Iron v.s. Aluminum engine dispute

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I was reading some old posts and alot of skyline fanatics were wanting the Z to have an iron block. Why? Look at all the # 1 high-performance cars that have all aluminum engines: Vipers, Corvettes,Aston Martin Vintage, BMW M5, Jaguar XKR coupe, Benz E55, Porsche carrera, Lamborghini Diablo 6.0 and Ferrari's just to name a few. Where are you coming from. Some guy was posting that he had or drove a 1300hp skyline. He was saying iron handles more power. Okay, when anyone here gets their Z who is going to make it have 1300hp? That's what I thought, no one. VQ 3.5 is the winner hands down. You iron people have to understand that iron is an inferior medal. They used those on old cars and now technology is growing and aluminum is the choice now. An example of irons distaste and falling admiration: Just look back in the industrial days. Iron was used to make railroads, but then a greater metal came along, "steel." It was lighter, stronger, less expensive, and it took 20 years for it to rust unlike iron which took only 3. Why do you think Iron Man always gets is a** kicked.

Now, aluminum is the favorite metal to use.

Another last point: Why would someone complain about the Z stealing its design and image from porsche. One person said I would hate that and would want the real thing. Well, why are you here at a nissan site admiring a 30K car. Go buy your porsche if you can afford it. For heaven sakes, if there was a car I wanted and it was based off another car manufacture and it was porsche I sure wouldn't be complaing. Imagine if they stole the ideal from an ugly duckling manufactur like. Be thankful people, Nissan has good taste. The Z will for sure still have an image of its own.

[Deadpool]

force is strong within u http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Ok I am going to have to stick up for my RB 26 again I guess, well RB 27. Prelude you may have misinterpreted what I was trying to note. I was simply stating that the RB 25 would:
1. Have a greater performance, since it is already turbo.
2. It's a mass produstion turbo power plant
3. The motor is capable of high horsepower reliably (i,e, without BLOCKGUARD)

There also is a misconception that aluminum alloy blocks are lighter than cast iron. Take the CA 18 for instance. It is almost the same weight as the SR, and if I am not mistaken, without accessories, is lighter.

I am not "bashing" the VQ motor, AND I HAVE REALIZED IT IS A LOSING PROPOSITION trying to convince americans that a the RB is a good motor. The RB is very smooth, easy to modify to HIGH horsepower levels. I am working on a TD 06S 20G twin, HKS step II pistons 1mm o/s, 272 cams, and HKS rods. i estimate that this car will be a true 800 ps car.

I know in saying this, americans aren't really impressed. Americans, typically, like low end torque. That's cool, but people should not "knock it 'till they try it." Hell, people in Japan don't modify Honda's. Why? there are a lot better cars. But, when I was in college, what did I have while my Talon was broke? A CRX. I loved it.

What I am trying to say is this, there may be a trend "toward" aluminum alloy blocks, but don't knock the RB series. I KNOW NO body here will modify their Z beyond header/ex/intake. that's cool, that american. In Okinawa, however, it's BIG horsepower that is king....different cultures I guess.

My job entails me to travel form Okinawa to the US quite frequently, I was born there, it really is remarkable how much the car culture is different, never mind culture it self. Americans are more apt to look good, sound fast.

I am not bashing Americans by any means, I am half American. I am just pointing out the facts. Here it comes......

[**DONOTDELETE**]

ekisela, you're way right about Americans (and us Canadians). Don't apologize. I know a guy who started his own customizing business here in Calgary, RPM Motorsports, and he'll tell you that most of the work he does is cosmetic. Even the performance parts they sell and install are more for looks and sound than anything else.
As far as the simmering engine debate, it seems clear that the Z will retain the VQ block. This is, in my opinion, the better choice for the American market. North Americans drive their cars for a lot longer, on average, than the Japanese or the Europeans, and the VQ is a VERY sound design. Plus, at 300 base horsepower, mild forced induction kits (like the Stillen Maxima kits) would probably push it past 400. That will be enough for myself, and most North Americans.
Not knocking the RB though, it has its place. A friend of mine in California just got a ridiculous promotion and pay raise, is looking to sell his monkeyed RX-7, dynoed at 380 RWHP, and pick up an exotic (Lotus, Ferrari [used], etc.). I've been trying to talk him into the Motorex dealer...that RB25 turbo is a very tunable engine, perhaps the most tunable of any Japanese car. If its time in autodom is past, maybe it will go down in history as a 'Japanese small block', and be produced as a crate motor by Nissan. Sorry to clutter your forum, new member, putting in my two cents...

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ekisela:
In Okinawa, however, it's BIG horsepower that is king....different cultures I guess.

My job entails me to travel form Okinawa to the US quite frequently, I was born there, it really is remarkable how much the car culture is different, never mind culture it self. Americans are more apt to look good, sound fast.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I agree with you... The RB is a great motor! And iron is actually a tougher metal, especially over time. All American drag kings use iron blocks. But for the market...and because of the light mods you just mentioned, the VQ is better for today's cars...and Nissan seems to agree....and since Nissan designed both I think I'm going to go with their opinion.

But what really perplexes me is your view of American culture. Why is it that everyone thinks Americans are show and no go?...

I'm afraid I'm gonna hafta go ahead and disagree with you there... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif

Now I'm not half Japanese, but I'm 100% Texan and I can tell you about American (and Texan) culture.

