing retard was deadly. Maybe their was tuner error. I would like to have someone tear the engine apart and do a post-mortem, so that (A) maybe I can get an idea of what happened, and (B) I can determine what, exactly, needs to be fixed. (Maybe I can save the cost of a new engine and just need new pistons/rings.) Should this be done by the Infiniti dealer, or is there a better option?

I'm a little gun shy about FI now, so I may keep the engine stock after it is fixed. However, I'm also considering the Stillen SC option (if I can live with a new hood) since they offer an engine warranty. Also, the HP/torque numbers for Stillen are more impressive than the competition below 5000 RPM - where I do over 95% of my driving.

[Arco_Arena]

http://secure.grubbs.com/g35cred_engine.jpg



DANG! She didn't just blow that engine, she blew the whole front end of her car!!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Yes, I am stupid. Thanks for noticing.

[zimbo]

Also, the HP/torque numbers for Stillen are more impressive than the competition below 5000 RPM - where I do over 95% of my driving.



Best wishes in your post-mortem discovery. I do have an honest question re: the Stillen. My understanding is that ALL forced induction is based on the principle that boost only really occurs at wide open throttle. If that is the case (and that is certainly true of centrifugal superchargers), then your car is only faster than stock under spirited pedal-to-the-floor driving. But under those conditions, if you're shifting before 5000 rpms you're losing the best part of the engine.

--Steve

[winw]

Best wishes in your post-mortem discovery. I do have an honest question re: the Stillen. My understanding is that ALL forced induction is based on the principle that boost only really occurs at wide open throttle. If that is the case (and that is certainly true of centrifugal superchargers), then your car is only faster than stock under spirited pedal-to-the-floor driving. But under those conditions, if you're shifting before 5000 rpms you're losing the best part of the engine.

--Steve



I believe you will get some boost even with partial throttle. I would think this the case since the engine speed turns the compressor. With the Stillen maps, there is lower end torque. A much more impressive power curve in my opinion. If I ever did FI, it would be Stillen for the roots style setup based on my style of driving. The integrated hood looks much better than the hacked hood (at least in pictures).

[chim15]

It's very disappointing to see all the F/I engine failures. Looks like N/A is the route to go, short of installing a stand alone ECM unit to handle timing and such.



The number of engine failures is indeed sobering. It's a reminder that forced induction is not a simple bolt-on, but is an ongoing modification that must be monitored and tuned on a regular basis.

At the same time, I have read of many instances of people who have had serious problems with cold-air intakes (MAF problems, CELs, damaged A/F lines, even hydrolock), serious problems with crank pulleys, serious problems with plenums, serious problems with high flow cats.

All modifications come with an associated risk. Using the same logic in the "see, it just goes to show that the VQ35 can't handle forced induction" argument, I could easily make similar conclusions--based on evidence found in this and other forums--about just about every performance mod routinely discussed around here.

To address your belief that timing retard would require a standalone ECU, all I can say is that there are several workable timing solutions already available to anyone who wants to go FI including: ECU reflash, piggyback ECU, J&S box, etc.

--Steve



Steve,

I completely understand that there are indeed avenues that allow FI to work on a VQ35 since I've researched the issue quite a bit myself. But I should have clarified that I find it disappointing, not from a VQ35-reliability-on-FI aspect alone, but also from a manufacterers-lack-of-responsibility-and-research aspect in that there are still no true safe-out-of-the-box FI kits out there.

It really is a matter of buyer beware because most aftermarket manufacterers don't really take into account the myriad factors that should be taken into account when creating a large power boosting package like that. One would think the market would have evolved by now into something that would allow for safer methods of creating higher-than-stock power and not require every buyer to be a dyno denizen who turns his or her own wrenches and knows his or her way around the engine bay better than the manufacturers themselves.

And while I'm not saying that owners should be naive about the quest for power, an advanced degree in mechanical thermodynamics and combustion physics shouldn't be required either. There has to be a common ground at some point.

Coming from the Honda camp, I would see this kind of stuff all the time with companies like Jackson Racing the SCs that it offers. Ads extolling the power made and the boost that can be run are everywhere, but JR SCs blew up so many H22a motors that it was ridiculous. Why? In some cases the owners were idiots, but in some cases they were knowledgable tuners who were trying to be as safe as possible and still got fragged. A lot of that could be put on the fact that JR was putting out a product that wasn't tested in relation to the car makers, i.e. no input from Honda, and that didn't offer much in the way of responsible safety measures. It's sad and alarming if you ask me.

