335i Dyno 350hp and 360 lb/ft!

[camber]

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/


2007 BMW 335i Dynamometer Run


By Jason Cammisa


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(http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/photo_01.html)The 2007 BMW 335i will be in showrooms next month, and is the first application of BMW’s new twin-turbocharged 3.0-liter inline-six. This is a big deal because BMW has had only two short affairs with turbocharged gasoline production cars--the 2002 Turbo in the mid-70s, and the E23 745i in the early 80s--and neither was sold in the U.S. As the saying goes, third time’s the charm.

BMW fit this new engine with two small-displacement turbochargers--instead of one larger unit--in an effort to reduce lag. And for the most part, it worked. Behind the wheel, you’re vaguely aware that this engine doesn’t have quite as crisp a throttle response as its normally-aspirated siblings do. But you don’t care--you’re too busy trying to hold on for dear life.

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_s+2007_BMW_335i+hood_up.jpg http://www.automobilemag.com/images_nd/viewlarger.gif
(http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/photo_02.html)This is one hell of a motor, pulling smoothly and strongly from idle all the way to its 7000-rpm fuel cutoff. There’s no boost gauge, and since you barely hear the turbos spooling, it’s easy to forget they’re even there. Once you’ve adjusted to the slight lag in power delivery following big, sudden throttle openings, all you notice is the sound of that silky in-line six.

BMW says that this engine makes 300 horsepower and 300 lb-ft of torque. We were so impressed with its power that we couldn’t help wonder if that was a conservative rating. Wasting no time, I swiped the keys and drove to a local dyno shop to find out.

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_s+2007_BMW_335i+rear_badge.jpg http://www.automobilemag.com/images_nd/viewlarger.gif
(http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/photo_03.html)We used a DynoJet chassis dyno, which measures an engine’s power output at a vehicle’s rear wheels. Because of frictional driveline losses, this number is always lower--generally by fifteen to twenty percent--than the quoted power output from the manufacturer, which is measured at the engine itself.

Here’s what we found:

The non-turbocharged 330i, rated by BMW at 255 hp and 220 lb-ft of torque, puts about 200 hp and 180 lb-ft to the rear wheels. That’s roughly a twenty-percent loss. Since they have similar drivelines, you’d expect the 335i to put down 235 hp and 250 lb-ft.

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_s+2007_BMW_335i+rear_corner_dyno.jpg http://www.automobilemag.com/images_nd/viewlarger.gif
(http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/photo_04.html)But it didn’t. It put down a whole lot more: 275 hp and 300 lb-ft. A few quick taps on our trusty calculator shows that this engine is likely putting out closer to 350 hp and 360 lb-ft of torque.

Technical editor Don Sherman’s ears perked up at all this number crunching. With all that power, he wondered, is the 335i faster than the outgoing 333-hp E46 M3? We waved goodbye to the shiny new coupe’s rear tires, and sent him to find out.

Don coaxed the 335i to 60 mph in 5.1 seconds--only 0.3 seconds slower than the M3. The 335i covered the quarter-mile in 13.6 seconds @ 104 mph--again, only 0.2 seconds and 1 mph behind the M3.

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_s+2007_BMW_335i+rear_view.jpg http://www.automobilemag.com/images_nd/viewlarger.gif
(http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/photo_05.html)So in an all-out drag race, the 335i comes close, but can’t quite match the M3’s blistering acceleration. Those numbers, though, only tell half the story. Have a look at the top-gear acceleration figures. In sixth gear, the M3 needs 14.7 seconds to get from 30 to 70 mph – but the 335i does it in only 12.5.

That, my friends, is the beauty of this engine. At full bore, it’s as fast as an M3. But at moderate engine speeds, it’s even faster. What a great way to keep us all interested until the next M3 comes along.

Test - M3 - 335i
0-60 - 4.8 - 5.1
0-100 - 11.5 - 12.7
0-110 - 14.5 - 15.6
0-120 - N/A - 18.6
0-140 - N/A - 28.2
1/4 mile - 13.4@105 - 13.6@104
peak g - 0.7 - 0.68
30-70 (6th) - 14.7 - 12.5
30-70 (3rd) - N/A - 6.5

70-0 - 162 - 150
Peak g - 1.12 - 1.12

Weight - 3480 - 3560
%F/R - 50.6/49.4 - 51.1/48.9
Redline - 8000 - 7000
Power - 333 - 300
Torque - 202 - 300

Tires 255/40 ZR-18 255/35 WR-18

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_z+2007_bmw_335i+dyno_chart_2.jpg


Ultimately, not as fast as the outgoing M3 but probably a nicer street ride. A little suprised with the power its putting down that it couldn't accelerate faster from a stand still.

