2010 Maxima diesel

[RonSteinbach]

Now that clean diesels will soon be sold in the U.S., diesel fuel prices have mushroomed up to 70 cents per gallon higher than regular.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344170,00.html

These record diesel prices will certainly scare potential diesel buyers off. The savings in MPG won't be large enough to pay for the more expensive fuel. So, why buy a diesel?:mad: Any comments?

[RHMax]

The government needs to stop "helping"?

[psypher22]

wow...


I mean, all i can say is, we've got to bring alternative--ethanol to market as quickly as possible. u know, that ethanol that theyve been making from garbage?

That, and hybrid usage must continue to increase....the thing im worrid about is battery disposal for those hybrids in the future. But we've got to combine all these technologies together to help ourselves out here. The situation is just getting worse every day.

[JerryG]

You have to feel for the big-rig truckers. A diesel fill up for them can cost over $1K :eek:

That's why they are considering striking or finding another line of work according to last night's news.

It does seem like this could be a very wet blanket for diesel car sales.

[reb]

I read somewhere that GM is planning to bring cars to the market with high capacity electric motors. The electric motor will power the vehicle. Lithium ion batteries are recharged on the fly by a small displacement diesel motor. With the new Cafe standard set at 35mpg, this technology makes the most sense to me.

[fatddyslam69]

while i think it is ridiculous the prices of diesel/regular fuel continue to increase, im not sure ethanol (from corn) is the answer.

Corn prices have managed to increase like 40-50% since Ethanol fuel production started to get popular. You know what this has done to other countries? especially for third-world countries?

In addition to that, ethanol created from corn is very inefficient to produce, and only yields 10% more energy. Ethanol created from sugar cane, contrarily, yields 4x more energy in the ethanol produced when compared to corn.

When we increasingly devote more and more land to corn, and less to other crops such as soybeans, countries in Central America that are large consumers of soybeans must cut away their savanna's and rain forest in order to grow crops to make up for the problem.

Another very interesting fact is that corn actually puts more carbon into the air than burning fuel. In addition to that, the pesticides we use to take care of our corn crops not only have oil, but they are creating dead zones in our Gulfs and oceans.

Ethanol (from corn) is not the answer. What is? i dont know

[reb]

Diesel fuel is chemically identical to home heating oil. Here in the northeast, the posted price for heating oil is $3.99 per gal.

[RHMax]

No alternatives are cheaper and more efficient than oil right now and in the forseeable future. While we need to find alternative sources, we need to drill for more of our own oil and build more refineries to keep prices down and still generate revenue for R&D.

[07G35S]

Diesel is supposed to be more efficient though, and the price seems less volatile.

[omelet1978]

I would say that the chances of diesel becoming mainstream in the US is pretty small now that diesel's price has gone up so much recently. I did a quick comparison and figured out that even though diesel is more efficient you are only going to save a few dollars with the new prices.

It sucks for the Maxima b/c it was a good idea. Hopefully, it does not cost very much extra for the diesel engine next year.

[bb700092]

I agree with RHMax and omelet1978. But I cannot wait to drive the 2010 diesel Maxima and experience the high low-end torque.

Regarding fuel efficiency, I do not understand why auto makers are not looking more into how to put a slightly more powerful battery that will drive the car in situations where very little power is required, for e.g. idling at a red signal. If such batteries start getting mass produced for many cars, their price is bound to come down. My suggestion here is not to make most cars hybrid which might eventually happen anyway. Unlike hybrid cars, I think such batteries can be charged by running the car itself.

[2002MaximaSE]

I agree with RHMax and omelet1978. But I cannot wait to drive the 2010 diesel Maxima and experience the high low-end torque.

Regarding fuel efficiency, I do not understand why auto makers are not looking more into how to put a slightly more powerful battery that will drive the car in situations where very little power is required, for e.g. idling at a red signal. If such batteries start getting mass produced for many cars, their price is bound to come down. My suggestion here is not to make most cars hybrid which might eventually happen anyway. Unlike hybrid cars, I think such batteries can be charged by running the car itself.

If the car isn't hybrid, how would a "more powerful battery" power the car? There has to be some transfer of energy, from mechanical (engine) to battery (electric motor)...that's what a hybrid is, the transfer between two power sources... :confused:

[da99]

Regarding fuel efficiency, I do not understand why auto makers are not looking more into how to put a slightly more powerful battery that will drive the car in situations where very little power is required, for e.g. idling at a red signal. If such batteries start getting mass produced for many cars, their price is bound to come down. My suggestion here is not to make most cars hybrid which might eventually happen anyway. Unlike hybrid cars, I think such batteries can be charged by running the car itself.