You say that Japan's image is about real horsepower, and that American cars are known for sounding fast and looking fast. I'm not going to disagree with the tendency for a large number of Americans to look good...but I think this is because Americans are paying homage to the culture that American vehicles in the past were known for....namely, BIG engines and BIG horsepower levels. But...as a whole, I think you got it all backwards: American cars (stock) are known for their brute strength, notfor being poseurs. And while there are plenty of poseurs out there, please don't let that allow you to lose respect for what real American gearheads have done.

American culture very heavily revolves around freedom, and what better expression of that than the automobile? Hot-Rodding was born in America. Wide open spaces and a highway system of the 1950s BUILT with one mile in five required by law to be built perfectly straight was the perfect breeding ground for the high horsepower drag culture. All American engines tend to be larger, torquier, and more powerful than their Asian counterparts. What were the 1960's and 1970's coupes called? MUSCLE cars.

Where was the Muscle Car Era in Japan? Where were the stock 427 cubic inch engines? American cars are known for their brute force. Is their any mandated 280 horsepower limit in America? Nope. Sky's the limit here. So, for every fake hopped up car you've seen over here, there actually one that runs 8's on street tires.

And as for looking and sounding fast? Do you actually take those fiberglassed bodied cars seriously? Personally, I wouldn't think twice about racing one of those guys...but let me tell you what REALLY scares me...87 Mustangs and 67 Camaros with three different colors of primer and cracked windshield....but with a bolt-on tach, a lumpity idle, and sporting slicks and skinnies. So it depends on who you talk to....Plenty of people here don't give a damn what their car looks like and are perfectly happy romping their competition all day.

And as for bone stock cars....where's the Japanese naturally aspirated 330 hp V8 car for $28k? Hell, the BASE engine for the $16k Mustang/Camaro is 190/200, the same level as the $24k+ Prelude...AND its rear wheel drive...

OK, OK, the Z is coming back to set things back aright, but its going to be $25-$30k ish with 300 hp....but thats STILL less than the 330 hp Camaro SS thats been here for, what, six? eight? years now? Yeah, maybe its not as refined, but the basic mechanicals are there: rear wheel drive and an engine you can work with.

OK OK, there's the beautiful S15, with 250 hp and sub-$25k pricetag...oop, but wait, it comes with a turbo, and I don't count that because any car that isn't supercharged can be.

If all you want is numbers.....like another member said, you can't beat an American domestic. While less powerful per liter, they leave a WHOLE lot more to work with.

You want big numbers? While 1500hp may be a big number in Japan, its not a big deal for American V8's Try 3000 hp for a Top Fuel Dragster. Where's the Top Fuel Dragsters in Japan?

I say all this in overkill to emphasize that if it is one thing American culture car is known for, it IS power.

On the other hand, the Japanese are known (in my book) for their better handling, better quality, and more efficient cars. And, in the long run, I think I get more enjoyment for my dollar from those three parameters than all the horsepower in the world.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Slack,

I will have to say, since I have lived in both the US and Japan, Okinawa to be more specific, have also been involved in BOTH car cultures. I know the 5.0 has a lot of potential, but the fact of the matter is, anything with over 500 horse has "brute force" Turbo or not, power is power.

First , the Japanese "performance car movement" was started by British influence. The S211 Datsun Fairlady is proof of that.
The Japanese performance car started out as a well rounded car, not Muscle, as you so put it. There is much more substance to a Japanese car, they handle, are more refined, and still fast. remember, during the early 1970's datsun's then new Z car dominated, rally, circuit, and other various venuse of the racing world. True, not brute force, as these were SPORTS cars, not mearly big motors, stuffed into a car body, with a truck frame.

I know of the Dallas scene. I lived in Las Colinas for a year. The infamous Royal lane Drags. I kow what's up. I have rebuilt a ford 5.0 liter to a 306 short stroker with TFS twisted wedge 2 heads on it with a Motorsport E 303. The car also later had a 2 stage 175 horse NOS kit installed on it. Yes, it was fast, will my GTR beat it on the street with Nismo le mans turbos, 550 injector, cpu, ex? Yes. Trust me when I say my car is fast, and has brute force, it just has it at 4500~8500RPM, not 2000~6000 RPM. trust me, once it gets going, it's gone.

Contrary to popular belief, a car with power that kicks in late is much easier to control, as the torque of a V8 will induce PLENTY of wheel spin. These are my own experiences, so there may be exceptions.

Japanese also don not just go in a straight line, and build purpose built cars like the street cars you see here, just for going straight. Suspension, wheel size, engine mods, ll play an integral part in the japanese car culture, that is just starting to happen in the US.

As for bone stock cars, if you want a Chevy Camaro, or a Ford, get one, dollar for dollar, they are a bad investment. Why? Build quality, resale, un refined, I could go on and on. Most people buy their car as a complete package, not just brute force. Is 300 horse really brute force?? That's a little funny to me.

I have respect for domestic cars, especially the Turbo 6 of the Buicks. Those by far have the most potential in my book. I like v8s, but most are too loud. Don't get me wrong, I love to open the external wastegate, but the car is quiet while driving normal, except for the Starlet.

That's all for now, if I missed something, let me know, it has been a hard day. I am working in San Jose this week, so I may check out Milpitas!! Domestics and imports.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

In the reference to all show no go, as you so put it, it was a reference to imports as a majority here.

