Michael Moore blasts GM

[camber]

Michael Moore blasts GM for creating “American nightmare” (http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=695)


Michael Moore blasts GM for creating “American nightmare”

In his first interview in a year, filmmaker Michael Moore blasted GM for their announcement of plant closings in the United States, including a factory in Moore’s hometown of Flint, Michigan. “It’s weirdly ironic that it’s 19 years today, when I first thought of doing a film about General Motors,” stated Moore. “Still after all these years GM continues this unfortunate behavior,” he added. Moore believes the timing of the announcement, just before the holidays, was intended to “paralyze” the employees, so they could not “climb out of their depression” to fight back. Moore went on to blame the current GM leadership for their claimed $4 billion revenue loss. Moore questioned, “Has any GM executive in the last 30 years even bothered to take a Honda or Toyota for a drive around the block?” Referencing the fact that maybe those in charge would realize the qualities consumers are looking for, in their foreign counterparts. Moore said “arrogance and stupidity” have led the company to near economic ruin. “General Motors leadership has turned the American dream into the American nightmare!”

[AZ_G]

Who cares what Michael Moore says? Why does anyone even waste their time interviewing him? I would hope that people who listen to him will start to wake up and realize what he is.

[camber]

Well the story is apporiate because this is how Moore started his career(Critizing GM..... )

Remember Roger & Me?

[SHIFT_6speeds]

Who's Michael Moore? j/k

[CharlieDigital]

Um, I don't care whether you like Moore or not, but what he's saying is basically fact. WTF are these dumbass GM executives doing? Seriously. First of all, it's disgusting that they're firing people during the holidays. Only a real scrooge would do such a thing. Second of all, seriously, most GM vehicles are at least a generation behind in some department or another (be it styling, engine, electronics, suspension, etc.). Aside from the Corvette, I don't think that there is another GM vehicle that I would consider purchasing. And even in the case of the 'Vette, have you seen the interior? WTF is that all about? Sexy, exotic, clean exterior. PlaySkool, generic, blah, blah interior.

I can look at almost any non-American car company and pick out at least two or three worthy vehicles in their lineup. But GMs portfolio is just so terribly, terribly bad (I'm not including Subaru in GM proper).

[Madmaster]

Um, I don't care whether you like Moore or not, but what he's saying is basically fact. WTF are these dumbass GM executives doing? Seriously. First of all, it's disgusting that they're firing people during the holidays. Only a real scrooge would do such a thing. Second of all, seriously, most GM vehicles are at least a generation behind in some department or another (be it styling, engine, electronics, suspension, etc.). Aside from the Corvette, I don't think that there is another GM vehicle that I would consider purchasing. And even in the case of the 'Vette, have you seen the interior? WTF is that all about? Sexy, exotic, clean exterior. PlaySkool, generic, blah, blah interior.

I can look at almost any non-American car company and pick out at least two or three worthy vehicles in their lineup. But GMs portfolio is just so terribly, terribly bad (I'm not including Subaru in GM proper).



Subaru is part of the Toyota empire now http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif. I mostly agree with you. The interiors of their new big SUVs supposedly are very nice.

[AZ_G]

What Moore is saying is not fact. The job cuts and plant closings are taking place over the next two years so 30,000 people are not losing their job right before the holidays so that they cannot fight back as Moore put it. Secondly, where are the facts in his accusation against GM? Let me be clear that I'm not defending GM. I agree that GM's executives are basically lazy and stupid which has allowed their product line to become non-competitive with import brands. But Moore is not exactly an automotive expert with it comes to quality and design. Hence, I don't really care what he has to say. Add that to his irresposible comments about GM just wanting to abuse it's workers and I think his credibilty is gone.

[M_TYPE_X]

Camber, what's the source? Always post a source link or citation.

