New Z car: NDI vs. Nissan Japan

[mcervantes]

It's been widely reported that NDI is competing with Nissan Japan's design team to be the designers of the new Z. But if you were making the decisions, who would you pick??

NDI is certainly known for controversy with their designs [i.e. Altima, Y2K Maxima] and they haven't had much experience in designing sports cars. But on the other hand, they definitely don't design boring cars.
Nissan Japan has had a lot of experience with sports cars [i.e. Silvia, Skyline] but sometimes turn out some bland cars.

Who would you pick??
mikecervantes

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I would pick the one with retro styling. Was it done by NDI or the Japanese studio?

[mcervantes]

That orange Z concept? That was done by NDI.

[dfw_alan]

Who would I pick, that'll be difficult since we don't have any recent design pics to chose from :-)

But if I were to base my decisions on NDI and Japan's styling recently, it will be very difficult.

Starting with Nissan Japan, I think the skyline GTR styling is too brutal for my taste... but the S15 is beautiful. I wish the XVL styling was more like the concept drawing which is way more agressive. There isn't a design from the Japan studio that I don't dislike, with the exception of the S15 there isn't one that I really like either.

NDI's designs are either like it or hate it.... Maxima = hate it. Xterra = like it. 2001 Frontier = like it.

I'm a gambling mentality type of guy. Either strike out or hit a homerun. I'll bite the bullet and chose NDI.

I remember back in '89 when I first saw the Z32... It's design was radical, enough stying put Ferrari's to shame (not to mention its 0-60), the only car that could drop my jaw further was seeing a Ferrari F40. But the asking price was just too steep even though it was a bargain compared to those cars costing 2x 3x.

NDI has stated that the new will be agressive and full of testosterone, which it should. My main concern is that they keep the styling mature and refined like ferrari's do.... rather is brutal like the mustangs and vipers of the world.

[slowpoke]

Although NDI doesn't have as much experience designing sports cars, I think that they have done a better job of creating attractive cars as of late - I *like* the look of the new Maxima, & the new Xterra... my jury is still out on the new Sentra, though it is a *big* improvement. Even if you don't *like* some of these newer designs, you must admit that they are distinctive, and that counts for something with Nissan these days.

Going back to sports car designing experience, remember that NDI did design the NX1600/2000. I know that this car was just a little pocket-rocket built off the Sentra platform, but the car's appearance has held up well over time. Another NDI creation, the Infiniti J30, has a form that has held up well over time, too.

NDI has shown themselves to be much better at *consistently* designing cars that suit the American taste. Nothing against the Japanese designers, but they have different ideas of what is aesthetically appealing. These ideas can be great (the original Q45) or not so great (the current Q45). NDI has been more consistent (in my opinion) at creating stylish vehicles that suit the American taste. I say go with the NDI plan. http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif

[Max Ima]

To me, it isn't so much NDI vs. Japan as it is Nissan vs. The world. I'm for whatever design has the folks at Honda, Toyota and VW shaking in their respective kimonos and lederhosen. And whatever design will have the Ford guys shaking in their Gap khakis. Nissan is now a global company, it's time to start acting like one.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i'm thinking i would go with the Japanese studio's design. i hope they give it a refined sports-coupe look like the S15 Silvia. also hope it's an evolution of the Z32, which was a great design in my opinion. i kinda think that the NDI's Z concept was too high off the ground (looked like it was). kinda looked like an SUV. it didn't look too aggressive either.

i hope NDI's new concept bears no resemblence whatsoever to the 2001 Frontier. no riveted fender flares please!

[TitaniusMaximus]

Is it just me or the guys at NDI design vehicles resembling a bar of soap??? NDI's designs always has touted to be controversial, but always has been lukewarm in stirring emotions (although they design excellent trucks, first gen Path, XTERRA, Quests, 2001 Frontiers)... but on the other hand the Nissan Japan studios has turned out some so so designs, but they also have turned out some WINNERS (Z32 300ZX, R34 Skyline, current Pathfinder SEs, first gen. Q45), which actually evokes major emotions when you look at them... So even if it was a hit or miss, I would put my money on Nissan Japan...

[This message has been edited by Doctor Tae (edited 04-11-2000).]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I agree with Max Ima, we can't afford a divided camp right now. I'm for whatever design that's best for the Nissan Revival http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Tae:
Is it just me or the guys at NDI design vehicles resembling a bar of soap??? NDI's designs always has touted to be controversial <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought NDI designs looked like a rotting egg http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif Everything is too rounded, no defining lines, dull as can be, or contreversial (Gobi, Altima, Latest Maxima, J30, etc). I like my cars with sharp creases, defining lines make a bold statement... Maybe thats why I like the 2001 Frontier design... Surprisingly was penned by NDI.

To me controversial designs are crap. Either a design captures your imagination (like Ferraris) or it doesn't....

This notion that "the more you look at the design you'll learn to appreciate" it is complete BS. Thats a euphamism for "we are artist lacking direction, so we just threw a buncha crappy ideas together hoping someone will appreciate it".

Oh well, hopefully we'll find out what the Z should look like by June 30.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i'm hoping they give the Z a curvy exotic design like the Corvette or the Ferrari 360 Modena. i have no idea what NDI's talking about when they say the Z will be "wheel oriented". 20 inch rims? frontier-inspired fender flares? (blasphemous). who knows.

hopefully they won't go overboard with it and make it look like something out of Mad Max.. (the frontier kinda does)

[noelsaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacman:
I always thought NDI designs looked like a rotting egg http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif Everything is too rounded, no defining lines, dull as can be, or contreversial (Gobi, Altima, Latest Maxima, J30, etc). I like my cars with sharp creases, defining lines make a bold statement... Maybe thats why I like the 2001 Frontier design... Surprisingly was penned by NDI.