I never even considered the domestic cars as this is an import bbs

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ekisela:
but the fact of the matter is, anything with over 500 horse has "brute force" Turbo or not, power is power.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough. A horsepower is a horsepower is a horsepower. I was characterizing the torquier nature of American engines.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR> First , the Japanese "performance car movement" was started by British influence. The S211 Datsun Fairlady is proof of that.
The Japanese performance car started out as a well rounded car, not Muscle, as you so put it. There is much more substance to a Japanese car, they handle, are more refined, and still fast. remember, during the early 1970's datsun's then new Z car dominated, rally, circuit, and other various venuse of the racing world. True, not brute force, as these were SPORTS cars, not mearly big motors, stuffed into a car body, with a truck frame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True enough there too. Fast, but not AS fast as the muscle cars....but definitely a more well mannered car.....and the Americans ate up the Z nearly as much as they did the muscle cars....you can still find thousands of them today. My dad has told me stories about the anticipation of its arrival and the waitlist to get one. Read my last statement: I was never knocking the Japanese culture; I was defending the American one. BTW I don't know of any muscle cars that rode on a truck frame...unless you are counting the El Camino or Ranchero.

And please don't forget, sports car had their space in America, too: The Chevrolet Corvette, the original Thunderbird...now the Dodge Viper...all for much cheaper than the exotics. They just weren't as cheap for average joe consumer who wants to go fast as "[a] big motor, stuffed into a car body"...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>
Contrary to popular belief, a car with power that kicks in late is much easier to control, as the torque of a V8 will induce PLENTY of wheel spin. These are my own experiences, so there may be exceptions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nothing that some wider tires will help fix... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif...I agree about the control issue....but it also takes time to get into that range, time where the V8 has already hit its horsepower peak. (assuming same power levels for both engines) That's power that will get you out of a turn quicker than a turbo will. And remember...you can turbo/supercharge a V8 just as easily as you can an I6....The Lingenfelter LS1 twin turbo makes 650 without even breaking a sweat. It may have "brute force" but it is as docile as a lamb until you hammer the pedal.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>
As for bone stock cars, if you want a Chevy Camaro, or a Ford, get one, dollar for dollar, they are a bad investment. Why? Build quality, resale, un refined, I could go on and on. Most people buy their car as a complete package, not just brute force. Is 300 horse really brute force?? That's a little funny to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I wasn't endorsing the sale of Camaros or their reliability...I was just pointing out that if power matters more to you than whether you've got an odd squeak or rattle, then they are offered here in America right alongside the Japanese imports that are constructed better but have smaller power levels. And you can't find that bang for buck in Japan, or Europe, or most anywhere (I think Australia's got the Holden, so its a pretty good bargain.) I was accentuating the fact that the American culture DOES put emphasis on performance, albeit in a different vein than the Japanese. And 300 hp is a lot of brute force from a stock car, anyway you cut it. Especially when you look at the fact an Acura NSX only comes with 290 with a standard (and only 252 with an automatic!) I agree, man, the Japanese build a better car, and that's why I drive a 1997 240SX SE (my second 240)....again, read my last statement: build quality, efficiency, and handling matter MORE to me than simply a horsepower rating. And I'd MUCH rather have and NSX than a Camaro, and, just to be different, possibly a Corvette (if a corvette wasn't a better performer at half the expensive as the NSX).

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>I have respect for domestic cars, especially the Turbo 6 of the Buicks. Those by far have the most potential in my book.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah...I'm a fan of those as well...too bad they don't them anymore... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif



[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 10-24-2000).]

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ekisela:
In the reference to all show no go, as you so put it, it was a reference to imports as a majority here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed!...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

when he said truck frame, i figured he was just talking about body on frame vehicles in general (aka "real cars" http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif).

a viper is an exotic, and is priced as such. it's just an unrefined exotic http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif

if low end torque is too much for a driver, then give them a civic and i'll take their car, regear it as necessary, and drive it right! http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif you don't drive with a playstation controller, the gas pedal isn't just off/on. driving is a skill. the only stock vehicle that even comes close to breaking loose on every start is a viper, and guess what... you can get rolling by working the clutch. or you can start in second. or you can start in third. if you were talking about strong launches... i don't *want* people on the road who go into uncontrollable burnouts at every stoplight.

you guys do know that the engine under the turbo in an old grand national is still available, right? the 3800 is alive and well, it's even still available blown (supercharged rather than turbo, but hey). if anything, a new one with a rebuilt turbo should be stronger, more efficient, and more reliable than an old one.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

To quote Slack00: "....again, read my last statement: build quality, efficiency, and handling matter MORE to me than simply a horsepower rating."

Absolutely! The easiest thing to fix on a car is horsepower. As soon as I dusted my '90 240SX SE after two years of moneyless ownership, I felt there was unfinished business - besides a K&N straight replacement air filter (bought more for the re-usability than the performance...), it was bone stock. So I got a '92 SE as a replacement. For a few bucks more, I could have gotten a base Z32 I was looking at...but I'd really like to see the S13 platform under me with some power!

BTW, I know I'm way off subject here, but I've heard that the Z32 VG30 NA can be re-cammed for about 50 extra hp. Is that true? It'd have to be a lot to justify buying four cam's...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

First, I can't believe that (almost)evertime I post something on freshalloy, there's a dispute. I am not a confrontaional type of person, but it seems to end this way.