I've been watching Moore's conversation with the Genessee County (Flint) Progressive Democrats for the past 40 minutes on C-SPAN. He moves between logic and hysteria/blubbering.
He exists in the space "between" both. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

But the topic, yes, the topic: I've be surprised if Moore didn't go public about the recent GM slide, given his focus on GM in Roger & Me. And, of course, it's not a topic one can ignore in Michigan, least MM.

[camber]

Sorry M-Type

Thought I put in original post.

Here ya go -> Michael Moore blasts GM for creating “American nightmare” (http://www.leftlanenews.com/?p=695)

[M_TYPE_X]

Moore's comments were also in his Sunday talk in Flint.
He talks about GM execs' purported negative attitudes about working-class people, the environment, oil consumption, and ideas of customer service: "when the GM cars broke down within three months of ownership, the GM execs said: 'well, buy another one then.'"

[Ryo]

He's Mandy Moore's brother. j/k http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


Who's Michael Moore? j/k

[Irie_eyes]

LOL, the brother they hid in the attic.

[Irie_eyes]

I don't understand this defense of GM.
It reminds me of another obvious very bad idea on a global scale.

[Misfit]

I don't understand this defense of GM.
It reminds me of another obvious very bad idea on a global scale.



I feel more sorry for GM -

1) When Enron died with 85k people - it dropped a point & a bit off the entire GDP - what would 300k people do if GM dies?

2) they say service industries is a one to seven ratio - for every GM employee - 7 support / service jobs are created (or lost)

God knows - GM is as dysfunctional an organization as ever existed - with their bean counting & focus group mediocrity - but I believe that they should be trying to do what ever possible to save at least the majority of the company

[M_TYPE_X]

If you feel sorry for GM, consider a Pontiac G6 over an Altima. There's the same electronic overboosted steering and the seats are almost as good! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I'm not going to insist that anyone cross-shop a Z and a Corvette. But there's nothing wrong with having a fun import and driving an inexpensive domestic for your commute or going to dinner. Infiniti M35? Consider a Buick Lucerne.

It's unfortunate that only the ends of the GM empire will survive: the mediocrity and country-rock of Chevrolet, and the in-your-face of Cadillac Escalade. Pontiac and Buick are the ones who are gonna suffer.

I'd kill off Saturn right now.

[Irie_eyes]

GM did not too bad in crash testing.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051122/ap_on_go_ot/crash_tests_5

The G6 had the highest score for rollovers at 9% chance.
He should do a documentary on how crappy most of GM's line up is.
"Here we have a group of diehard Aztek owners..."

[SHIFT_6speeds]

GM did not too bad in crash testing.
[/url]





Their stocks?

[Irie_eyes]

one or the other

[delerium75]

It's unfortunate that only the ends of the GM empire will survive: the mediocrity and country-rock of Chevrolet, and the in-your-face of Cadillac Escalade. Pontiac and Buick are the ones who are gonna suffer.

I'd kill off Saturn right now.



You're nuts...all GM brands will continue to thrive.*




*only in Michigan

[M_TYPE_X]

It's unfortunate that only the ends of the GM empire will survive: the mediocrity and country-rock of Chevrolet, and the in-your-face of Cadillac Escalade. Pontiac and Buick are the ones who are gonna suffer.

I'd kill off Saturn right now.



You're nuts...all GM brands will continue to thrive.*




*only in Michigan



The GMInsideNews guys are complaining that GM's employee parking lots no longer give GM a 100% market share in a localized area. Apparently, a lot of people drive in Chryslers, Fords, and Toyotas!

[Not_Vin_Diesel]

I would have to agree with the article that I read on carconnection, which talks about GM's biggest problem being perception over anything else. The quality of vehicle they currently produce is pretty much on par with anything else out there, with panel gaps issues under control, initial quality studies up and interiors that are at least competitive with it's level of competition.

What would Moore prefer they do? Hold on to employees so that the company on the whole can't financially recover and everyone loses their jobs? They'll never be able to get back into a position to rehire people if they don't trim the fat right now.