Ummmm... you do realize that in a "full hybrid" vehicle the batteries ARE recharged by running the car itself right? Some "hybrids" use regenerative braking to recharge the batteries, others generate electricity by spinning an electrical generator to recharge the battery packs while the engine is running. Most modern hybrids use both systems, so I don't understand what you are suggesting here?

[bb700092]

I am suggesting a system that is less involved than a traditional hybrid both in terms of cost and function. Lets compare the two cars -- 2008 Toyota Prius and Yaris (all figures from Toyota website).

Prius (eCVT)
City/hwy/combined mpg: 48/45/46
Hp: 110 @ 5,000 rpm
Torque: 82 @ 4,200 rpm
Interior volume: 96.2 cu ft
Curb weight: 2,932 lbs
Price: $21,760

Yaris sedan (A/T)
City/hwy/combined mpg: 29/35/31
Hp: 106 @ 6,000 rpm
Torque: 103 @ 4,200 rpm
Interior volume: 87.1 cu ft
Curb weight: 2,326 lbs
Price: $15,260 (comparably equipped price)

Note that a Prius offers better mpg than a Yaris but at the cost of higher price and less torque. This higher price and less torque is to a large extent due to the hybrid platform utilized in the Prius. One would pay $6,500 more for the Prius with which he could have bought 1,600 gals of gas at more than $4/gal. In a Yaris, he could have driven almost 50,000 miles (at 31 mpg combined) with that amount of gas. So when purchasing a Prius, he is paying equivalent to a Yaris + 50k miles of gas, and sacrificing some significant amount of torque. So is he really benefitting that much by purchasing a Prius over a Yaris?

My point was to look into building a car that will not get mpg as good as a Prius but still better than a Yaris (for e.g. in the 35/35/35 city/hwy/combined range). And that car will cost very close to the Yaris (at most a $1,000 more) and will have the same torque/hp as the Yaris. I believe, in order to build such a car, we do not need a "full hybrid" platform but just a battery more powerful than that of the Yaris but still less than that of a Prius. This battery will perform much less functions than that in a Prius but a few more than that in a Yaris. We need to figure out the crucial situations where the engine is almost unused but still consumes fuel (for e.g. while idling at signals) and a low-cost technology of power transfer to and from the engine to the battery at such situations. Thus, the vehicle will be less involved than a traditional hybrid both in terms of cost and function but will be a winner if we analyze cost as the way I did above for the Prius/Yaris.

The Prius and Yaris were just examples, this logic holds for many different vehicles but I couldn't find a better example for comparison.

[2002MaximaSE]

I am suggesting a system that is less involved than a traditional hybrid both in terms of cost and function. Lets compare the two cars -- 2008 Toyota Prius and Yaris (all figures from Toyota website).

Prius (eCVT)
City/hwy/combined mpg: 48/45/46
Hp: 110 @ 5,000 rpm
Torque: 82 @ 4,200 rpm
Interior volume: 96.2 cu ft
Curb weight: 2,932 lbs
Price: $21,760

Yaris sedan (A/T)
City/hwy/combined mpg: 29/35/31
Hp: 106 @ 6,000 rpm
Torque: 103 @ 4,200 rpm
Interior volume: 87.1 cu ft
Curb weight: 2,326 lbs
Price: $15,260 (comparably equipped price)

Note that a Prius offers better mpg than a Yaris but at the cost of higher price and less torque. This higher price and less torque is to a large extent due to the hybrid platform utilized in the Prius. One would pay $6,500 more for the Prius with which he could have bought 1,600 gals of gas at more than $4/gal. In a Yaris, he could have driven almost 50,000 miles (at 31 mpg combined) with that amount of gas. So when purchasing a Prius, he is paying equivalent to a Yaris + 50k miles of gas, and sacrificing some significant amount of torque. So is he really benefitting that much by purchasing a Prius over a Yaris?