I have some history, I am not 18, 19, 20, or even 25, and just got a car because it was cool. I have had 20 cars, all different ranges, but most definatly ALL can be classified as sports car. My dad had a Datsun 1000 sports, RX 3 and a Datsun 510. I remember helping him on car maintenance. My wife never had a chance.

I talk from experience, and not from playing a game. And YES, the throttle of a car can be VERY on and off, such in the case of my own personal GTR. Off the line, there is no lag, no waiting, it's all there. Has anyone that has commented on "brute force" actually driven a car that scares you?

Is there lag in the GTR from 1000~4500, yes, but at 4500~ it is at 8500 in a blink. It is not a common occurence for people to floor it at 3000 rpm any way, that is what downshifting is for.

To reply to your, "easier to control" use a Honda motor? Can I ask you what have you driven with more bolt ons? Have you raced rally, gymkhana, drifting street? I was drifting before that was cool. It's cheap. My first car was a A175A Lancer Turbo.

Pauli, have you driven a Viper? How about anything really modified? I don't thik so.

I also don't like body on frame, I like the unibody. It's a much better set up.

I think what was reffered to as a muscle car, put of on the AVERAGE of 14 second 1/4 miles. Today's Camaro is MUCH more of a muscle car. BTW, modified, the Z cars, naturally aspirated can run high 11's in the 1/4 mile. Don't denounce the L motors, they are the "muscle" of Japan.

Like I said, I have been fortunate, and am still very much so. I have lived in Japan, and California most of my life. I went to college in Florida. I have worked in Texas, Florida, California, Oregon, and Washington state. I am also a "street scene" nut, I grew up watching the races, and continue to do so. I am well aware of the cultural differences on both the east and west, at least to where I have been.

I am not an expert, by any means. I don't like getting put down, that is not what these posts are about. I invite anyone, to take anythihng we say on this board and e mail me: ekisela@hotmail.com.

I recieve a lot of eamil from this service, and have given good advise. I don't know everything, but I have had a few experiences. I am all about Japanese cars, can you blame me? I read and write both english and japanese, so if there is something, car related, that needs translating I can do that as well.

Eric

[**DONOTDELETE**]

hey, calm down. i don't know about you, but i'm sitting in front of a computer posting on a message board with people all over the planet. these discussions are bench racing. people are expressing their opinions, not actually chasing you down with hot pokers. i don't know if you were aiming at me or not, but just in case anything i have said has been misconstrued, i'm not trying to put anyone else, their car, their knowledge, their opinions, or their culture down. if anything i post seems like flamebait, then realize that i'm posting in good fun, and i'm here because i'm interested in a good debate, and learning.

now, wrt to the comment about putting people in civics: i was using them to represent the opposite extreme from a torque monster. you aren't going to argue with *that* characterization, are you? http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif

it seems that your car is a handful, but it's the way you want it, and you're capable of handling it. that's cool. i'm not trying to mess with you about that. what i'm saying about throttle is, i don't know of anything in the US market (the only one i can talk about while even pretending to be an authority) that doesn't have a decent amount of pedal travel. hell, most cars have extra slack in the cable.

i just can't quite agree with the idea that lack of low end torque amounts to a good thing in any way, shape, or form.

remember: this is all just my opinion.

oh, and i probably should have used a semicolon rather than a colon for the smiley when i was talking about full frame vehicles. it would have been a little less confrontational http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif

(obligatory barb just to bug you if you don't take it as a joke: real cars have more cylinders than gears.)

[This message has been edited by pauli (edited 10-24-2000).]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

HAHA,

It's a, fact that this is the internet, and it is difficult to convey a message, through text, with the right emotions. I wasn't feeling attacked, by any means, but as you say, I have my opinions.

I love all cars, but I hate misinformation. In saying that, it's ok to be wrong, and express your opinion. I just like opinions to be based off first hand knowledge, not what has been read.

I am ok on the Skyline and the Hi lux for gears/cyl ratio.

I am not there on my Starlet turbos, and my AE 86.

HAHA.

Does 300 hosepower in a 1700lbs shell count as a sports car?? It's got more drama than Days of our lives.

Eric

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pauli:


you guys do know that the engine under the turbo in an old grand national is still available, right? the 3800 is alive and well, it's even still available blown (supercharged rather than turbo, but hey). if anything, a new one with a rebuilt turbo should be stronger, more efficient, and more reliable than an old one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, the 3800 is a very successful engine still in production, and supercharged in the Buick Regal GS applicaiton; I was speaking of the turbo specifically.

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ekisela:

I think what was reffered to as a muscle car, put of on the AVERAGE of 14 second 1/4 miles. Today's Camaro is MUCH more of a muscle car. BTW, modified, the Z cars, naturally aspirated can run high 11's in the 1/4 mile. Don't denounce the L motors, they are the "muscle" of Japan.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey man, I'm still talking bone stock....you bring in modified cars and that's a whole 'nother can of worms. 11's are not impressive to modified American domestic cars, even back in 1965. (And I'm not denouncing the L motor; I'm, a big fan of them, too). And 14's is still pretty impressive for the boat-anchor heavy cars of the 1960's and 1970's. What was the bone stock L series car pulling? I think it was in the 15's or 16's, at least.

And, in terms of characterization, I think the older cars are more "muscle" in nature because they carry less creature comforts, carbeuration, and crude handling. Modern Camaros pull a good skipad and slalom rating, are fuel injected, and use OBD-II. But the burly exhaust note, and muscle-car heritage is still there.