[chim15]

I do not get this.



The original poster said nothing about being from England. He lives in Orange County, California and owns a G35 Coupe. The reason the "Magnuson Moss Act mantra" is being mentioned in this context is that some posters feel that various supercharger installers have implied that it would be hard for Infiniti to prove that a supercharger was the actual cause of something like engine damage and therefore their warranty would essentially be unaffected. However, you'd have to agree that this is a situation (assuming you read the first post) in which the MMA isn't going to help the original poster, no?

A few further observations... Seems like after an initial flurry of ATI blowups last summer/fall, we went about six months (November to May) where we had very few reports of FI-induced engine problems. I also recall someone opining that the number of incidents would rise again as soon as the weather got warm. Well, the weather is warm and I've heard of at least three engine failures in the last two weeks.

My understanding is that the ECU has three different timing maps it uses, depending on conditions such as octane level and the temperature outside. I've mentioned in another thread that I recently purchased an ODBII logger (it hasn't yet arrived) so that I can try to get some anecdotal basis for determining what timing is used at various conditions and at various RPMs.

--Steve



Steve, I apologize I was reading the post incorrectly. In any case the MMA is there for the use IF Infiniti, not the dealer, denies warranty. As one poster pointed out until the engine is torn down and the failure found no one knows the real cause.

I posted this photo last month to show a catastrophic engine failure on a 2004 G35 Coupe that is owned by a middle aged lady with no mods at all. The point being...failures happen.

http://secure.grubbs.com/g35cred_engine.jpg



And this also is a very, to use a Simpsons word, cromulent issue in this discussion: who knows what kind of shape the engine would have been in at 9K if it remained stock. There are no guanratees when it comes to internal combustion engines, I guess.

[Profile4]

Boost may occur as long as there is a positive pressure in the system, not necessarily under WOT only conditions. It is true that you cannot (at least in my experience) achieve FULL boost unless your are in WOT. Naturally aspirated engines work in a negative pressure principle, basically it is a vacuum, meaning at any throttle position, the engine is "sucking" in air. if you hook up a vacuum gauge to the motor, it will at most read "0" under WOT. if you have a boost gauge on your FI car, you will notice that your car sits in vacuum (no boost), and if you pass the "0" it means there is a positive pressure in the system, hence the name forced induction. this is certainly true of turbocharged cars, but the centrifigul superchargers i have not experienced, yet. can you elaborate on this zimbo? i figured they are very similar in everyway except the method of driving the compressor, maybe this is the difference, take a ride in your car and see if you get boost at 50% throttle, maybe the backpressure from the exhaust spinning a turbo causes load earlier than in a centrifigul setup?
to the original poster-
the fastest and easiest way to check for detonation under lean conditions is to check the spark plugs, no engine disassembly required. the only way you can be sure if you will have to buy a new motor or just rebuild it is to perform the autopsy. inspect the cylinder wall for any deep scratches, nicks or worst case scenario, cracks. if there are any of those, look into buying another motor. the cheapest way to go would be to find a totalled G or Z that doesnt have substantial front end damage. you are most likely only going to be in need of the raw motor itself, which is the same for both cars. any other parts you can transplant from your stock motor.
if you happen to notice that there are only minor scratches on the cylinder wall at most, you can consider having a machine shop polish out the scratches if u do not possess the ability to do so yourself. if you only fried the piston rings and pistons, all u have to do is buy new ones and have them installed or install them yourself (aftermarket preferred, they should basically be the same price if not cheaper than buying stock ones from the dealer. even if you are gunshy, its good to have the stronger parts already in there, just in case you go thru boost withdrawal http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif). if you have alot of time on your hands and basic mechanical skills, i would suggest doing it yourself, that way you know your way around your motor and should another problem arise, you can rip your motor apart and put it back together with no problem. although it seems like a huge task in itself, after the first time you do it the next few times around are a cake-walk since there's no guess-work involved and the personal rewards alone are worth it.