Pretty skeptical how much more power you can get out of stock setup with just a reflash. Small turbos and DI setups have always been efficient. Therefore, usually no extra power to be found...

[Dave562]

Pretty skeptical how much more power you can get out of stock setup with just a reflash. Small turbos and DI setups have always been efficient. Therefore, usually no extra power to be found...

I agree that you might not get very much out of a reflash, but you might see some decent gains with a boost controller and some careful tuning to make sure that the A/F ratios stay good. Isn't a 7000RPM fuel cut-off a little low for an inline six? I thought those motors were pretty comfortable spinning to ~8000. What is the displacement on it? 3.0? 3.2?

[Afty]

I think the high rwhp is coming from the new SAE hp standards, not underrating. The rwhp number nowadays is going to be much closer to the number at the crank because of the strict SAE testing standards. We're just not used to seeing them this close because engines were previously being overrated.

For comparison, the IS350 is rated at 306 crank hp, and it puts down 260-270 rwhp on the dyno, and it's an automatic. It's not a stretch to think a hypothetical IS350 manual would put down 280 rwhp, which would put it right in line with this 335i's 275 rwhp.

[camber]

IIsn't a 7000RPM fuel cut-off a little low for an inline six? I thought those motors were pretty comfortable spinning to ~8000. What is the displacement on it? 3.0? 3.2?

The new NA 3.0L redline IIRC is 7000 rpm.

The M3 NA 3.2L I6 has a 8000 rpm redline.

This engine is a 3.0L as well. However, the turbos look like the start tailing off after 5800 rpm. I'm not sure that increasing the redline would make much sense with these small stock turbos.

The most impressive thing about this engine is the power delivery and not so much peak power.

I'm still not sure how much you can modify the DI fuel system. I have not seen anyone doing it yet for other gasoline DI vehicles and this could severly limit power mods.

[ZYAL8R808]

Sounds to me like BMW slipped those guys a ringer for their testing. It's no secret that manufacturers will do that to get good reviews before a product is released.

Either that or Afty is right about the new SAE standards.

[WhereHaveYouBeen]

So that means it will run a 12.9 with a proper driver? Nice!

[al503]

I posted a link to a vid in g35 forum where it shows the car accelerating from a stand still. The left rear was laying rubber down and the right rear wasn't. I think that's the difference in acceleration. This car with a proper lsd will be tough to beat.

Whether this was a ringer or not, there really is no downside.
1. Ringer: shows that you can get a serious dose of extra power (compared to what it should be crank v. whp) with a chip? Change out chip, put an aftermarket exhaust and you'll get more.
2. Not a ringer: if it wasn't a ringer, there is probably a little room left to get even more power with the above as the fuel delivery will undoubtedly have a little more headroom left.

LSD, chip and exhaust and there will be very few cars that can keep up it and all for less than $50K.

[ZYAL8R808]

Those acceleration numbers really don't impress me that much. A stock 350Z 6-Speed for $26-$27,000 isn't much slower. 0-60 in 5.4-5.6 and 1/4 mile in 13.9-14.2. Throw in $10,000 and you got a twin turbo Z that will lay down 400 RWHP and blow through the 1/4 mile in the high 12 second range. And you still got money to spare before you reach the going price for a 335i.

I'm not bashing the Bimmer but just trying to keep things in perspective.

[WhereHaveYouBeen]

Those acceleration numbers really don't impress me that much. A stock 350Z 6-Speed for $26-$27,000 isn't much slower. 0-60 in 5.4-5.6 and 1/4 mile in 13.9-14.2. Throw in $10,000 and you got a twin turbo Z that will lay down 400 RWHP and blow through the 1/4 mile in the high 12 second range. And you still got money to spare before you reach the going price for a 335i.

I'm not bashing the Bimmer but just trying to keep things in perspective.

"Good evening! If you're just joining us, it's four fifteen in the A-M, and you're watching Perspectives."

That does put it in perspective. However, the Bimmer does have four seats, and you can tell women "I drive a BMW."

Hey, I'm just saying what's important to bimmer owners. Let's face it, 90% of women are like that.

[ZYAL8R808]

"Good evening! If you're just joining us, it's four fifteen in the A-M, and you're watching Perspectives."

That does put it in perspective. However, the Bimmer does have four seats, and you can tell women "I drive a BMW."