[Misfit]

biggest problem being perception over anything else



I ain't quite sure where you are getting that - my neighbour has a 2 year old Envoy - whole back end went - I know four people with GM cars between 2001 & 2004 that have replaced transmissions - My Bro in Law had an Avalanche, while waiting in a line up at the gas pump - he worked his credit card into the gap in the plastic on the door where the inside handle is - and popped the plastic off.

The gap on the tail gate of all the new Envoy / Yukon etc so large that you can see the fasteners when you are behind one at a stop light.

A Yukon XL that parks right at my office building fron door has a gap on one side of the hood that an average disposable BIC type pen will fit in -

That fills in *my* perception quite nicely .....

[WhereHaveYouBeen]

I would have to agree with the article that I read on carconnection, which talks about GM's biggest problem being perception over anything else. The quality of vehicle they currently produce is pretty much on par with anything else out there, with panel gaps issues under control, initial quality studies up and interiors that are at least competitive with it's level of competition.

What would Moore prefer they do? Hold on to employees so that the company on the whole can't financially recover and everyone loses their jobs? They'll never be able to get back into a position to rehire people if they don't trim the fat right now.



You're right, and unfortunately most people don't share your line of thinking.

Personally I've seen just as many imports with serious problems as I have domestics. If you think I'm wrong then show me facts, not opinions.

MM knows people are reactionary, and he also knows that everyone feels the economy is in a huge slump and wont ever recover unless we hand out millions of manufacturing jobs. He plays on peoples' fears. Unfortunately GM can't give out jobs if it isn't making any money. It can't make any money if they sell cheap-looking auto's. And they can't upgrade their interior materials if they have to spend all their profits on salary an benefits for their workers.

Like I said in another post, and was mentioned earlier in this one, it's something like only 13% of those 30,000 workers will have to find a new job. The rest are either only a few years away from, or currently at the age of retirement. They will either just retire or be bought out. Both will enjoy cushy pension and benefits. They've been waiting for these people to reach retirement age so they can close the plants.

People need to stop reacting and thinking with their emotions, and start asking questions about the facts. GM's biggest problem is management. Not in the sense of the bean-counters and only worried about the bottom dollar, but there's too large of a beauracracy and there are no longer any true "bosses." They need more people like Lutz who can say no to people and aren't afraid to step on some toes.

[M_TYPE_X]

People need to stop reacting and thinking with their emotions, and start asking questions about the facts. GM's biggest problem is management. Not in the sense of the bean-counters and only worried about the bottom dollar, but there's too large of a beauracracy and there are no longer any true "bosses." They need more people like Lutz who can say no to people and aren't afraid to step on some toes.



Exactly. But as I just said in the other GM thread: nobody wants to be 'the bad guy' and go out and speak the truth. It won't help anyone's career, especially if they are stuck in the mindset of corporatist institutionalism and aren't launching a career with the help of ending up among the Ghosns.

[Irie_eyes]

GM isn't cutting 30000 jobs or shutting down 9 plants and then gonna hire 30000 to replace them or rebuilt 9 plants elsewhere.
Those positions and plants are eliminated.
They are downsizing and they need to. When you have a parasitic tumor you cut it off. If they are building more cars faster than they sell them compared to their competitors then they are digging a bigger hole.
It ain't just about management or marketing.
It is insanely difficult to manage if a bean counter is saying it will cost too much because the employees have become a liability moreso than an asset.
The employees should be thankful that GM is axing those who are going to retire because those guys are already set.

[M_TYPE_X]

Yes, but this is over the course of years. They need faster action. If they just continue sliding, then Buick and Pontiac WILL die.

Will Delphi Strike?