[NewGCoupe]

http://secure.grubbs.com/g35cred_engine.jpg

[/QUOTE]


That picture makes me cry http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tear.gif

[winw]

http://secure.grubbs.com/g35cred_engine.jpg





That picture makes me cry http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tear.gif




[/QUOTE]
That's nothing. That looks like your typical Audi S4 turbo replacment project. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Eagle1]

WinW:
Without anyone getting excited about whether or not Sport Z Magazine did this testing correctly, here is what they published on a comparison of the performance of various supercharger units:
Sport Z Magazine’s Supercharger Shootout - dyno study results


Baseline Stillen @ 7psi Prochgr @ 7psi Vortec @ 8psi
RPM HP / Torque Hp / Torque Hp / Torque Hp / Torque RPM
6500 228 / 187 325 / 264 350 / 281 335 / 272 6500
6000 240 / 210 320 / 280 338 / 296 328 / 287 6000
5500 238 / 227 308 / 292 312 / 294 298 / 283 5500
5000 223 / 234 288 / 302 282 / 298 268 / 281 5000
4500 204 / 238 258 / 299 248 / 287 245 / 284 4500
4000 176 / 232 228 / 300 212 / 280 212 / 277 4000
3500 152 / 229 199 / 297 178 / 268 178 / 267 3500
3000 130 / 228 168 / 293 148 / 256 144 / 252 3000
2500 105 / 221 135 / 285 115 / 239 111 / 237 2500
2200 90 / 218 118 / 282 100 / 234 97 / 234 2200


Reported peak horsepower and torque values:
Baseline: 242.5 hp @ 5800 rpm 239.4 ft/lbs @ 4600 rpm
Stillen: 338.2 hp @ 6600 rpm 302.6 ft/lbs @ 4200 rpm
Prochgr: 353.7 hp @ 6600 rpm 300.5 ft/lbs @ 4800 rpm
Vortec: 344.8 hp @ 6300 rpm 298.7 ft/lbs @ 5900 rpm




This is not to assert that any unit is better/worse than another. The nitty differences are really not that important for this thread. What it shows however is that the positive displacement type blower (Eaton/Roots) produces more power at lower rpms, and then flattens. The centrifugal superchargers are really like turbos, just belt driven rather than with gases from the exhaust manifold. And I agree that with the integrated hood the Stillen unit on the car looks just fine. It is simple, and for a quick punch and low rpm perspective, it is a strong contender. On a track where as Zimbo has alluded you are up in your high rpm ranges most of the time, the centrifugal type is going to be a strong contender. (I think the Lysholm is the best of all but the suckers are too expensive and I am not aware that any is made in kit form for our motors, so it would be a totally custom arrangement).
I ran the unit at Willow Springs in 106 F degree temps and speeds to 130mph all day long. No problem. A couple of weeks later at California Speedway in 90+F temps I had it up to 140mph exiting turn 2 on the banked oval (It will be a long time before I try that again!) and did a lot of very strong accelerations. Purred like a kitty. BUT BUT BUT, I took it gradually and carefully up over the course of the sessions to get comfortable with it before letting it all "out". So, it can be done, but it is not easy, and perhaps a measure of luck is involved too. Engines wear and sometimes there are defects. They break. Once this gets figured out as to the why and how we will all learn a great deal. It has not been stated to this point, but I would like to make a big point of thanking Mike for sharing this with all of the community so that everyone may benefit from what his experience is. It is not easy to do what he is doing under these circumstances, and I really appreciate it.

[JJS]

There were several posts regarding trying to get Infiniti to pay - without them knowing the engine was modded. This is a major problem with too many people. You think it's okay to defraud Infiniti (or whoever). Who in the Hell do ya'll think is paying for fraudulent claims? We all are - that's who. If they have to pay it, we all are going to pay higher prices. When you take into account fraudulent insurance claims warranty claims etc, it becomes a fairly significant component of the purchase price of everything we buy.

You guys better hope there is not a God or Heaven or Hell if you think that is okay.