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pauli:
...i'm sitting in front of a computer posting on a message board with people all over the planet. these discussions are bench racing. people are expressing their opinions, not actually chasing you down with hot pokers. i don't know if you were aiming at me or not, but just in case anything i have said has been misconstrued, i'm not trying to put anyone else, their car, their knowledge, their opinions, or their culture down. if anything i post seems like flamebait, then realize that i'm posting in good fun, and i'm here because i'm interested in a good debate, and learning.
...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto!...

I'm a fan of AUTOMOBILES in general, and my vote goes to the best contender. I feel the Japanese make a better car (and so does the rest of America), but I feel it is necessarry to point out the strengths of the American car market througout its history.

..and I'm here for a good discussion, just like everybody else. If we all agreed, nobody would have anything to talk about, or anything to learn!...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ekisela:
...It's a, fact that this is the internet, and it is difficult to convey a message, through text, with the right emotions. I wasn't feeling attacked, by any means, but as you say, I have my opinions.

I love all cars, but I hate misinformation. In saying that, it's ok to be wrong, and express your opinion. I just like opinions to be based off first hand knowledge, not what has been read...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BTW we like to pick at you because you do seem to know what you are talking about. (thats a compliment... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif) I don't waste my time with kids who aren't worth the keystrokes; I feel you are a peer, and by all means I hope you feel you are being treated like one.

[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 10-25-2000).]

[Nismo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ekisela:
First, I can't believe that (almost)evertime I post something on freshalloy, there's a dispute.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Stick around long enough and you'll recognize the quibblers--their talent for arguing miniscule points is unquestioned. Do stick around though, I enjoy reading most of your posts. Of course, I have to disagree with you when you said that...
http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/wink.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

I'll stick around....I've got nothing better to do, haha. I work in the states, so I am all alone in a hotel, hardly ever in the same place. Can you hear my violin. That is why I wreak havoc on my cars when I get to drive them. As a matter of fact, the R is in the shop now, hicas/power steering , and speedo cable.

I get to go home again in thangsgiving, so I'll break something else, I am sure. They are always small things though. That is the reason I am also into Starlets, haha. I have 2, although one is going to my younger brother, the TD 04 one. I have to keep the K 26 turboed one. I still have the AE 86, rusted POS, it's has a S?C out of a MR2 though, a maf one http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif. that's ok, that's going to my other younger bro in 2 years, when he's 18.

Nismo, you're funny!!

I do have to disagree with 11's not being fast in the 60's. I went to a Drag racing meseum in Lake city, or Gainsville, the fastest drag,car was like 11.5 or something like that. Hey, a 12.01 car is pretty damn fast!!! I also had a 1990 Talon AWD in college, just with a 16G, modified maf, ported matched head, and bored up 1MM (necessitated by blowing a coolant line on the interstate, THE DAY I BOUGHT IT!!) Not anything special, boost 1.5 bar, about 22 PSI, ran a 12.86 @ 109. That felt pretty fast. Then again, my friend has a T88 2.7 liter BNR32, that's just scary, forget that sh_t!! Worse than a roller coaster!! I am happy with my tiny (by comparison)turbos...for now.

[shaun]

personally, i disagree with the feats that american cars have made. i mean so what that a camaro ss has 320 horses? its also a 5.7l v8...the new q45 i know isnt a sports car but its a 4.5 liter v8 and its supposed to have what 340 horses naturally aspirated...it just goes to show u that japanese cars do more out of less...i have a lot of respect for the people that design these japanese engines...especially the honda s2000. i mean who would've ever heard of getting 240 horses out of a naturally aspirated 2.0L four??? anyways...i just wanted to say something and i cant really think of anything else...so i guess im done

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shaun:
personally, i disagree with the feats that american cars have made. i mean so what that a camaro ss has 320 horses? its also a 5.7l v8...the new q45 i know isnt a sports car but its a 4.5 liter v8 and its supposed to have what 340 horses naturally aspirated...it just goes to show u that japanese cars do more out of less...i have a lot of respect for the people that design these japanese engines...especially the honda s2000. i mean who would've ever heard of getting 240 horses out of a naturally aspirated 2.0L four??? anyways...i just wanted to say something and i cant really think of anything else...so i guess im done<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No doubt that is impressive. But Infiniti doesn't put that engine in a $20,000 Nissan now do they? And Honda...well..they've got a 2.0L engine in a $40,000 roadster (which is a good pair-up; I'm just saying its expensive). BTW the Corvette LS6 engine is 5.7L and 385 hp. And 30/20mpg hwy/street. Not bad for a pushrod, non-variable valve anything, wouldn't ya say?

Secondly, I believe the Domestics can make an excellent engine. They have built plenty, in various concept cars and in racing circuits, just to prove they can. But they don't make them for production, because....well....they weren't made for production. Ford Racing's CART/Indy engine is as highly respected as Honda's or anybody elses...

While I agree that foreign engines, on average, are built better than the domestics, I would like to point out that three (I don't count the DiamlerChrysler engine) domestic engines are on Wards 10 Best Engines list. And one of the things they mention is quality(!). Also, horsepower per liter does not an engine make. Again, domestics have the advantage in the fact that they are all torquier than their Japanese rivals. That's a consequence of displacement size.