Hey, I'm just saying what's important to bimmer owners. Let's face it, 90% of women are like that.

Very true. However, if you need a back seat get a G35 Coupe, spend the $10,000 for the same mods and you still come out cheaper than a 335i. And, at least the G Coupe looks like a coupe and not a sedan that got chopped up and shortened for the sake of making a coupe.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D

[al503]

Those acceleration numbers really don't impress me that much. A stock 350Z 6-Speed for $26-$27,000 isn't much slower. 0-60 in 5.4-5.6 and 1/4 mile in 13.9-14.2. Throw in $10,000 and you got a twin turbo Z that will lay down 400 RWHP and blow through the 1/4 mile in the high 12 second range. And you still got money to spare before you reach the going price for a 335i.

I'm not bashing the Bimmer but just trying to keep things in perspective.
Why stop there? Let's get a civic, put in $10K and it'll blow both the 350 and the 335 away.

Besides, the only way I'd go FI with a VQ is with a built engine. TT, forged internals, fuel delivery, proper gauges, multiple tunings, etc. You blow the front/rear weight ratio, which hurts handling, braking, etc. BUT, you'd still have one fast Nissan (at least in a straight line.)

[camber]

No cats in the up or down pipe and the size of pipes seem more then adequate for the turbo size. Little gain in exhaust....

If we look at other DI gasoline turbo engines there will be little or no headroom in the stock fuel system to gain power.

However, maybe this car with be the exception to rule and we will see big power gains for cheap. Although, I have never seen cheap and easy extra power from the BMW aftermarket.

Turbo swap would be necessary for significant power but you would probably need more fuel. I still haven't found anyone that has pieced together a upgraded DI gasoline system for any production based gasoline system. Until, that happens you'll be very limited in what you can do for DI gasoline engine.

[Sorin]

You blow the front/rear weight ratio, which hurts handling, braking, etc. BUT, you'd still have one fast Nissan (at least in a straight line.)
A couple of 15s in the trunk, problem solved!

:party42:

[al503]

No cats in the up or down pipe and the size of pipes seem more then adequate for the turbo size. Little gain in exhaust....
How do you know how big the stock pipes are? Care to share your source or are you just conjecturing?

If we look at other DI gasoline turbo engines there will be little or no headroom in the stock fuel system to gain power.

However, maybe this car with be the exception to rule and we will see big power gains for cheap. Although, I have never seen cheap and easy extra power from the BMW aftermarket.
That's because the BMW aftermarket was much like the G/Z's. N/A bolt ons, which we all know gets you very little bang for the buck. FI introduces a whole new ballgame.

Turbo swap would be necessary for significant power but you would probably need more fuel. I still haven't found anyone that has pieced together a upgraded DI gasoline system for any production based gasoline system. Until, that happens you'll be very limited in what you can do for DI gasoline engine.
I think it already has significant power. I would guess that the upper limit would be somewhere around 400-425 at the crank eventually. For those wanting an incredibly fast car that can take a corner with the best, that should be more than adequate. For those looking for more than that, they will probably be looking at a different ride.

[camber]

How do you know how big the stock pipes are? Care to share your source or are you just conjecturing?

Pictures?

It's pretty easy to tell what general size they are in comparison to the turbo size. For that matter if really wanted too or cared enough I could probably estimate a close size of the up and down pipes just from using pictures from the net.

That's because the BMW aftermarket was much like the G/Z's. N/A bolt ons, which we all know gets you very little bang for the buck. FI introduces a whole new ballgame.

:rolleyes: Sure... Except you pay more for the same mod that would be cheaper on another engine or chassis . Current and previous 3 series greatly outsells the G35. Yet aftermarket performance parts and tuning tend to be more expensive for the 3 series compared to the G.

I think it already has significant power. I would guess that the upper limit would be somewhere around 400-425 at the crank eventually. For those wanting an incredibly fast car that can take a corner with the best, that should be more than adequate. For those looking for more than that, they will probably be looking at a different ride.

+400HP(even at the crank never mind wheels) on those tiny stock turbos is very optimistic. Especially, after looking at this dyno graph.

This is a response setup.

I don't know why people would think 335i will be a good a handler as the M3. Current generation M3 weighs 100 lbs less then the 335i and has better weight distribution. The next M3 will have an even better weight distribution due to V8 configuration but we can only guess about weight.

While the 335i is nice. I'm not expecting it to be the cheap BMW M3 killer that people seem to be making it out to be. BMW is intelligent enough to know how to keep the performance different between the two cars. Especially, to justify the added cost of the M3.