[winw]

WinW:
Without anyone getting excited about whether or not Sport Z Magazine did this testing correctly, here is what they published on a comparison of the performance of various supercharger units:
Sport Z Magazine’s Supercharger Shootout - dyno study results


Baseline Stillen @ 7psi Prochgr @ 7psi Vortec @ 8psi
RPM HP / Torque Hp / Torque Hp / Torque Hp / Torque RPM
6500 228 / 187 325 / 264 350 / 281 335 / 272 6500
6000 240 / 210 320 / 280 338 / 296 328 / 287 6000
5500 238 / 227 308 / 292 312 / 294 298 / 283 5500
5000 223 / 234 288 / 302 282 / 298 268 / 281 5000
4500 204 / 238 258 / 299 248 / 287 245 / 284 4500
4000 176 / 232 228 / 300 212 / 280 212 / 277 4000
3500 152 / 229 199 / 297 178 / 268 178 / 267 3500
3000 130 / 228 168 / 293 148 / 256 144 / 252 3000
2500 105 / 221 135 / 285 115 / 239 111 / 237 2500
2200 90 / 218 118 / 282 100 / 234 97 / 234 2200


Reported peak horsepower and torque values:
Baseline: 242.5 hp @ 5800 rpm 239.4 ft/lbs @ 4600 rpm
Stillen: 338.2 hp @ 6600 rpm 302.6 ft/lbs @ 4200 rpm
Prochgr: 353.7 hp @ 6600 rpm 300.5 ft/lbs @ 4800 rpm
Vortec: 344.8 hp @ 6300 rpm 298.7 ft/lbs @ 5900 rpm




This is not to assert that any unit is better/worse than another. The nitty differences are really not that important for this thread. What it shows however is that the positive displacement type blower (Eaton/Roots) produces more power at lower rpms, and then flattens. The centrifugal superchargers are really like turbos, just belt driven rather than with gases from the exhaust manifold. And I agree that with the integrated hood the Stillen unit on the car looks just fine. It is simple, and for a quick punch and low rpm perspective, it is a strong contender. On a track where as Zimbo has alluded you are up in your high rpm ranges most of the time, the centrifugal type is going to be a strong contender.



Yes for tracking I might prefer the power curve higher in the rpm band, but for my daily driver (and not that my wife would let me do this), I would prefer the Stillen, where it's power curver is fatter on the bottom. Granted it tapers up top, but it's still quite a punch over stock. Now I've never driven one, so I may not like it. On paper, it looks more like the power curve of my turbo Audi, kick in the pants at lower rpm, tapering off on the higher rpms. I guess I've gotten used to this sort of power curve. It makes for marvelous daily driving. Nothing like having almost instant power. I love seeing that 300 ft./lb torque in the 4,000 - 5,000 range.

[fnt]

I posted this photo last month to show a catastrophic engine failure on a 2004 G35 Coupe that is owned by a middle aged lady with no mods at all. The point being...failures happen.

http://secure.grubbs.com/g35cred_engine.jpg



I did a search and couldn't find the original post.

Sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but how much of what we see in the photo is the result of the engine failure, and how much is due to the post mortem dissection? What were the circumstances of the failure? And what does (did) Infiniti do?

[Rabbid_Racer]

http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Rabbid_Racer]

Ok first off in my opinion the supercharger is not the one to blame. We had an incident of the same hear on a naturally asperated engine were a customers car was experiancing extreme blow by on... YOu guessed it #6. Due to the ring not seating in properly. As we recomend that you switch to synthetic after the second oil change or atleast 10,000 miles. Something to be considered. Your Infiniti dealer needs to come out and tell you that inorder to deturming the cause the engine needs to be torn down, which we all know that it does. Your dealer needs to lay it out on the line and say hey depending on what we find upon cracking the block and disasemmbley of your engine this is what it may cost you in the event that warranty will not cover the damage. Because that is pretty ignorant to automatically assume that just because you have a supercharger on your vehicle that the reason it's blown is because of the supercharger. I mean how many things can go wrong on a naturally aspirated engine????? Yes in this case MAGNUS AND MOSS is in your corner. They must deturmin the cause of the damage before saying warranty will or will not cover. Remeber MANGNUS is a federal act not something that automotive dealers can twist around.