As seen on the Detroit News:


Posted: Fri. 11/25/05 08:43 AM
From: Delphi UAW Workers Unite!
City: Everywhere, USA
Subject: DelphiStrike
Comments: It appears Ricky Boy Wagoner and his but buddy Big Bad Bankruptcy Bob Miller are sweating it out like Big Time! They both know that come January us the Proud Hard-working Patriotic American Delphi UAW workers will be hitting the bricks. Wagoner is smug as a bug in a rug but he knows little of the Delphi UAW power vac that he and Big Bankruptcy Bob have created. We the Proud UAW Delphi workers are not going to $9 an hour without a fight to the death, let them go under. We the Proud UAW Delphi workers will pack our bags move over to Honda Toyota Nissan vote in the UAW and start the process all over again! We won't be pushed around nor shoved in to the ground at least not in our home town and when all is said and done we will still be around. Come January we the Proud UAW Delphi Brothers and Sisters will man the picket lines and get what is our's what is RIGHT! and that which is JUST! We will not be denied because they ain't gonna take it out of our hide! Wagoner is sweating it Big Time because he knows when you step on our tail you've done stepped on the tail of the meanest junk yard dog that the world has ever seen. We will STRIKE! because we have NO other viable option, for this reason alone we shall STRIKE! Take Delphi and GM down, our Teamster IBEW Longshoremen's union Brothers & Sisters will stand at our side offering comfort and support as we take on the Great Satan of American corporations. We will emerge VICTORIOUS! singing We Shall Overcome walking hand in hand with our heads held HIGH!

[Riffster]

The problem here isn't GM - it isn't Michael Moore, it isn't even Toyota (sorry MTX!)

It is issues like Medical Insurance, pensions, and the weight of the Baby Boom.

We are starting to see what is going to play out over the next two to three decades.

Make sure you have a good retirement plan dudes.

- Riff

[M_TYPE_X]

The problem here isn't GM - it isn't Michael Moore, it isn't even Toyota (sorry MTX!)

It is issues like Medical Insurance, pensions, and the weight of the Baby Boom.

We are starting to see what is going to play out over the next two to three decades.

Make sure you have a good retirement plan dudes.





As usual, the Problem is: Old People!
GM, Toyota, and Michael Moore are a subset of the conspiracy of the Old People.

[Misfit]

They need more people like Lutz who can say no to people and aren't afraid to step on some toes.




Very true - there was a local paper article here a few weeks ago - that made a comment of something along the line that something as simple as canning some little piece of ugly plastic on a model has to escalate all the way to Lutz - now THAT is Beuracracy

[Not_Vin_Diesel]

I ain't quite sure where you are getting that - my neighbour has a 2 year old Envoy - whole back end went - I know four people with GM cars between 2001 & 2004 that have replaced transmissions - My Bro in Law had an Avalanche, while waiting in a line up at the gas pump - he worked his credit card into the gap in the plastic on the door where the inside handle is - and popped the plastic off.

The gap on the tail gate of all the new Envoy / Yukon etc so large that you can see the fasteners when you are behind one at a stop light.

A Yukon XL that parks right at my office building fron door has a gap on one side of the hood that an average disposable BIC type pen will fit in -

That fills in *my* perception quite nicely .....




I don't want to come off as offensive (tough not to do on the intarweb,) but I'll take the results of a J.D. Powers survey over one personal anecdote about friends and neighbors. Get into any new Malibu, Impala, LaCrosse, or Cobalt. I'm not saying that the quality of plastics is top of the line, but the fit and finish of the product is right on the money. 2001-2004 is not what I'm talking about, I'm talking current product line.

[Misfit]

....I'm talking about, I'm talking current product line.



JP Power "initial quality survey"

1) Does the car have the number of cup holders you expected?
2) Did any thing fall off of the car when you drove it off the lot?
3) Is there oil leaking all over your garage with your new car?

I still say wait until there is a full automotive "generation" before calling it "quality"

When cobalt / LaCrosse etc starting hitting the used car lots with the warrantee over & still in reasonable shape - then I will agree !