[al503]

Pictures?

It's pretty easy to tell what general size they are in comparison to the turbo size. For that matter if really wanted too or cared enough I could probably estimate a close size of the up and down pipes just from using pictures from the net. care to share a link with the rest of us? I haven't seen any pics that would show the size of the turbos or the exhaust plumbing.

+400HP(even at the crank never mind wheels) on those tiny stock turbos is very optimistic. Especially, after looking at this dyno graph.

This is a response setup. Only time will tell. The bi-turbo audi guys (with their small turbos) are making very good power.

I don't know why people would think 335i will be a good a handler as the M3. Current generation M3 weighs 100 lbs less then the 335i and has better weight distribution. The next M3 will have an even better weight distribution due to V8 configuration but we can only guess about weight. First of all, the e46 M3 isn't that great a handler out of the box. The best M3 in the handling dept. was the previous e36. The current is a step down from what it was. Second, there's only about a 1% difference between the f/r weight ratios. Third, how is adding a heavier v8 going to help the weight distribution?

While the 335i is nice. I'm not expecting it to be the cheap BMW M3 killer that people seem to be making it out to be. BMW is intelligent enough to know how to keep the performance different between the two cars. Especially, to justify the added cost of the M3. Agree with you here. If the 335 tested here was a good indication, I bet the new M3 will be closer to 400 bhp at the wheels instead of the crank.

[camber]

care to share a link with the rest of us? I haven't seen any pics that would show the size of the turbos or the exhaust plumbing.

Search. I posted the BMW press pictures of the engine about 2-3 months ago. It has multi angle shots of a full dress engine outside of the car on a white background.


Only time will tell. The bi-turbo audi guys (with their small turbos) are making very good power.
There is a bi turbo Audi engine running FSI?(direct injection)
This thread actually made me take a look at some of the mods available for AUDI DI gasoline engines. I looked at mainly the APR website (http://www.goapr.com/Audi/products/index.html). With new EM on 93 octane MAP only getting extra 30 HP at the crank for the 2.0T FSI. The next set up and only real power adder after that was a new exhaust manifold and turbo. It add a 100HP at the crank for $4300 + price of there full exhaust + price of their intake. However, I was suprised that they could add a bigger turbo on stock fuel system. Looks like a KKK K04 but I haven't seen anything bigger yet.

First of all, the e46 M3 isn't that great a handler out of the box. The best M3 in the handling dept. was the previous e36. The current is a step down from what it was. Second, there's only about a 1% difference between the f/r weight ratios. Third, how is adding a heavier v8 going to help the weight distribution?
I'm sure I could start a nice flame war with your quote on a BMW forum between e46 and e36 camps.
V8?? I thought it would be obvious. A V8 is about 2/3s the length of an I6. We don't know what the weight of the new M3 V8. However, the new BMW M V10s weigh less then the outgoing BMW M V8 and standard V8.

[al503]

Search. I posted the BMW press pictures of the engine about 2-3 months ago. It has multi angle shots of a full dress engine outside of the car on a white background. Gee, thanks. I'll try the search.



There is a bi turbo Audi engine running FSI?(direct injection)
This thread actually made me take a look at some of the mods available for AUDI DI gasoline engines. I looked at mainly the APR website (http://www.goapr.com/Audi/products/index.html). With new EM on 93 octane MAP only getting extra 30 HP at the crank for the 2.0T FSI. The next set up and only real power adder after that was a new exhaust manifold and turbo. It add a 100HP at the crank for $4300 + price of there full exhaust + price of their intake. However, I was suprised that they could add a bigger turbo on stock fuel system. Looks like a KKK K04 but I haven't seen anything bigger yet. I was referring to the 2.7 biturbos in the older S4's and the 6's. Besides, none of us know what the direct injection is capable of in the new 3. Your claim that it can't handle more capacity is all conjecture.

I'm sure I could start a nice flame war with your quote on a BMW forum between e46 and e36 camps. Feel free to quote me. I stand by this one. The first tests on the e46 all mentioned the excessive (at least for BMW) understeer. When dinan introduced his suspension package, I remember the testers saying that it would run rings around the stock suspension. The e36 also won the world's best handling car despite being at a severe (in some cases) hp disadvantage to the exotics that were also tested. Given the choice of a stock e36 and a stock e46 with the same power, I would wager those in the know would take the e36.