For all of you who want timing adjustment on your ATI supercharged system you need to give us a call at GRUBBS because we have been retro-ing ATI with the R4 tuner for a little while now. It's totally PC adjustable for both fuel and timing. So give me a call

JOHN
817-359-4114

[JJS]

Ok first off in my opinion the supercharger is not the one to blame. We had an incident of the same hear on a naturally asperated engine were a customers car was experiancing extreme blow by on... YOu guessed it #6. Due to the ring not seating in properly. As we recomend that you switch to synthetic after the second oil change or atleast 10,000 miles. Something to be considered. Your Infiniti dealer needs to come out and tell you that inorder to deturming the cause the engine needs to be torn down, which we all know that it does. Your dealer needs to lay it out on the line and say hey depending on what we find upon cracking the block and disasemmbley of your engine this is what it may cost you in the event that warranty will not cover the damage. Because that is pretty ignorant to automatically assume that just because you have a supercharger on your vehicle that the reason it's blown is because of the supercharger. I mean how many things can go wrong on a naturally aspirated engine????? Yes in this case MAGNUS AND MOSS is in your corner. They must deturmin the cause of the damage before saying warranty will or will not cover. Remeber MANGNUS is a federal act not something that automotive dealers can twist around.

For all of you who want timing adjustment on your ATI supercharged system you need to give us a call at GRUBBS because we have been retro-ing ATI with the R4 tuner for a little while now. It's totally PC adjustable for both fuel and timing. So give me a call

JOHN
817-359-4114



You're living in a dream world to think that the Magnusson Moss act should protect you. I've been on the G35 forum for over a year and a half and have not heard of a single incident of a G35 engine losing compression. Sure, it could happen, but if it was truly a known, common problem - surely we would have heard of it by now.

And it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that putting an aftermarket S/C on an engine not designed for it is going to stress the cylinder pressure very significanty, which most certainly is cause for Infiniti to deny this warranty claim.

[Nuckle]

http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB25&Number=67523443&page =&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1

I thought this was an interesting post from way back. Scroll to the bottom of the page and read the last post.

Go after Infiniti, if you get an engine then great, if not then punt. Good Luck!

Nuck

[Arco_Arena]

That's nothing. That looks like your typical Audi S4 turbo replacment project. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif




Tru dat.
Step 1 of any engine-related work on a VW/Audi: Remove the front bumper.
Step 2 of any turbo/exhaust work on a factory-turbo VW/Audi: Remove the engine.

http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[yacoub]

let he without sin cast the first stone.



Has absolutely nothing to do with a discussion of ethical behavior, though it is commonly used as a false excuse to silence people with solid morals on the grounds that "omg u aren't perfect so don't tell him he's wrong" which is a pathetic attempt to prevent anyone from instilling a set of values in society and maintaining a civilization instead of just kill-or-be-killed nonsense and disorder.

That quote refers to a specific example used to teach a certain sect of Jews a lesson regarding religious blame, not legal matters.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with religion, just common sense, legality, and decent moral standards, so don't use an out-of-context religious quote to excuse it.

Not to mention if you want to go there, you can theorhetically use that out-of-context excuse to try to justify anything. If someone walks up and shoots your mom and uses the same excuse you did, are you going to stand there for a moment and then go "oh well, yeah, I'm not perfect so I should prevent justice being served"? No, you're going to flip the hell out and demand justice. That's why we have a legal system and why most people have at least SOME modicum of ethics or integrity and why we try to teach our kids a set of values to live by that are in line with the legal system, lest we be no better than wild animals.

FWIW, no, I don't cheat on my taxes, and I wouldn't try to steal an engine from Infiniti if I blew mine up by modding it. I also wouldn't take a keyboard back that I destroyed with juice and try to get a refund. None of those things are proper ethical behavior for an adult in civilized society. Sorry, I have more integrity than that. Yes, I did actually recentely receive too much change at dinner with a friend and we gave it back. Does any of that matter? No, not really, because it's simply what I believe is the right thing to do. Lying, stealing, and cheating are all against the law. They're not simply what I believe are wrong - they're what our society as a whole has deemed wrongful and illegal. That is why you don't do them - if not from your own conscience and integrity, then from fear of the law.

[al503]

I also recently saw a bill (money) being blown past me in a parking lot and I didn't take it even though I'm tight for money right now and that would have paid for the lunch I was about to get, saving me money somewhere else.


you had me until this point. Giving back too much change or returning something to the rightful owner is one thing but not picking up $ just blowing around? Anytime I see something like that (owner cannot be determined) it's fair game.

[timware]

/needs repeating

He

didn't

suggest

going

for

warranty....