So I wouldn't be blow off domestics just yet. Both foreign and domestic have their strengths.

If I were to hang out at a Chevy forum and they were ragging on import engines, I'd be sticking up for them just as vehemently.

[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 10-26-2000).]

[Nismo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>No doubt that is impressive. But Infiniti doesn't put that engine in a $20,000 Nissan now do they? And Honda...well..they've got a 2.0L engine in a $40,000 roadster (which is a good pair-up; I'm just saying its expensive).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Guess it's my turn to quibble...
I was just at the dealer talking to the salesman about buying one a few weeks ago and rest assured that--at least in Louisiana--Honda's roadster does not cost $40,000. MSRP is $32,000 and the sticker price on both of the S2000 convertibles I considered was $35,000. If anyone can buy a new Camaro SS convertible (or even a coupe) for $20,000 I'd like to know what dealer is offering. MSRP is $33,275 for a base model, and if you want to add options--leather, CD, etc.--it'll cost you more.

If a point is to be made, let it be made with real facts and not Al Gore-style exaggerated facts. On that note I should probably mention that the new 2001 Corvette's fuel economy is a nice achievement--especially considering the car's capabilities--but it gets 19/28mpg city/hwy, not 20/30. Wow, a nearly 10% improvement in fuel economy just from fudging the numbers... you sure you're not on staff over at Gore campaign headquarters.

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

wrt Japanese engines getting more out of less is due to a fact that any American's have to deal with in the States.

Most American tend to forget that overseas, there's a yearly road tax placed on their vehicle. This tax usually puts a damper on the engine displacement. The larger the engine, the more expensive. I've also seen where HP and vehicle weight comes into play. That gets $$$$ fast.

Because of that, a 2.0L is considered middle class. Most if not all middle class family could afford a 1.8L, 2.0L or a 2.2L. Why do you think the Primera has a 1.8L or 2.0L and the Bluebird also has the 2.0L when in the US the same Bluebird/Altima has a bigger 2.4L
There's even a 520i BMW. Yes, 2.0L inline 6.

That's why straight comparison on engine size gets super complicated when comparing Japanese sports cars and US sports car... If given the oppurtunity, I'm sure the Japanese would love to build their own 5.0L... But due to reality of economics, that's not possible, unless there are lots of rich folks willing to pay Thousands of $$$$ each year on road tax...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turbo:
wrt Japanese engines getting more out of less is due to a fact that any American's have to deal with in the States.

Most American tend to forget that overseas, there's a yearly road tax placed on their vehicle. This tax usually puts a damper on the engine displacement. The larger the engine, the more expensive. I've also seen where HP and vehicle weight comes into play. That gets $$$$ fast.

Because of that, a 2.0L is considered middle class. Most if not all middle class family could afford a 1.8L, 2.0L or a 2.2L. Why do you think the Primera has a 1.8L or 2.0L and the Bluebird also has the 2.0L when in the US the same Bluebird/Altima has a bigger 2.4L
There's even a 520i BMW. Yes, 2.0L inline 6.

That's why straight comparison on engine size gets super complicated when comparing Japanese sports cars and US sports car... If given the oppurtunity, I'm sure the Japanese would love to build their own 5.0L... But due to reality of economics, that's not possible, unless there are lots of rich folks willing to pay Thousands of $$$$ each year on road tax...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah i know what you are talkiing about, especially in Italy, there is a big tax on any cars over 2.0litres, i think its like that in a few of the Euro countries.

Here in NZ though, a middle class car is considered 3.0-4.0litres.
Did you guys know that Toyota makes a 5litre V12?

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Nismo,
I'm on the same line with you as far as agreeing that the Corvette has good gas mileage. I was looking into an Lexus IS300. What I didn't like about it is that it was to slow and had horrible gas mileage(18/23mpg). What I noticed was that a 385-hp Vette had much better gas mileage. I will definitly give American cars credit in that department, except GM and Dodge. The American sports car that I have the most respect for is a vette. For the camaro, firebird and mustang they all seem to have good gas mileage compared to imports. However, imports will always shine over domestic(not including vette) because of quality and maintenance. You sure as heck don't have to buy a water pump every 6,000 miles right from when you bought it. My friend had a WS-6 firebird and it had problems galore. I didn't want to tell him,"What do you expect, it got Motortrend worst car of the year, followed by it's cousin(camaro)."

Quote: "If a point is to be made, let it be with real facts and not Al Gore-exaggerated facts," Nismo.
I have to disagree with your political affiliation. I live in Texas and George Bush has screwed up this state enough. Houston is polluted more than L.A. now. If your talking about fuzzy numbers you should know he lets Dan Quayle help him do his taxes. Texas Governor George Bush's entire presidental campaign is built on settling a score. His father lost to Bill Clinton in '92, and he's still pissed. For eight years, George Bush Senior has been seething over his loss to that smirking, two-timing two-termer, while he sits at home writing his memoirs, thinking up euphemisms for "sushi vomit." Everyone here in Texas knew it was only a matter of time before Bush Senior showed up on the parapet of Texas Governor's Mansion like a ghost from Hamlet, screaming, "Avenge me, Dubya! Avenge me!"