[SHIFT_6speeds]

1st off..Why does anyone care what Michael Moore has to say? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Not_Vin_Diesel]

....I'm talking about, I'm talking current product line.



JP Power "initial quality survey"

1) Does the car have the number of cup holders you expected?
2) Did any thing fall off of the car when you drove it off the lot?
3) Is there oil leaking all over your garage with your new car?

I still say wait until there is a full automotive "generation" before calling it "quality"

When cobalt / LaCrosse etc starting hitting the used car lots with the warrantee over & still in reasonable shape - then I will agree !


I can live with waiting a few years and by no means am I running out to buy a GM product, but initial quality surveys go into a little more depth as does problems per 100 vehicles surveys. Have you sat in a new GM product lately? Leaps and bounds above what they had out 2 years ago.

[M_TYPE_X]

Have you sat in a new GM product lately? Leaps and bounds above what they had out 2 years ago.



They didn't impress me at the Cleveland Auto Show last year. But my dad's Pontiac G6 is pretty good. The Malibu Maxx I had as a loaner, well, I didn't care for the seating position, but it drove fine. Torque's kinda cool to have, too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Irie_eyes]

Torque's kinda cool to have, too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



LOL

[Them_Bones]

I've been in recent GM products. In fact, I drove a new (first ever) G6 for a whole week.

The cars are still about five years behind the Japanese makes. IMO, they are still working to catch up with the Koreans, who blasted by them in the last year or two.

The G6 had a pinging engine, creaking body, visible screws holding on the "gimp" molding, and weatherstripping that looked like it was cut with someone's teeth. I noticed all this within ten minutes of first getting in the car.

The ergonomics were horrible as well. Putting trip meters and maint. reminders in the radio is just stupid. Doors that won't open with the handle after they lock is stupid. The radio controls were poorly laid out. Stuff like this makes a car a pleasure or a pain to live with on a daily basis.

I will say the handling was much improved over the previous model, and the gas mileage was good. The car is an improvement for them, but they still have a lot of work to do.

I love how the G6 TV commercial says, "we designed the G6 to be one of the best cars in the world". Another one says "more power than Altima 2.5". They must think their customers are real idiots.

[M_TYPE_X]

I've been in recent GM products. In fact, I drove a new (first ever) G6 for a whole week.

The cars are still about five years behind the Japanese makes. IMO, they are still working to catch up with the Koreans, who blasted by them in the last year or two.

The G6 had a pinging engine, creaking body, visible screws holding on the "gimp" molding, and weatherstripping that looked like it was cut with someone's teeth. I noticed all this within ten minutes of first getting in the car.

The ergonomics were horrible as well. Putting trip meters and maint. reminders in the radio is just stupid. Doors that won't open with the handle after they lock is stupid. The radio controls were poorly laid out. Stuff like this makes a car a pleasure or a pain to live with on a daily basis.

I will say the handling was much improved over the previous model, and the gas mileage was good. The car is an improvement for them, but they still have a lot of work to do.

I love how the G6 TV commercial says, "we designed the G6 to be one of the best cars in the world". Another one says "more power than Altima 2.5". They must think their customers are real idiots.



It sounds like you picked up a Friday car. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I don't know where else they should have put the electronic display. It makes sense to put it on the center stack, and share it with the radio.

The big problem with the G6 is that the seatbelt doesn't go high enough. I swear that automakers only care about midgets when they build their cars. I'm just under six feet; it's not like I'm Shaq.

I much prefer the Honda ergonomics in my Integra. Back in the old days (a decade ago), the clock on most cars was separate from the radio. No "press clock" button to see the time.

[Them_Bones]

Have you been in a G6? It's not like there is a common display in the center stack. It's the one-line radio display. Others put it in the cluster, which makes sense to me if you don't have a nav screen or some other common display.

Actually, the thing I hated almost as much as the door locks was the way the guages would do a full sweep every time you turn on the car. Why? Made me think something was broken. I didn't mention that before because it's just personal preference, and has nothing to do with ergonomics or quality.