To me controversial designs are crap. Either a design captures your imagination (like Ferraris) or it doesn't....

This notion that "the more you look at the design you'll learn to appreciate" it is complete BS. Thats a euphamism for "we are artist lacking direction, so we just threw a buncha crappy ideas together hoping someone will appreciate it".

Oh well, hopefully we'll find out what the Z should look like by June 30.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For what it's worth, I liked the J30 and first gen Altima. Yes, they were eggy or ovoid... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif

A lot of NDI's controversial designs have grown on me. At first I didn't like the 2000 Maxima...I am really starting to like the front. It certainly is not boring like the Camry or Accord. It is futuristic and sleek. I have to admit that Chrysler's design (NOT technology) I admire...especially the 300M and Intrepid.

[Max Ima]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by noelsaw:
For what it's worth, I liked the J30 and first gen Altima. Yes, they were eggy or ovoid... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif

A lot of NDI's controversial designs have grown on me. At first I didn't like the 2000 Maxima...I am really starting to like the front. It certainly is not boring like the Camry or Accord. It is futuristic and sleek. I have to admit that Chrysler's design (NOT technology) I admire...especially the 300M and Intrepid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. I was not a fan of the 2000 Maxima. But now that I keep seeing them on the road (a lot of SE's by the way) I'm really starting to like the rear. In a weird way, I kinda wish the front was as "controversial" as the rear.

[Max Ima]

Now that I like the 2000 Maxima, does anyone know who penned it? (Maybe they're working on the new Z.) Was it Hirshberg? Or the woman who designed the new truck?

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Max Ima:
Now that I like the 2000 Maxima, does anyone know who penned it? (Maybe they're working on the new Z.) Was it Hirshberg? Or the woman who designed the new truck? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The story goes that Hirshberg penned the Maxima on a napkin at at baseball game.

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:
i'm hoping they give the Z a curvy exotic design like the Corvette or the Ferrari 360 Modena. i have no idea what NDI's talking about when they say the Z will be "wheel oriented". 20 inch rims? frontier-inspired fender flares? (blasphemous). who knows.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are refering to fender flares. If you look at all the Z's, the fenders are pretty much vertical and the amount of wheel width you can fit in the car isn't as much as the Supra's.

I'm hoping that NDI chose to flare their fenders and give it the look that those LeMans'style GT cars have.... rather than the Mustang/Frontier... which is just plain brutal, not so aerodynamic and is better suited to those unrefined automobiles.

[2HD]

Now that I've seen what the Japanese Z might look like. I think I'm gonna go with the US version at NDI. The Japanese Z did not inspire me at all the front looks too much like a 2000 celica mixed with an integra and the rear is even worse it looks dated and boring.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'm going to sound like someone who's unable to move forward, but I wish they'd just evolve the Z32 styling. I'm not sure they're actually going to be able to top the styling of the Z32 in my eyes. So far, every incarnation of the new Z concept that I've seen has done nothing for me....has not stirred anywhere near the same feelings that looking at my Z has.

[GTR]

i personally want something that resembles the 280z with a touch of skyline GTR in it. maybe i can do a few sketches =P

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cherry3z:
I'm going to sound like someone who's unable to move forward, but I wish they'd just evolve the Z32 styling. I'm not sure they're actually going to be able to top the styling of the Z32 in my eyes. So far, every incarnation of the new Z concept that I've seen has done nothing for me....has not stirred anywhere near the same feelings that looking at my Z has. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've thought about it too. Even Bugatti has used Z32-esque front for its $600K 1993 Bugatti EB110! http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/wink.gif

On the other hand, Z32 looked kind of fat. Z32 is IMHO one of two most beautiful sports cars (&lt; $100K) of it's time; the second one was third generation RX-7. Even new C5 Corvette that I like much more than C4 borrows a lot from RX-7. So, I'd like the new Z to be more slender.

[GTR]

i dunno about the slender look on the z. the z has always had this rather chubby aggressive look on it. on a side note, the new rz-evolv and rz-7 concepts are taking on that chubby look too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/grin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Why doesn't NIssan sell both versions? I think the auto industry has got it all wrong. Instead of designing each size category with only one car, they should come out with more styles. (just like shoes...) GM has taken over ford's truck sales because it sells two virtually identical trucks. In Japan, the March and its retro counterpart have both excelled tremendously. I think that Nissan should come out with both designs for the Z, as well as retro/neo versions for their entire product line. THat way the Sentra, with the same platform and engines, will be able to compete with both the Focus/Celica modern look, the boring civic/corolla look, and also the retro PTcrusier. This will save money, expand product line, attacking as Toyota does every niche market with low costs.

[dfw_alan]

Actually the Z was known/popular for its long slender hood. When Nissan made it fat and wide (84+ 300ZX) it was widely criticized by the motoring press, Z purist, and Mr K himself.