[Slack00]

Touche... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/blush.gif

Sorry...mea culpa... http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/frown.gif I didn't have a NAPA guide in my pocket. I had heard s2000's were going for $40k because of the limited production. Plymouth Prowlers also sticker at a modest $40,000, but I've seen them sold from $50,000 upwards of $70,000

The premium for an SS is, what, $6k? (for twenty whopping horsepower) For a convertible, add $2k-3k. (neither are worth it, in my book). The proper translation (which I failed to make) would have been the base Z-28, since an SS/convertible package costs a huge packet more. I was merely making the point that a comparable import with a hi-po engine cannot be had cheaply. A base Camaro Z-28 costs in the mid $20k range? Any way you cut it, a 300hp 5.7L V8 is a cheap bargain in a Camaro.

And as for the mpg figures, no doubt in the Camaro or Firebird application, the engine DOES get 20/30. That's the number I've always seen. But 18/28 still is pretty darn good for a 385 hp V8 engine. Looking at the same Motor Trend we seem to be reading together, the Ferrari 360 Modena makes 10 more horsepower, 110 less torque, and it gets 10/16 city/hwy. Hell, looking at another Motor Trend right here, the S2000 with a 2.0L engine gets 20/26 city/hwy....WOW! depending what angle you look at it, you can say one of two things: 1)Chevy can make a huge engine as efficient (and way more powerful!) than one less than half its size (nearly 1/3) and cylinders, or 2) Honda cannot make a fuel efficient hi-po engine. Take your pick.

Forgive me.. somebody check my math if I am all wrong about this....."the devil is in the details"....since I am obviously the quibbler you refer to I will at least try to hold myself to the same standard, eh? http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/grin.gif

[This message has been edited by Slack00 (edited 10-26-2000).]

[**DONOTDELETE**]

wrt price for performance: iirc, a z28 has the most power per dollar of anything in the us market. i believe the figure is $77/hp. not bad.

[Slack00]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turbo:
wrt Japanese engines getting more out of less is due to a fact that any American's have to deal with in the States.

Most American tend to forget that overseas, there's a yearly road tax placed on their vehicle. This tax usually puts a damper on the engine displacement. The larger the engine, the more expensive. I've also seen where HP and vehicle weight comes into play. That gets $$$$ fast.

Because of that, a 2.0L is considered middle class. Most if not all middle class family could afford a 1.8L, 2.0L or a 2.2L. Why do you think the Primera has a 1.8L or 2.0L and the Bluebird also has the 2.0L when in the US the same Bluebird/Altima has a bigger 2.4L
There's even a 520i BMW. Yes, 2.0L inline 6.

That's why straight comparison on engine size gets super complicated when comparing Japanese sports cars and US sports car... If given the oppurtunity, I'm sure the Japanese would love to build their own 5.0L... But due to reality of economics, that's not possible, unless there are lots of rich folks willing to pay Thousands of $$$$ each year on road tax...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is very true. No doubt the vehicle offerings here in the US were (are) very heavily influenced by the home market. And, for cars sold together in both markets (like the S2000) perhaps it is a little unfair to make comparisons.

However, the American companies getting less out of more is less to do with what anything Asians have to deal with in Japan. I would like to point out that, in the minds of most import companies, American regulations are considered equally draconian (if not more!), albeit in different ways. Crash testing, emissions requirements, CAFE, gas-guzzler taxes, luxury taxes, and high insurance rates are all over here in the US, equally damping the enthusiasm of domestic manufacturers.

Pehaps this is why American companies are forced to make a large engine seem crude in comparison from a horsepower/liter standpoint. I'm sure (because gas is relatively cheap here) American car companies would love to make a 600hp 5.0L V8, but due to the reality of economics, that is not possible (unless the company wants to pay $$$$ in CAFE penalties).

Of course, in Asia and Europe, some of these regulations aren't necessary when the price of fuel is $5.00/gal or more...demand simply makes manufacturers produce more efficient engines.

But, in America, Japan can make the 5.0L of their dreams. As long as they meet regulations, just like American companies.......which, for people like Honda, Toyota, and and Nissan, perhaps is a reason for why its taken so long for them to develop larger engines. Especially when they knew they had to sell a product in a country known for its propensity towards V8s. Honda's first non-four banger: 1989(!) Toyota's first V8 in a pickup truck: 1999 (i'm not sure how long it was in the Land Cruiser, but I don't think it was before 1990). Nissan....well...I confess I really don't know....was the Infiniti Q their first V8 offering?

Different companies, diffent people, different energy costs, different regulations....the politics of it all makes it really difficult to compare anyone to anyone, in terms of the capabilities of their engineers....but....for vehicles in the same market segment...... I think direct comparisons of comparable engines can be made. And in the case of roadsters....the S2000 is pretty darn impressive! I think Consumer Reports actually gave a highest sports car satisfaction rating to the S2000 (over than the Corvette!)

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

Word! Glad to see that others are putting reality into view in these sometimes useless comparison.

As for the S2000, yes, it's damn impressive, especially for a street car that's reliable...

As for the Nissan V-8, well, it was used in the Patrol, and President (1st gen Q45). Toyota has a 5.0L V12 in their Toyota Crown (President's competitor). I think the V-8 generation started in the late 80's when the Japanese economy was at it's best (prior to blowing up).