This is a somewhat flawed analysis...you're only looking at the torque figures for the engine. You need to also consider the torque of the electric motor driving the wheels: 103(engine) + 295 (electric) = 398 ft/pds
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=39&Number=1148047&Searchpage=1&Main=87740&Words=%2Bprius+%2Btorque&topic=0&Search=true#Post1148047


My point was to look into building a car that will not get mpg as good as a Prius but still better than a Yaris (for e.g. in the 35/35/35 city/hwy/combined range). And that car will cost very close to the Yaris (at most a $1,000 more) and will have the same torque/hp as the Yaris. I believe, in order to build such a car, we do not need a "full hybrid" platform but just a battery more powerful than that of the Yaris but still less than that of a Prius. This battery will perform much less functions than that in a Prius but a few more than that in a Yaris.

Your comparison is flawed...it is not the battery that allows the Yaris to get better mileage than a normal car. The Yaris is a smaller/lighter vehicle. You need to do some research on how a hybrid works. The battery is mearly a power storage device, used to save power and transfer it to the electric motor. Read da99's post again.

We need to figure out the crucial situations where the engine is almost unused but still consumes fuel (for e.g. while idling at signals) and a low-cost technology of power transfer to and from the engine to the battery at such situations. Thus, the vehicle will be less involved than a traditional hybrid both in terms of cost and function but will be a winner if we analyze cost as the way I did above for the Prius/Yaris.

The Prius and Yaris were just examples, this logic holds for many different vehicles but I couldn't find a better example for comparison.

They did..it's called a Prius. Those "crucial situations" take logic and management (read higher technology) to control. You don't get that for free. Also, the added batteries take maintenance a normal car does not need (extra cooling for example). That also takes green stuff. Add in the complexity of keeping those computers/cables/batteries reliable for 5 - 10 years and you've got a car that costs more than a regular car.

You seem to believe that this only requires $1000 extra dollars to the price of a Yaris.
How are you coming up with that figure?
What makes $6000 over the price of the Yaris too much?
What is on the Prius that you believe can be removed to get this figure?

[bb700092]

This is a somewhat flawed analysis...you're only looking at the torque figures for the engine. You need to also consider the torque of the electric motor driving the wheels: 103(engine) + 295 (electric) = 398 ft/pds
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=39&Number=1148047&Searchpage=1&Main=87740&Words=%2Bprius+%2Btorque&topic=0&Search=true#Post1148047


How much of that torque is available when a Prius accelerates from dead stop?


Your comparison is flawed...it is not the battery that allows the Yaris to get better mileage than a normal car. The Yaris is a smaller/lighter vehicle. You need to do some research on how a hybrid works. The battery is mearly a power storage device, used to save power and transfer it to the electric motor. Read da99's post again.

I never said the battery allows the Yaris to get better mileage than a normal car. You need to read my post again.


They did..it's called a Prius. Those "crucial situations" take logic and management (read higher technology) to control. You don't get that for free. Also, the added batteries take maintenance a normal car does not need (extra cooling for example). That also takes green stuff. Add in the complexity of keeping those computers/cables/batteries reliable for 5 - 10 years and you've got a car that costs more than a regular car.

You completely missed my point. I know they figured out crucial situations when building a hybrid. I am looking for a subset of those situations which are more crucial such that a less costly and involved platform than a full hybrid would work, thereby providing mpg worse than a full hybrid but better than a conventional car and costing very close to a conventional. In a less involved hybrid, all the costs that you are talking about will be reduced. In fact, I think within the next few years, we will have the technology to convert conventional fuel cars to a hybrid (not a full hybrid but a less involved one) by adding a more powerful battery and some tweaks without spending a fortune.


You seem to believe that this only requires $1000 extra dollars to the price of a Yaris.
How are you coming up with that figure?
What makes $6000 over the price of the Yaris too much?
What is on the Prius that you believe can be removed to get this figure?

I never said this requires $1000 extra dollars. That is an estimate I proposed with which in mind the auto makers should work towards. This figure is just to make sure they do not manufacture a car that provides very good mpg but also costs a fortune.

Whether $6,500 (where did you get the figure $6,000?) more is too much for a Prius or not is personal opinion. But I showed that a customer can purchase a Yaris + 50k miles of gas with the price of a Prius.

I never wanted to remove something from a Prius and reduce cost. Rather, I wanted to add something to a conventional car which would increase cost and would try to keep that cost increase to a minimum. I would not create a new hybrid platform as a Prius but look into how the existing conventional platform can be tweaked along with a more powerful battery to increase mpg.