Judging the popularity of small roadsters, what Nissan did from the S14 to S15, and the fact that Mr K is providing some input on what the new Z should be...... the GT-Sport ZX is on its way out.... the Sport-GT Z is making its comeback.... hopefully.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

i think nissan should bring the S15 silvia over with the SR20DET and have the Z as its big brother (with higher performance of course). this might be a hard task being that the Silvia is a very fast car for the money. maybe nissan can pull something off (all aluminum Z with VQ35DET, 6 speed manual would be cool)

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:
maybe nissan can pull something off (all aluminum Z with VQ35DET, 6 speed manual would be cool)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All aluminum.... The Z would cost as much as the NSX or Modena... If only the aluminum process were as simple as pooring the metal into a mold, and stamping into a desired shape.

The only thing thats going to be aluminum on the Z is the suspension (Silvia, Skyline) and at most the hood (Z32, Skyline).

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacman:
All aluminum.... The Z would cost as much as the NSX or Modena... If only the aluminum process were as simple as pooring the metal into a mold, and stamping into a desired shape.

The only thing thats going to be aluminum on the Z is the suspension (Silvia, Skyline) and at most the hood (Z32, Skyline).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i was thinking that would be one way they could bring both the S15 Silvia and the Z here. but unfortunately, it probably won't happen. the performance of the S15 is probably more than this upcoming Z can handle unless it's like an NSX or Modena like you said. nissan's lineup will probably consist of one sports car--the Z, which will probably be an image car mostly

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:

nissan's lineup will probably consist of one sports car--the Z, which will probably be an image car mostly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nissan can still keep the wieght of the car down without using a significant amount of $$$ aluminum (only on engine & suspension). For cost reasons they will no longer use "durasteel" which is 40% thicker and somewhat heavier than standard steel because of the extra zinc coating. They can also take the minimalistic approach by making the Z smaller, toss out crap like powerseats, heated mirrors, cruise-control, HICAS, Glass T-Tops, Electronic 2-way adjustable shocks, leather.....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:

nissan's lineup will probably consist of one sports car--the Z, which will probably be an image car mostly<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nissan can't afford wasting the name of Z by selling an NSX-like image car. They want profit on it, so all of us can hope for an affordable Z for everyone http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/grin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I feel Nissan has to look into the past.The 240z killed everything in its class and stepped up to alot of exotics without fear.Before the Z..The words "reliable" and "sports car" were not used in the same sentence.Now Nissan has the VQ to make it fast,and enough in the parts bin to make waves again.The people need a sports car under 30 grand.Kids think FWD Integras are sports cars...What is the world coming to?The thought of a Z car thats the same price as a loaded mid 80s Z is exciting.This car will sell,Nissan is gathering enough feedback from the U.S. market this time,like they did with the 240z.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Poligraf:
Nissan can't afford wasting the name of Z by selling an NSX-like image car. They want profit on it, so all of us can hope for an affordable Z for everyone http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/grin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

a Z for everyone would have to be dirt cheap. i hear the new Z is supposed to super high performance, i don't think there's any way the Z will be really affordable, like the original. the Silvia S15 is probably the closest to the original Z in performance and value

no sports car is really for 'everyone' anyway. mainly more upwardly mobile people--sports cars just aren't practical for most people, resulting in the popularity of SUV's. the Z at any price will be an image car. it most likely won't sell 150,000 units a year and make humongous profits for nissan. however, it will help their image

[Slack00]

In order to sell a new sports car in the US, such as the new Z, we need to look at what is successful in the American market, and why others failed. Lets investigate this matter a little further:

What didn't work:
Expensive cars. (300zx TT, Supra TT, RX-7 TT) They were excellent vehicles, of course, but we are talking about PROFITABILITY here, not performance.

What DOES work:
Popular performance. You see, other than gearheads such as ourselves, the average consumer can't really appreciate the wonderful engineering and the small amount of performance gained with it for $20-40k extra dollars. Hence, the runaway sucess of the intitial 240sx, old school 300z, 240z RX-7, Supras.

Not only the import scene, but look at the domestic market as well. What do you see on the streets? Ford Mustangs. Chevy Camaros. Dodge Avengers/Chrysler Sebrings. And what works for other imports? Honda Civics/Integras. Toyota Celicas. What do all these cars have in common? Cheap priecetag.

Why do people like the domestic market? Lotsa horsepower, lotsa performance, good equation for serious tuning: Powerful engine, rear wheel drive.

What's wrong with domestic market?
Inferior build quality, largish, bulky feel of car.

Why do people like the import market?
Dependability, excellent handling feel, build quality, gas economy.

What's wrong with import market?
Front wheel drive, low horsepower, midget size.

WHY NISSAN SHOULD BLOW THEM ALL AWAY:
all of the above advantages, none of the drawbacks.

SO, getting to the point (finally) it is my opinion that NIETHER concept cars look good...They can't honestly sell the high performance inentions separating the new Z from all the Celicas/Integras/Civics/Neons when it looks just like all of them. It needs distinction.

Besides, there already is a PERFECT design...the Nissan Silvia. Its got the looks, the power, and the price to attract American buyers. It obeys the timeless formula of the sports car the best. I think, if marketed correctly, this could displace all of the above cars for market dominance. My only suggestion would be to put the fabulous VQ30DE engine that is so widely acclaimed in the engine bay (200hp) and offer a turbo equipped SE package (300hp) in the same manner we Americans have seen how sucessful branding of the Mustang/Mustang GT and Camaro/Camaro Z28 was.

With any luck to Sport Compact Car's article, maybe they will junk the Z concept and make an INTELLIGENT business move by cutting costs severly and bring the Silvia over....