V8?? I thought it would be obvious. A V8 is about 2/3s the length of an I6. We don't know what the weight of the new M3 V8. However, the new BMW M V10s weigh less then the outgoing BMW M V8 and standard V8. Unless they use lightweight materials like magnesium, I don't see a 4.0 v8 being lighter than a 3.2 i6. It may not weigh much more but I don't think it will weigh any less.

[SukairainKupe]

Poor Lexus IS350 - owned again~

Let's hope the VQ37DE engine can come close to the Bimmer psycho motor when it comes out next year.

[camber]

I was referring to the 2.7 biturbos in the older S4's and the 6's. Besides, none of us know what the direct injection is capable of in the new 3. Your claim that it can't handle more capacity is all conjecture.

Not really conjecture all.... BMW DI system is not a system they designed or make and it being used on other production vehicles. The system is pretty much designed all by Siemens(injectors) and Bosch(pretty much the rest of the fuel system). All the aftermarket people that I have seen to try to tune these systems have has little sucess getting significant extra power.

Feel free to quote me. I stand by this one. The first tests on the e46 all mentioned the excessive (at least for BMW) understeer. When dinan introduced his suspension package, I remember the testers saying that it would run rings around the stock suspension. The e36 also won the world's best handling car despite being at a severe (in some cases) hp disadvantage to the exotics that were also tested. Given the choice of a stock e36 and a stock e46 with the same power, I would wager those in the know would take the e36.

Ummm... you all over the map. IIRC correctly the American E46 BMW has different suspension tuning to the rest of the world. Something about American lawyers thinking that a car that can oversteer is a potential danger.

What is this world's best handling car award?

I've never actually heard of that before.

I have a hard time believing that E36 was ranked better in handling when compared to the Lotus Elise. The Elise came out in 1995 the same year as the E36 M3.

As far as people "in the know" are concerned I wonder why most race teams that are competing in production based racing are using the E46 chassis?

Unless they use lightweight materials like magnesium, I don't see a 4.0 v8 being lighter than a 3.2 i6. It may not weigh much more but I don't think it will weigh any less.

BMW is already using magnesium in the standard I6. I believe that the new M V8 will further the use of lightweight alloys. V configuation engines are much nicer for making a car that handles well. They are much shorter and compact and have a relatively low CG when compared to inline engines..

[al503]

Not really conjecture all.... BMW DI system is not a system they designed or make and it being used on other production vehicles. The system is pretty much designed all by Siemens(injectors) and Bosch(pretty much the rest of the fuel system). All the aftermarket people that I have seen to try to tune these systems have has little sucess getting significant extra power.

Fair enough. Time will tell though and I'm anxious to see what the tuners can do with it.

Ummm... you all over the map. IIRC correctly the American E46 BMW has different suspension tuning to the rest of the world. Something about American lawyers thinking that a car that can oversteer is a potential danger. I don't see how I'm all over the map. If I lived in Europe, perhaps the 'euro tuned' (if there is such a thing) would be more applicable. Since I live in the states, thats what matters to me. Sorry for not being clearer if I wasn't.

What is this world's best handling car award? One of the car rags (C&D or R&T) had a couple of issues where they tested FWD and RWD cars to find out which was the best handling car. The Prelude SH won the FWD contest and the e36 M3 took on all comers to win the RWD contest. It was a while back.

As far as people "in the know" are concerned I wonder why most race teams that are competing in production based racing are using the E46 chassis? C'mon. Those teams are usually sponsored by the factory. Why would BMW give them/support teams with a model they don't sell anymore? 'Damn. That e36 won again. Where can I get one? You can't, eh?'

BMW is already using magnesium in the standard I6. I believe that the new M V8 will further the use of lightweight alloys. V configuation engines are much nicer for making a car that handles well. They are much shorter and compact and have a relatively low CG when compared to inline engines.. As I stated before, if they use those lighter weight materials then it's a whole new story. However, if the fact that the 335 doesn't have the magnesium says anything, there may be reliability/strength issues with materials like magnesium. Perhaps they are strong enough for your run of the mill 3 series sedan but may not be so with those running boost or an engine destined to be very high strung as the one in the new M will be.

[camber]

Well actually most of those teams aren't sponsored by BMW or "factory" teams.

Do you watch the Speed touring cars/GT series?

For the first year of E46 production teams actually ran E36 and E46 side by side. That was until more parts became available and R&D was done. then most teams ended choosing the E46.

Same thing for a multitude of series in the rest of the world.

Anyways, getting back on topic.

I haven't seen any DI system tuned for really big power. The parts available right now limit what you can do. In the coming years that might change. However, in the near future there is nothing in the horizon.