One more ergonomic gripe (almost forgot); the chime is ALWAYS going off. Many times I couldn't tell what it was trying to tell me. Turn the light switch...ding, ding, ding. WHAT??? Eventually, I noticed that it was displaying a setting change on the radio. Press the lock button, and the doors don't lock. Instead, ding, ding, ding. You have to press the button again to lock the doors.

The car is just okay, but the control systems SUCK.

[M_TYPE_X]

The car is just okay, but the control systems SUCK.



The do-everything-twice ding-ding and the gauge-sweep are kinda funky. The rental Malibu Maxx had the former but not the later 'feature.'

I drive my dad's leased G6 from time to time. What's right about it is more noticeable than what's wrong with it. The only midsize I can recall driving within the past few years that has felt instantly "right" was the Accord (not terribly exciting, but easy to point and go) and perhaps the G35. The Altima shares several weaknesses with the G6: interior quality and overly-light steering.

[Irie_eyes]

he just called your dad an idiot http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

he just called your dad an idiot http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



That's okay, he lives in Ohio and can't stand the Michigan automaking kowality.

[joeB]

Any rattles yet in your Dads G6? Whats wrong with the
interior? Not soft touch plastics?

[Madmaster]

Any rattles yet in your Dads G6? Whats wrong with the
interior? Not soft touch plastics?



I drove a 2002 Grand Prix recently, was alright, extremely cheap inside but decent acceleration with the 3.8 liter. My friend also has a supercharged 40th anniversary edition... the transmission died at 55,000 miles lol. Not that this really compares to the G6 quality wise I suppose, just my recent and only pontiac experience, other than a "Pontiac" Vibe.

I was in a brand new GMC sierra and the captain chair armrests don't stop at a straight angle, they just drop all the way down, ugh. Professional grade my ass. Same with a friend's silverado that couldn't spend a few weeks straight without visiting the shop.

[WhereHaveYouBeen]

Doors that won't open with the handle after they lock is stupid.



Doors aren't supposed to open when they're locked.


The radio controls were poorly laid out. Stuff like this makes a car a pleasure or a pain to live with on a daily basis.

I will say the handling was much improved over the previous model, and the gas mileage was good. The car is an improvement for them, but they still have a lot of work to do.

I love how the G6 TV commercial says, "we designed the G6 to be one of the best cars in the world". Another one says "more power than Altima 2.5". They must think their customers are real idiots.



The problem is you're looking for these problems. Everyone does it. If they hate foreign cars (german excluded) they work very hard to pick on it, and vice versa for domestics. I see problems in all cheap cars. They're cheap. You can't buy a cavalier and expect Maybach-esque build quality. You get what you pay for. If you look at the new impala and malibu, you'll at least agree that they're improving. Though, they have made improvements, they could have been a lot better if they wanted them to. They're just not trying hard enough, and that goes for all aspects of their company.

As for the "more power than altima 2.5," all manufacturers do that. GM is just not smart enough to put it in small print on the bottom of the screen. Like the new grand cherokee commercial. "Accelerates faster than BMW!" Right, the small print reads 330xi automatic, and thats only true when you get the hemi option in the cherokee.

[Them_Bones]

Doors that won't open with the handle after they lock is stupid.



Doors aren't supposed to open when they're locked.


The radio controls were poorly laid out. Stuff like this makes a car a pleasure or a pain to live with on a daily basis.

I will say the handling was much improved over the previous model, and the gas mileage was good. The car is an improvement for them, but they still have a lot of work to do.

I love how the G6 TV commercial says, "we designed the G6 to be one of the best cars in the world". Another one says "more power than Altima 2.5". They must think their customers are real idiots.