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:
a Z for everyone would have to be dirt cheap. i hear the new Z is supposed to super high performance, i don't think there's any way the Z will be really affordable, like the original. the Silvia S15 is probably the closest to the original Z in performance and value

no sports car is really for 'everyone' anyway. mainly more upwardly mobile people--sports cars just aren't practical for most people, resulting in the popularity of SUV's. the Z at any price will be an image car. it most likely won't sell 150,000 units a year and make humongous profits for nissan. however, it will help their image<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking about "everyone", I've ment 25K+ http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/wink.gif
It should be priced so that people would cry, when buying Camry or Maxima ...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:
a Z for everyone would have to be dirt cheap. i hear the new Z is supposed to super high performance, i don't think there's any way the Z will be really affordable, like the original. the Silvia S15 is probably the closest to the original Z in performance and value

no sports car is really for 'everyone' anyway. mainly more upwardly mobile people--sports cars just aren't practical for most people, resulting in the popularity of SUV's. the Z at any price will be an image car. it most likely won't sell 150,000 units a year and make humongous profits for nissan. however, it will help their image<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe its all about timing.No RWD sports car is left that offers great power without a high price (no Mustangs and Camaros are not sports cars).A Z car thats priced like the Integras and such will have a market all its own,like the Miata had in the late 80s or the 240z in the early 70s.The Civic scooters will snear at first untill they see one romp up a Honda with 10 grand worth of mods.This is what I hope anyway.The MR2 turbo was a fabulous gem (owned one),but it died out with a wimper.The Z has name recognition and a fan base that could help make up for that.I havent even seen it and I would probably get on the waiting list tommorow if I could.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I dunno... Im fond of the Z32 and even the Z31. I love the looks of a Skyline R34, but the Z pictures i have seen so far.. im not really likeing. Granted i might buy one, because its a Z. and it has over 220hp. Doesn't mean it's my favorite. I wouldn't mind if they used the Z32 body :-)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

mustangs and camaros are sports cars... just a different breed than Z's are. i think most people view the Z as being more of a refined sports car than those pony cars anyway

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

Talk about timeless. The Z32 design has been around for 10+ years and it still have not aged!!! Base on the cycle of car design I'm sure the design was penned in '85 or something.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dave86Zx:
I dunno... Im fond of the Z32 and even the Z31. I love the looks of a Skyline R34, but the Z pictures i have seen so far.. im not really likeing. Granted i might buy one, because its a Z. and it has over 220hp. Doesn't mean it's my favorite. I wouldn't mind if they used the Z32 body :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

Yup, they are all sports cars. Most would agree that the 300ZX TT will fall under the GT catagory for it's refine ride and handling and everyday usability. The Pony cars would be the Muscle cars. They all have their good points. Just some make a better impression on a wall then others... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/grin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:
mustangs and camaros are sports cars... just a different breed than Z's are. i think most people view the Z as being more of a refined sports car than those pony cars anyway<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turbo:
Talk about timeless. The Z32 design has been around for 10+ years and it still have not aged!!! Base on the cycle of car design I'm sure the design was penned in '85 or something.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I dunno about 1985, but probably 88 would be a fair guess...and I agree, I think the styling is pretty timeless, but, like the Supra, RX-7, and others of its ilk, I don't think there really was enough demand in the sports car, or enough money in the pockets of the companies to re-engineer them...

I agree, we all like imports because of their technology, road feel and dependablitity, but , for sheer bang for the buck or power, you are hard pressed to find something faster or more powerful than a Chevy Camaro or Corvette....no matter HOW low tech it is....Lo tech just means MORE can be done to it to make it faster. The engines are beefy.
C'mon, tuners have been working with THOSE cars for MUCH longer than we have with our imports...it should be no suprise that they can make some serious machines out of those, too......

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slack00:
Well, I dunno about 1985, but probably 88 would be a fair guess...and I agree, I think the styling is pretty timeless, but, like the Supra, RX-7, and others of its ilk, I don't think there really was enough demand in the sports car, or enough money in the pockets of the companies to re-engineer them...

I agree, we all like imports because of their technology, road feel and dependablitity, but , for sheer bang for the buck or power, you are hard pressed to find something faster or more powerful than a Chevy Camaro or Corvette....no matter HOW low tech it is....Lo tech just means MORE can be done to it to make it faster. The engines are beefy.
C'mon, tuners have been working with THOSE cars for MUCH longer than we have with our imports...it should be no suprise that they can make some serious machines out of those, too......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree... For tuning nothing in the world will beat turbo charged engines. It doesn't take much to get a turbo charged engine to double its output.

With american engines you have to build the engine from the bottom up... rather than top down like the turbo'd imports.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

from my point of view, i kinda see imports as being more refined, and handle better. pony cars are drag strip machines. some of them are extremely fast running quarter miles that would put even the fastest skyline gtr to shame. but the gtr handles better and is more refined (this is a guess, having never even seen a skyline). they all sports cars, but they specialize in certain areas more than others (acceleration vs. handling)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nsuguy:
mustangs and camaros are sports cars... just a different breed than Z's are. i think most people view the Z as being more of a refined sports car than those pony cars anyway<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry,but I feel a car with no IRS but lots of power to be called somthing else.Sports cars and Pony/Muscle cars are different beasts.The Corvette and Viper are the only 2 (production) American sports cars Im aware of.Camaros and Mustangs are for people who drive in a straight line.Sports car drivers like to corner somtimes too!

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacman:
I disagree... For tuning nothing in the world will beat turbo charged engines. It doesn't take much to get a turbo charged engine to double its output.