[Nismo]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by prelude98:
Nismo,... I have to disagree with your political affiliation. I live in Texas and George Bush has screwed up this...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not to get too political here, but don't worry about me voting for Dubyuh. He said it best himself when he told South Carolinians earlier this year, "If you're sick and tired of the politics of cynicism, polls, and principles, come join this campaign." Sure thing Dubyuh, I'm sick of politicans WITH principles so I'm gonna vote for you instead. Maybe when pigs fly. The Bush Tax Plan (http://207.191.68.15/drq768/BushClarification.gif)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turbo:
Word! Glad to see that others are putting reality into view in these sometimes useless comparison.

As for the S2000, yes, it's damn impressive, especially for a street car that's reliable...

As for the Nissan V-8, well, it was used in the Patrol, and President (1st gen Q45). Toyota has a 5.0L V12 in their Toyota Crown (President's competitor). I think the V-8 generation started in the late 80's when the Japanese economy was at it's best (prior to blowing up).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Toyota Century is the only car the V12 is fitted to, the Crown only goes up to 4.0 V8, was the VH45DE also used in the Patrol? It's not used in the current GU range and it wasn't used in the GQ either, do u mean the really old model ones? just curious

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

Well, Crown Century... (still an ugly car by any luxuary standard). Did you see the new retro Crown? It has suicide doors for the backseat (reversed hinged). It actually looked like an early Toyota sedan on the outside. The interior is super modern, if you can call an Avalon interior modern.

As for the Patrol, I'm probably talking out of my behind as I'm trying to distract myself from work because it's a lousy Friday at work... And I wasn't infering that the VH45DE was in the patrol. I vaguely remember some sort of big diesel engine but can't recall them in my current mental state...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

this might seem a little of topic but in my opinion which really doesn't mean anything. I think that rally cars are the best sports cars in the world. You all can say that my be a little weak in the power dept. but I don't see a Lambo running on an rally courses ok
thats all I had to say

[**DONOTDELETE**]

it's worth noting that lamborghinis aren't exactly designed for rally courses.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

to the first message at the top:

all time performance cars? show me a lambo doing low 8s in the quarter

Veilside has a badass skyline, so does the owner of that company... let's see there's Apexi', etc, etc, etc...

maybe stock off the showroom floor; but the RB series motor has more potential than all of them... thats why you see a 1000hp skyline on every cover of every NIRA-type magazine... the RB series motor is iron i believe http://forums.freshalloy.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif

now i'd rather have the new Z as all-aluminum... unless Nissan can make the car weigh 2600lbs with an iron block...
why? because this won't be my drag-race car... i may slap a T04E ball bearing turbo on it; but nothing super major; if i can run low 11s with it; i'll stop there... because this will be my car i just go have fun with...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Low 11's, and it won't be a drag car?? Low 11's is mighty quick for a street car. I don't think people really understand what a low 11 second car feels like, and how much traction and power is needed.

E

[240ofTerrorr]

actually, it's not 3000 HP for a top fuel dragster... it's 6000 hp... and thats "computed" hp based on fuel consumption, thermal efficiency, etc... theres no dyno capable of bolting those engines up to (courtesy of Discover magazine, a couple months ago, cover story i believe)

-=AaRoN=-

[VQuick]

One thing I didn't see mentioned was that Nissan is trying hard to move up to the next level by offering the VQ. A lot of people think that the VQ is just a 'grocery getter' engine, but they're wrong. The VQ has a racing pedigree, just like the RB. The VQ was originally designed as an NA screamer fora touring series in Germany. The series was cancelled before it began, so Nissan started using the VQs in production cars sometime later. The VQs are still being used in motorsports however. In Southern Europe, there is a Formula racing series that uses a VQ30DE making 410hp.

What even fewer people may know is that the VQ has been offered with a turbo for years over in JDM land. The VQ25DET used in the Stagea is the weakest variant, weighing in with 276hp just like the RB. The VQ30DET is used in the Cedric and Gloria, and who knows how much power it really has. A VQ35DETT will have blistering performance, for sure. Making over 400hp will be child's play, considering a Maxima owner with a turbocharged VQ30DE made over 370fwhp with less than 10psi. Oh yeah, he was only starting with 190hp at the crank.http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif

Nissan has other reasons for using the VQ. The VQ is a more compact engine. An engine with smaller dimensions lets you use a smaller engine bay; a smaller engine bay means a shorter chassis and less front overhang; that means a weight saving in the end, because you've actually got less car. Not to mention the savings from using the aluminum-block VQ over the iron-block RB.

Since the VQ is shorter, you can also move the engine farther back in the chassis for better weight distribution. That was the whole idea of the FM platform. Even with the nose heavy R34 chassis, the JGTC drivers who used the VQ-powered cars reported that handling had increased significantly. With a chassis made for a shorter engine, handling will be even better.

I will admit that the RB will definitely be missed for it's tunability. The VQ defnitely can't handle as much power as the RB, no matter what. However, tuning isn't Nissan's problem. Sales is, however, and Nissan is trying to have a more potent offering from the factory. Having a more potent car off the showroom floor than the competition is what will get Nissan sales, especailly in the U.S. Nissan doesn't get much if any money from tuning, so the aftermarket will have to worry about that.

Oh, and on the technology vs. displacement thing: Yeah, they have their own merits, but look what at happens when you put them together! You get great cars like the Corvette ZR-1 with it's 405hp DOHC aluminum block V8 that was 350ci. That engine is well over 10 years old, and is still one of GM's most potent engines. I'm still waiting for when GM wakes up and puts a newer DOHC V8 in a 'Vette, maybe even with variable timing. Can you say "VTEC 'Vette?"