The problem is you're looking for these problems. Everyone does it. If they hate foreign cars (german excluded) they work very hard to pick on it, and vice versa for domestics. I see problems in all cheap cars. They're cheap. You can't buy a cavalier and expect Maybach-esque build quality. You get what you pay for. If you look at the new impala and malibu, you'll at least agree that they're improving. Though, they have made improvements, they could have been a lot better if they wanted them to. They're just not trying hard enough, and that goes for all aspects of their company.

As for the "more power than altima 2.5," all manufacturers do that. GM is just not smart enough to put it in small print on the bottom of the screen. Like the new grand cherokee commercial. "Accelerates faster than BMW!" Right, the small print reads 330xi automatic, and thats only true when you get the hemi option in the cherokee.





I didn't call anyone an idiot. I said GM thinks their customers are idiots.

With the inside handle, goofus. All of my cars, domestic or import, allow this. I feel safer being able to open my door quickly even if locked.

I'm not looking for these problems. I drive both domestics and imports. (Actually, that doesn't mean anything any more. Honda would be the domestic, and GM would be the import.) Ford gets some things right on some models, and other things right on other models. They can't seem to get everything right on one model. Haven't been around Chrysler too much lately, so can't comment on them. GM just seems to get so many things wrong that it overshadows what is good.

I love the Corvette, and look forward to testing the Solstice. I am not a GM biggot. I simply want a car that does not work against me when I use it, is good quality and performance-wise for the price.

GM has made headway with the big things. Now, if they start to correct the small things, I think they will win over the average buyer. They will always have the brand-loyalists.

[M_TYPE_X]

Any rattles yet in your Dads G6? Whats wrong with the
interior? Not soft touch plastics?



I don't much like the interior materials, but I have that issue on almost all new cars. I prefer the plood or whatever it is in my third-gen Integra.

No rattles. He's had the car for a few months. My brother drives it around town and likes having a V6. My cousin is the same way; my aunt has a red 2002 Grand Am coupe.

[Not_Vin_Diesel]

I always find it tough to criticize a car with which your experience is based on one you've rented. I beat on rental cars like they owe me money and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

As far as the locked door not unlocking and opening when you pull the handle from the inside, my Altima doesn't do that either.

Not only do car companies claim superiority in areas that don't line up (comparing a V6 engine with the power of a 4-cylinder,) they often claim their innovations as being new. Lexus is notorious for this. They made a big deal out of having intelligent key, when Mercedes had used one for years. They made a big deal out of having back-up camera's when the Q had one for a couple years. "Hey we're Lexus - now with four tires made of (dun, dun, dun) RUBBER!!!! ("Oh my gawsh, Henry, let's get a Leck-sus!") If you aren't the first to the party with the technology, don't toot your horn and act like you are.

[WhereHaveYouBeen]

Not only do car companies claim superiority in areas that don't line up (comparing a V6 engine with the power of a 4-cylinder,) they often claim their innovations as being new. Lexus is notorious for this. They made a big deal out of having intelligent key, when Mercedes had used one for years. They made a big deal out of having back-up camera's when the Q had one for a couple years. "Hey we're Lexus - now with four tires made of (dun, dun, dun) RUBBER!!!! ("Oh my gawsh, Henry, let's get a Leck-sus!") If you aren't the first to the party with the technology, don't toot your horn and act like you are.




OMG Thank you so much for mentioning that! I thought I was the only one who noticed that. Nobody ever believes me. Lexus gets a lot of their stuff from Benz and Benz is more than happy to share its innovations. Their line of thinking is if it increases safety on the road then everyone should be able to have it. They patent it andcash in on its use by other manufacturers. Fvcking lexus! They piss me off so much!

[Them_Bones]

I always find it tough to criticize a car with which your experience is based on one you've rented. I beat on rental cars like they owe me money and I'm sure I'm not the only one.





I would agree with you if the car had more than a couple thousand miles on it when I got it. Heck, I put almost 1K on it myself in one week. It was a new car with no blemishes or apparent abuse.