With american engines you have to build the engine from the bottom up... rather than top down like the turbo'd imports.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhhh....well...how bout a turbocharged V8??......5.7L displacement AND 2 turbos....Lingengelter did that, made a 650 hp zinger, and if you read the reviews, its as smooth as stock...that's pretty damn impressive. AND with no major machining, head work, etc, etc.....Face it, there is only SO FAR you can go with small displacement engines...if you can double a small displacement engine, you can double a large displacement engine as well. Its all about air managment: ore air, more power. Technology only manages that air better or allows more to get in. If you are REALLY serious about pure speed (and speed only) it is MUCH cheaper to just get a big V8 than spend all the money on pushing your engine to the limits on a I4.

Hell, the GM Northstar V-8 is 5.0L AND DOHC....its in every '92+ Cadillac out there...

Also, those engines are torque monsters....every time you even blip the throttle, its gonna shove you to your seat, unlike a turboed car with lag. And while you CAN make a turbo with less lag, you have to sacrifie boost, and, ultimately, power.

I love those cars...but I like imports more because of their quality construction, technology used, excellent road feel and economy. As S14 SE said, they have much better manners.

[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 05-05-2000).]

[TitaniusMaximus]

This post should go in another forum, but since this talk has come up...

It is much harder to double the power of a big block V-8 than with small I-4... just think about it... within those cylinders big blocks have tons of space for the pistons to move up and down... but in a small displacement engines the spaces are tiny, so going up and down doesn't take up as much energy as the big blocks...

But yes, the bigger the engine, usually the bigger the horsepower... but the most powerful engines in the world are not much bigger than 3 liters to 4 liters...

[TitaniusMaximus]

Like I said... this really belongs in another post... but, you have missed my point...

I was merely trying to tell people that it is much harder to double the output of a big displacement engine, rather than the small displacement, simply because it requires more energy...

For example, Lingenfeller (check the spelling) took a C5 Corvette engine and twin turbocharged it... with a displacement of 5.7 liters it pushes out 650hp... where as Adam Saruwatari took a NSX engine with a 3.2 liters and twin turbocharged it... he gets over 1000hp... if the engine is too big, it requires too much energy to produce energy, and yet if they engine is too small, it doesn't have enough space to produce energy... so the happy medium is somewhere between 3.5 to 4.5 liters...

And you also gave the example of Indy/NASCAR racing... that's a good valid point... but in 24hr Le Mans Grand Prix, does not have restrictions on engine size (as far as I know of)... and all the winning engines are closer to 3.5 liters than anything else... BTW Nissan in 1999 entered two different engines... VRH35L - 3.5L twinturbo and VRH55L - 5.5L naturally aspirated... I don't recall the results, but I believe the 3.5L engine came out ahead...

[TitaniusMaximus]

And also check out the famous Italian exotics... Ferrari uses a 3.5 liter V-8 on it's F40 and F50? (not sure)
Lamborghini has the largest Italian engine at 5.7 liter V-12... they both produce close to 500hp... UNLIKE a 8 liter V-10!!!

Sometimes, bigger is not better...

[thearabian]

AND Let us not forget that top speed is good, makes you feel good that you have the capability, but when are you gonna get to it? On the roads we drive, it is better to accelerate faster in the low-end-speed than the high end. Unless of course you are on the Autobahn with some kind of deathwish! Which brings me to say that the McLaren F1 Supercar takes the cake http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

3.0 to 3.5 liters should be ample enough for the new Z car http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/grin.gif. hope some pics of the Z become available soon. hopefully japan designed it and did a good job, like the Z32

[dfw_alan]

Actually the reliable 650HP Stage 2 Ligenf...(sp) turbo kit will cost you $43,000 dollars. The engine is built bottom up with lower compression pistons and stronger rods, upgraded fuel system etc.

The stage 1 kit doesn't require the engine to be built up.... Ligenf...(sp) will cost you $23,000 for those Skyline GTR spec turbo's and upgraded fuel system which is good for ~500 unreliable HP ....

Its all listed at Lingenfelfter's website (www.lingenfelter.com) under "packeges"

Boy we are getting caried away with this lol.

[This message has been edited by dacman (edited 05-07-2000).]

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doctor Tae:
This post should go in another forum, but since this talk has come up...

It is much harder to double the power of a big block V-8 than with small I-4... just think about it... within those cylinders big blocks have tons of space for the pistons to move up and down... but in a small displacement engines the spaces are tiny, so going up and down doesn't take up as much energy as the big blocks...

But yes, the bigger the engine, usually the bigger the horsepower... but the most powerful engines in the world are not much bigger than 3 liters to 4 liters...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you are talking in terms of racing, yeah, all the Indy/Nascar engines are less than 3.5 liters, but its not because of choice; its because of a rule to keep power levels down and speeds down so people won't kill themselves on the track. They also rev up to 15000 (!!) rpms! Back in the sixties they used to use BIG V8's...speeds started getting too big, so they limited the displacements...now, with much better technology, they use small v8's with the same results as big v8's....I have NO DOUBT that, if a racing team was allowed to make them, they could (and would) use bigger engines. Top fuel dragsters use big engines; trap speeds get up to 300mph....I think they produce some 2000-3500 hp. Its just like any banned technology; the use of it changes the speeds and the dangers. You can only go so fast safely around a turn in a track. Recently, for indy racing, they limited the angle of attack/total surface area of aerofoils...why? more control means higher speeds, and higher speeds means more danger. Ever notice that the average speeds for these tracks has remained consistently around 180mph for the past 30 years? They weren't DESIGNED for higher speeds.