[yacoub]

I also recently saw a bill (money) being blown past me in a parking lot and I didn't take it even though I'm tight for money right now and that would have paid for the lunch I was about to get, saving me money somewhere else.


you had me until this point. Giving back too much change or returning something to the rightful owner is one thing but not picking up $ just blowing around? Anytime I see something like that (owner cannot be determined) it's fair game.



I'm not saying it'd be wrong to take it, I'm just sayin' I didn't. You're right, that doesn't really fit with the other examples which are actually dishonest things.

[JJS]

/needs repeating

He

didn't

suggest

going

for

warranty....





See number four on his list of questions. He DID ask if we thought it was a ligit warranty claim.

Many responses said he should take the S/C off and try to get Infiniti to pay for it. That's what some of us are replying to from an ethical stanpoint.

[mnj123]

I had an initial discussion with the service manager at my Infiniti dealer. His initial reaction was as expected. Supercharger = no warranty. I then explained to him that, although it is LIKELY that whatever engine damage exists was caused (or contributed to) by the SC, we can't be sure about what happened until we tear it down, and Infiniti does have the burden of proof to demonstrate that the damage was caused by the modification. He seemed taken aback that I knew this (thanks, guys), and said yes, we'll need to tear it down and yes, they'll have to establish what happened. But then he said he is 100% confident of what he'll find - the rings are unseated because of too much boost from the SC. I was very impressed by his ability to diagnose a compression problem over the phone. He may very well be right. Then again, it may be a self-fulfilling prophesy...

[keithg]

Usually the consumer? It's always the consumer who pays for it....the deep pockets eventually bottom out, and lo and behold, there we are. All the schmucks having to pay for some idiots new engine.

Being unethical because your perception that "everyone else is" isn't an excuse....it's really sad to see how many people think tihs is OK....

[timware]

See number four on his list of questions. He DID ask if we thought it was a ligit warranty claim.

Many responses said he should take the S/C off and try to get Infiniti to pay for it. That's what some of us are replying to from an ethical stanpoint.



and later he said


Thanks for all of the posts, and my apologies for the digressions into moral philosophy. To be clear - I have no intention of trying to deceive Infiniti about what happened or about the SC. I'm just trying to figure out what happened




And really, thats not off topic, but the morality discussion tends to drift ALOT.

[UK350GT]

errrrr, I thought non automotive disscusion was off limits. get over it and get back on track.
Is there an inhernt weakness or not. Experiences and details, not moral and religeous platitudes.

[Riffster]

errrrr, I thought non automotive disscusion was off limits. get over it and get back on track.
Is there an inhernt weakness or not. Experiences and details, not moral and religeous platitudes.



Let's stick to the technical details here and stay away from the moralizing and legal opinions.

- Riff

[Profile4]

if your piston rings are fried, than he can say that he is 100% confident that the supercharger did it and get away with it. BUT, thats not necessarily the case if this motor has a known problem to lose compression without any modifications like others have stated. but yer between a rock and a hard place since the s/c does add pressure to the cylinder, which in turn adds pressure to the pistons and can be attributed to but not directly related to piston ring failure. basically he can hide the fact that the motor has the possibility to fail under normal conditions (like that red one that looks like a stolen repo now) with the fact that yer car is s/c'd. so like i said, b4, look to the parts and look for detonation. the psi you are running would not IMO be able to cause such force as to crack the ring lances unless there was detonation. uncontrolled explosions are deadly to a motor. you can run 5 psi on an untuned motor, run lean and blow it to kingdom come far sooner than you can run 9 psi on a finely tuned motor any day. the proof ultimately will be in the pudding, have them rip the motor apart, and if his predictions are correct about the motor, ask to see the parts and look for those signs i've mentioned. if there are no signs of detonation, i'd have to say that there was engine failure related to manufacturer defect, partially exacerbated by the added pressure of a supercharger, meaning the engine was bound to fail bone stock, but the s/c just sped up failure time. in other words, your motor is in that small percentage of motors that are at the lower echelon of the engineering tolerances. it happens, assembly lines are not 100%, 100% of the time. some motors will last you 100,000 miles, some will last you 200,000 miles. good luck with your car and keep us updated as to the findings and progress (think positive) of your car.