I'll give credit where credit is due, but there are still too many problems and poor design elements. NO modern engine should ping like that one did - through three tanks of gas, so it wasn't the gas.

I hate the way some new cars are plumbing the whole electrical system through the radio. WHY??? Take out the radio in some GMs, and you loose trip meters, chimes including headlight and door warnings, etc. Just dumb.

I did like the improved interior. The switches in the steering wheel fit nicely. The center stack was pretty tight.

They wanted to rent me a "Classic" before I saw and demanded the G6. That car is a true POS. It was supposed to be a Camry beater when it came out. I've rented several of them. All bad, very bad.

Like I said, they've made strides in the right direction, but they are still behind the times. I hope they go into bankruptcy so they are forced to reorganize. Kill off the unions, and move plants back to the US might be a couple goals. They NEED to succeed. Otherwise, Nissan and others will continue to sink to the level of quality that we're used to here in the US.

[camber]

move plants back to the US might be a couple goals.



That would be dumb. GM's most effiecient plants and best quality plants are in Canda. If anything they should not be getting rid of any Canadian production capacity. They should kill off the dead wood American stuff and move it to Canada.

I think the average cost per vehicle for health and benefits on a CAW woker is $150. A car produced on the US UAW worker is more like $1500.

However, I think the report that GM would be getting rid of Canadian jobs is is just a bargaining chip so they get can get more money from the Ontario provincial goverment to do plant upgrades(GM is already in talks with the government on how the can keep jobs at that plant). This bargaining is not going on for any of the American layoffs....

Which shows the interest of GM and the state governments willingness/ability to keep those jobs.

[WhereHaveYouBeen]

I think the average cost per vehicle for health and benefits on a CAW woker is $150. A car produced on the US UAW worker is more like $1500.




Try $3000.

[M_TYPE_X]

However, I think the report that GM would be getting rid of Canadian jobs is just a bargaining chip so they get can get more money from the Ontario provincial goverment to do plant upgrades(GM is already in talks with the government on how the can keep jobs at that plant). This bargaining is not going on for any of the American layoffs....



Ah. I like the new strategery. Hose Canada! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

I hate the way some new cars are plumbing the whole electrical system through the radio. WHY??? Take out the radio in some GMs, and you loose trip meters, chimes including headlight and door warnings, etc. Just dumb.



I never thought of that. You're right.
<= never swapped out a stock stereo unit before

It's not dumb if it forces people to get their parts back through GM ... parts which may or may not be around when the parts need replacement, given how volatile and shaky the GM-supplier relations are.

[Not_Vin_Diesel]

I would agree with you if the car had more than a couple thousand miles on it when I got it. Heck, I put almost 1K on it myself in one week. It was a new car with no blemishes or apparent abuse.

I'll give credit where credit is due, but there are still too many problems and poor design elements. NO modern engine should ping like that one did - through three tanks of gas, so it wasn't the gas.

I hate the way some new cars are plumbing the whole electrical system through the radio. WHY??? Take out the radio in some GMs, and you loose trip meters, chimes including headlight and door warnings, etc. Just dumb.

I did like the improved interior. The switches in the steering wheel fit nicely. The center stack was pretty tight.

They wanted to rent me a "Classic" before I saw and demanded the G6. That car is a true POS. It was supposed to be a Camry beater when it came out. I've rented several of them. All bad, very bad.

Like I said, they've made strides in the right direction, but they are still behind the times. I hope they go into bankruptcy so they are forced to reorganize. Kill off the unions, and move plants back to the US might be a couple goals. They NEED to succeed. Otherwise, Nissan and others will continue to sink to the level of quality that we're used to here in the US.


Point made. At least we agree that they're moving forward, albeit still behind the foreign competition. I don't know if going into bankruptcy is required, but they do need to turn it around. I'd much rather have the quality, reliability and technology arguments to be more worthwhile as opposed to the current situation.