In the battle of engines, lets take a real world example. Porsche 911 Turbo vs. Dodge Viper. V10 vs. H6T. 8L vs 3.6L. OHV vs SOHC. 2wd vs Awd. Both engines produce 400-450 hp. Both cars weigh in at about 3500 lbs. The Porshe, with its smaller, higher revving engine and two turbos, easily edges out the Viper on 0-60 times. (3.7-3.8 vs 4.0-4.5, depending on what review you read). BUT.....look at the quarter mile time, and you will see that the tables are turned (12.3sec@114.1mph vs 12.2sec@119mph). And also at the one mile mark (31.2sec@162.6mph 30.6sec@169.4 mph). http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/mad.gif

AND...get this...The Viper, with only two drive wheels, outSLALOMS the Porsche (69.6mph vs 73.6mph). http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/shocked.gif

Remember, the Viper DOES NOT HAVE: All wheel drive...ANY turbos....SOHC...variable valve timing....

AND, best of all, its WAY WAY CHEAPER! Almost half as expensive! (~$110k vs ~$70k)

Okay okay, you may be saying, this is fine for a production automobile, but what about racing versions...well...the Viper GTS-R cleaned up in the past two years (sorry; no hard data for you here...just trust me)

Its a rule of nature, small things accelerate quicker, but with smaller top speeds, usually. take a 10 foot race between a mouse, a man, and a horse...who wins? The mouse. Take a 100 foot race between a mouse, a man, and a horse...who wins? the horse.

So...to recap...damn the turbos, valvetrain theory, etc etc....THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT FOR DISPLACEMENT. All the other high tech wizardry so far only SIMULATES diplacement. High lift cams--&gt;more air in, more simulated displacement. Forced induction--&gt;simulated displacement. Variable valvelift/timing/compression/whatever --&gt;yup, simulated displacement. Cold air induction--&gt; I'm sure we all get the idea now.

So, if all you want is cheap power...just get a bigger engine. But if you want handling and better weight distribution....THATS when you want a smaller, lighter engine.

[Slack00]

Yeah, this really should go in another post...oh well....

I don't doubt that a smaller engine is a BETTER choice for today's automotive world. It can now produce results that only larger engines could, with added fuel economy and lower weight to boot. Nobody really needs to go 800mph on today's streets OR tracks.

But...I'm sticking to my guns....for sheer power (HP)...bigger is better.

As for the Ferrari engines....yes, these engines are more powerful than the stock american ones...but there is some important details that you forgot to mention that make more sense....Ferrari's have 5 (FIVE!) valves per cylinder, DOHC, plus a host of other gadgetry. Not to mention 2-4 extra cylinders! This is also why these cars do not cost "only" $75k......thats also why these cars qualify as "Exotics".....

As for Mallet, Calloway, Hennesey, and LINGENFELTER (so far no one has been able to spell it correctly...including myself http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/tongue.gif )...remember, they have a business to run and dependability issues...they have to sell warranties with every car they sell and if you read their design philosophies, you will discern that customer satisfation is of siginificant importance to them. So, to them, it doesn't matter it they produce the most hp/liter. Besides, there really is a breaking point where extra torque and power will just liquefy your tires more and can sometimes lead to slowing your car down! As for the Acura NSX engine...again, its all about simulated displacement...how much boost were each of them running...the Lingenfelter turbos were running a moderate 8.5psi (so yes, he DID (fairly easily) nearly double his horsepower)...what was the Acura running? My guess is AT LEAST 10-15psi EACH...and I don't think he'd guarantee that car with a bumper to bumper 3year/30,000 mile warranty....

So...to end my discussion...I disagree...I think you can turbocharge or supercharge a large displacement engine just as easily...its just that high tech engine technologies are not usually applied to the larger enignes. In production sports cars, these engines are built for torque and off-the-line response, not total power (since nobody would ever really go 226mph anyway.) Besides, high-tech v8's use their techonology to reduce NVH levels, whereas, say, in a Corvette, the rumble of the OHV V8 is actually desireable.

As for racing, I will have to concede that I really don't know much about it...but just because the smaller engine one out doesn not necessarily mean a better engine design.

OKAY...this really has gotten out of hand and I promise to drop the subject now.....

To say something ON topic (for once) I agree that a 3.5 liter engine would be perfect for the new Z...now if they would only style it not to look like a friggin 97 Celica or Integra ....

[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 05-08-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 05-08-2000).]

[dfw_alan]

Something that hasn't been talked about yet, because it is trivial... but its the small details that can make a good vehicle a great one http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/smile.gif

I feel sports cars should ALWAYS have the tachometer as the center piece on the dash. Most Nissan's have two main round gauge clusters as center pieces, with a few cars being the exeption such as the new S15.

Would you rather look down at this (S15 r-spec)?
http://www.nissan.co.jp/ELEMENTS/GALLERY/IMAGE/xcga2.jpg

or this this (BNR34)?
http://www.nissan.co.jp/COMPASS/SKYLINE_GT-R/9901GT-RFC/COCKPIT/IMG/ck_b2a_h.jpg

[Slack00]

DEFINITELY the S15 guages....it doesn't really get any better than that....I especially love the OEM boost guage on the A pillar.....

[dfw_alan]

The digital dash is way too tacky, and hard on the eyes. Its much easier to gauge how fast you are accelerating by looking at needle than a buncha darn numbers jumping all over the place... most enthusiats hate digital dashes, one of the reason the C5 went back to an analog speedometer.... an 80's fad that quickly died out along with that era.