If you still haven't understood what I am saying, I would suggest not pressurizing your brain any more. Just wait for a few years and you will see modding kits available in the aftermarket for increasing mpg just like we have modding kits (e.g. turbo, supercharger, etc.) available in the aftermarket for increasing hp.

[Tried]

How much of that torque is available when a Prius accelerates from dead stop?

Somebody dyno'd a Prius. Results here: http://www.pulstarplug.com/tresults/results/05prius/05priusdyno.jpg

For the electric motor, 295 is available from 0-1200 RPMs. RPMs are for the electric motor, not the engine. I'm guessing that it was revving higher than 1200, which explains why this result is not even close to 295.

[2002MaximaSE]

How much of that torque is available when a Prius accelerates from dead stop?

It uses the eletric engine from a stop so 295 ft/pds.


I never said the battery allows the Yaris to get better mileage than a normal car. You need to read my post again.

From your posts, you want a conventional car with added functionality of a hybrid, a more powerful battery, but not a full hybrid system.

What exactly is in between conventional (engine) and a hybrid (engine and electric motor). I gurantee, it is not just "more powerful battery".


You completely missed my point. I know they figured out crucial situations when building a hybrid. I am looking for a subset of those situations which are more crucial such that a less costly and involved platform than a full hybrid would work, thereby providing mpg worse than a full hybrid but better than a conventional car and costing very close to a conventional. In a less involved hybrid, all the costs that you are talking about will be reduced. In fact, I think within the next few years, we will have the technology to convert conventional fuel cars to a hybrid (not a full hybrid but a less involved one) by adding a more powerful battery and some tweaks without spending a fortune.
Who's to say which crucial situations are more or less crucial? I think the technology will get refined and bring the price down, but situations like stop/go, slow down in parking lot, etc aren't going to change that much.




I never said this requires $1000 extra dollars. That is an estimate I proposed with which in mind the auto makers should work towards. This figure is just to make sure they do not manufacture a car that provides very good mpg but also costs a fortune.

You did.
And that car will cost very close to the Yaris (at most a $1,000 more)

I'm just curious on how you came up with $1000. The batteries currently cost $3000, even if they cut the cost in 1/3 you still have the other technologies to consider.



Whether $6,500 (where did you get the figure $6,000?) more is too much for a Prius or not is personal opinion. But I showed that a customer can purchase a Yaris + 50k miles of gas with the price of a Prius.

It was an approximation.

Right, you showed 50K miles at todays price (roughly $4). In a few more years that won't be the case as we approach 5$ and $7 gas.


I never wanted to remove something from a Prius and reduce cost. Rather, I wanted to add something to a conventional car which would increase cost and would try to keep that cost increase to a minimum. I would not create a new hybrid platform as a Prius but look into how the existing conventional platform can be tweaked along with a more powerful battery to increase mpg.

How would a more powerful battery in a conventional car increase MPG? It's the hybrid powertrain that allows the battery power to be converted to movement.


If you still haven't understood what I am saying, I would suggest not pressurizing your brain any more. Just wait for a few years and you will see modding kits available in the aftermarket for increasing mpg just like we have modding kits (e.g. turbo, supercharger, etc.) available in the aftermarket for increasing hp.

More to the point, you haven't explained your argument well and are now resorting to belittlement.

I'd just like to hear your version of a "less involved hybrid" system. As to kits to get more mpg, there are several for hybrids, but conventional engine technology requires much, much more (CPU changes, direct injection, etc).

[bonzelite]

while i think it is ridiculous the prices of diesel/regular fuel continue to increase, im not sure ethanol (from corn) is the answer.

Corn prices have managed to increase like 40-50% since Ethanol fuel production started to get popular. You know what this has done to other countries? especially for third-world countries?

In addition to that, ethanol created from corn is very inefficient to produce, and only yields 10% more energy. Ethanol created from sugar cane, contrarily, yields 4x more energy in the ethanol produced when compared to corn.

When we increasingly devote more and more land to corn, and less to other crops such as soybeans, countries in Central America that are large consumers of soybeans must cut away their savanna's and rain forest in order to grow crops to make up for the problem.

Another very interesting fact is that corn actually puts more carbon into the air than burning fuel. In addition to that, the pesticides we use to take care of our corn crops not only have oil, but they are creating dead zones in our Gulfs and oceans.

Ethanol (from corn) is not the answer. What is? i dont know

^^^ +1000