KISS. When you are driving a car quickly, the last thing you want is a whole buncha gauges in a single housing... though it looks very nice, it just isn't very ergonomic... IMHO


[This message has been edited by dacman (edited 05-09-2000).]

[JonCarson]

I don't think that was a picture of the gauges from a BNR34 because it only goes to 180km/h. I've sat in more than one Skyline and I believe they go up to something really high, like 360km/h.

I guess I'll have to find a picture now...

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by carsonjon:
I don't think that was a picture of the gauges from a BNR34 because it only goes to 180km/h. I've sat in more than one Skyline and I believe they go up to something really high, like 360km/h.

I guess I'll have to find a picture now...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Standard japanese gauges only go to 180km/h... Which is what their cars are governed to. Most people slap in aftermarket gauges and rechip their cars to eliminate the 112MPH governor.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

What do you, guys, think about digital dash a'la first generation 300zx ???

Tachometer is combined with the boost gauge and the speed is above (sorry, I don't have a picture).

[JonCarson]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacman:
Standard japanese gauges only go to 180km/h... Which is what their cars are governed to. Most people slap in aftermarket gauges and rechip their cars to eliminate the 112MPH governor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe you're right. All my friends' Skylines that I experienced in Japan were modified. We had never discussed any changes to their guages...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacman:
The digital dash is way too tacky, and hard on the eyes. Its much easier to gauge how fast you are accelerating by looking at needle than a buncha darn numbers jumping all over the place... most enthusiats hate digital dashes, one of the reason the C5 went back to an analog speedometer.... an 80's fad that quickly died out along with that era.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still think it has a right to live http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/wink.gif
Reasons Pro-dd are the following:
1) With higher speeds permitted you need to pack more on the same size of speedometer. It's a non-issue with the dd.
2) I hope the US will stop acting silly and goes metric like the entire world has done already. Car with dd can be switched one way or another with a single button.

For example, Honda used digital dash for densely packed S2K http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum//images/icons/wink.gif http://www.honda2000.com/models/s2000/visuals/index.html

[Nismo]

Oh, the tack in my car was dual-digital. It had an instantaneous readout on top which was sort of like a digital version of a needle gauge. But it also had a time-averaged digital readout below the scale which I also liked. It would read 3200RPM or 3300RPM, etc.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

My 1990 Maxima Brougham had both digital display and Heads Up Display... the speed
was projected on the bottom of the driver's side windsheild... alway very clear, even in bright sunshine... never used the dash... very useful and helpful.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I dont understand why, they can't put the
V-8 in it? Why not have a V-8 dual exhaust, 5 speed manual. No power locks, no power windows, no power mirrors, no talking computer, no digital dash, etc! The original Z was a sports car, not a luxury car. go back to the roots :-)

id buy it if it were like that

[**DONOTDELETE**]

they all sports cars, but they specialize in certain areas more than others (acceleration vs. handling)[/B][/QUOTE]

I say the Skyline is better. Put their speed into appliaction. Say for instance you had to race from Point A to Point B.

consider weather conditions, consider turns, or even traffic.

the skyline would most likely win hands down.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I think Nissan is a dead company. Even with the extra money coming in from Renualt they still cant get anything right. Whatever happened to the glory days?? Early 70's, early 90's Nissan designs were great! Now all we can get are boring dated designs lacking any sporty intentions whatsoever. Sure a car like the Sentra doesnt have to be sporty, but it can at least look great! Come on, lets face it. No matter who styles the new Z, Japan or USA it will still look like crap because Nissan's two major design studios suck at making cars! They have nice engines and drive trains, but they still look like crap.

[2HD]

I think since there spending a alot of time on the new Z, It should look at the least exceptional. Were very lucky they didn't use the one that they unvieled a year back. The Jerry guy was actually proud that he designed and put that POS together in 12 weeks. The designs are getting better, and I think there still learning although the Sentra was a drop on the charts in design I think they designed it before Renault had any help in it and if sales are slow which I heard they are I hope they will finally learn their lesson and never make anything as boring again. To me there heading in the right direction. All we can really do is hope for the best.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

the NDI concept didn't look so bad. but it could've been much better. the new Z should be an evolution of the last 300zx in my opinion. that was a nice car. i've always wanted one http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/owen/smash.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

You hit the nail on the head! I keep looking out for the REAL design for the new Z to be anything close to the Z32! That Z Concept design is very bad and has none of the excitement of the 300ZX. I'll proudly by-pass the NISSAN dealership and buy that Corvette - which has always been 3rd on my top 10 list (Z32 has always been #1)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cherry3z:
I'm going to sound like someone who's unable to move forward, but I wish they'd just evolve the Z32 styling. I'm not sure they're actually going to be able to top the styling of the Z32 in my eyes. So far, every incarnation of the new Z concept that I've seen has done nothing for me....has not stirred anywhere near the same feelings that looking at my Z has. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[**DONOTDELETE**]

We all keep talking about the new Z car and I think it is a shame (on Nissan) since the car that embodies the spirit of the Z car is already produced. If Nissan named it the Z car instead of the Slivia I think all the money they are spending on a new car could be spent elsewhere. Nissan is spending money to create a car that has the same attributes as the Silvia, except the fact that it is a 4 banger (although I can't see anyone complaining about the SR20DET) and the name stamped on the back isn't Z.

Two cars with similar price, performance, drivetrain layout, and looks (Silvia looks better IMO) with one or both for Japan and one for the US. The same car on different platforms, hmmm, no wonder Nissan is in debt!

They should take the Silvia and sell it as a Z in the US, they could even throw on new sheetmetal if they really want to. Who's going to care if there is an exact same car called the Silvia in Japan. The only people who know what a Silvia is are enthusiasts, and we all know what the bean counters think of us :P

On the whole displacement debate, with unlimited budgets and completely custom engines that can't pass emmissions and cars driven on DOT illegal tires, displacement will always win. But on the street I think you'll find that, for example, a Camaro SS and a Supra TT maxed out to legal standards have similar performance. I think the Supra will outhandle the SS due to suspension design and may even accelerate faster, who knows? As far as street cars, I think lower displacement cars can run with bigger displacement, and I'm not talking about a Civic Si vs a Viper. More engine means more weight and that is also part of the equation of going fast.

[2HD]

Is this the first time NDI has designed a sports car?

[dfw_alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2HD:
Is this the first time NDI has designed a sports car?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NDI and the Japanese studio had this styling contest also when they were designing the Z32. Needless to say the Japanese Studio's design was by far and away superior to NDI's which resembled a (of all cars) Ford Probe.

The last time NDI designed a sporty car/coupe was the early 90's NX2000. Needless to say it was one of the ugl... AHEM, most misunderstood car designs to ever. I see more Ferrari's driving around than those cars...

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dacman:
NDI and the Japanese studio had this styling contest also when they were designing the Z32. Needless to say the Japanese Studio's design was by far and away superior to NDI's which resembled a (of all cars) Ford Probe.

The last time NDI designed a sporty car/coupe was the early 90's NX2000. Needless to say it was one of the ugl... AHEM, most misunderstood car designs to ever. I see more Ferrari's driving around than those cars...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I think the NX2000 is pretty cool looking. I think the recessed headlights are pretty swank. I don't think people were really ready for the pill-bug look. Look at the Mazda MX3...that thing didn't sell too well, either, but it had a V6 option and was pretty sporty for a front driver.

[2HD]

The MX-who? http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slack00:
Hey, I think the NX2000 is pretty cool looking. I think the recessed headlights are pretty swank. I don't think people were really ready for the pill-bug look. Look at the Mazda MX3...that thing didn't sell too well, either, but it had a V6 option and was pretty sporty for a front driver.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Speaking of history and the design of the Z, you might find the following link interesting: http://zhome.com/History/MID-4.htm

You've probably all seen this one: http://Zhome.com/titleNov.html

[Mel E Bog]

Okay, I don't really know much about Honda history or anything like that, but doesn't that Mid 4-II look like the NSX just TOTALLY bit huge chunks off of it? I dunno...

Mel

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

Actually, the Mid 4 was before the NSX. I did manage to see the Mid 4 in an autoshow in Penang Malaysia, when it and the MKII MR2 was new. At that time I didn't really know what it was, but I knew I was staring hard at the Z32TT in Sterling Mist Silver and how that antenna is hidden from the wind. As for the Mid 4, it's a little bigger than the MKII MR2... Both were black... very sweet...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mel E Bog:
Okay, I don't really know much about Honda history or anything like that, but doesn't that Mid 4-II look like the NSX just TOTALLY bit huge chunks off of it? I dunno...

Mel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Regarding the NDI VS Japan, I think NDI may win it. You see the jappeness studio does, and has had some remarkable work, but NDI has improved alot more. Well regardless who's design wins I am gonna buy me a Z. I was too young to afford the Z32. Z 4EVER http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I dunno when NSX images/concept were first released, but MID4-II concept was released 2-3 years earlier than NSX went on sale.

Looking at net MID4 nose, I do pretty much see 87 300zx with different headlights. All the other 9including wheels) is similar (Z got restyled for 87, look at images at http://www.z31.com).

MID4-II is interesting too. Not only the front looks like NSX, but the rear is the origin for the 97-98 styling of the 240sx's rear.

[JonCarson]

I compared pics, and I see quite a bit of S15 in the C-pillar and rear flanks of the MID4-II.
Or should I say I see MID4-II in the C-pillar and rear flanks of the S15....

Of course, why not look through some of your past work for ideas on new designs?

[2HD]

Isn't tomorrow the day when the final Z pictures will be chosen, does anyone know who will probably win?

[dfw_alan]

Better yet, anyone know if they are going to release any pics http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif Oh well, we will find out in due time........... tick.......tick......tick.....

[xlr8r]

And you also gave the example of Indy/NASCAR racing... that's a good valid point... but in 24hr Le Mans Grand Prix, does not have restrictions on engine size (as far as I know of)... and all the winning engines are closer to 3.5 liters than anything else... BTW Nissan in 1999 entered two different engines... VRH35L - 3.5L twinturbo and VRH55L - 5.5L naturally aspirated... I don't recall the results, but I believe the 3.5L engine came out ahead...[/B][/QUOTE]
this also belongs in another forum but in le mans while there are different size engines the fact that the smaller displacement engines won the race has nothing to do the engine. in le mans, all the engines are limited to 600 h.p. panoz suprised everyone buy finishing in the top ten in '98. mercedes had been contenderers when they raced with v8's and bmw used a v12.

[xlr8r]

i also think the z32 was a beutiful car and would also like to see an evolution of it's styling. but i was wondering if nissan ever considered going to a third party to design the new z. maybe italdesign(in california, designers of the new bugatti concept) or pininfarina who usually designs ferraris.