Why pay MSRP because it is a new car? [Archive]

**DONOTDELETE**

02-15-2002, 12:59 PM

Every business would like to have customers that don't care what price they are paying for products. Car prices are negotiable in most cases, so why should a customer come in and agree to the first offer. It would be very easy for dealerships to offer no haggle prices like Carmax does but they choose not to. That's because MSRP is more than a car's worth in most cases and the dealership makes extra profit off people paying MSRP. It more than makes up for the small profits they make on customers that negotiate down to less than MSRP. I guarantee you that dealerships don't lose money on any of the deals they make unless they've done a poor job of estimating demand and have ordered vehicles that will sit on the lot forever. The dealerships also have to offer negotiable prices because they are competing with other dealers and need to have flexibility in a fast changing market. Why do you think there are so many dealerhips around to compete with? They are making good money so don't act like the consumer is ripping off car dealerships by wanting to negotiate.

Afty

02-15-2002, 09:15 PM

Because supply is limited and demand is high. Same thing happened with the Altima when it came out. If you want to deal on a hot new car, you're going to have to wait a few months until supplies build up and demand goes down.

Here's my personal story on this topic. Back in September I wanted to buy a new Altima. Went to one dealer who lied to me and told me Nissan wasn't allowing them to sell the Altima below MSRP for 6 months. When I told them I would not pay sticker for the Altima, they laughed at me and I walked. Waited a month, went to a different dealer, and got an Altima equipped exactly how I wanted for $2k below MSRP. Moral of the story? Good things come to those who wait.

Jhapa

02-16-2002, 01:25 PM

Even if you paid invoice for your car, the dealer does not loose any money. the dealers gets incentives for the number of cars sold, so more cars sold, more money they get from the manufacturers. it would be the sales-scums who would be taking home less cash at the end of the day. I have read and talked to many people that the person to talk to is really the fleet managers since they are actually salaried, unlike sales managers or sales scums. so any money the fleet managers make is pocket money for him.

P.S.: For anybody living in San Antonio area, DO NOT BUY any vehicles from Gilliespie Ford, I know nobody from this forum will but might know friends or family, they will F..K your A.. and don't give the curtesy of a reach around. had a friend got screwed over big and he and his parents(cosigner) are debating on legal actions. basically fraudulent sales(my legal interpretation). images/icons/tongue.gif

[ 02-16-2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Jhapa ]

**DONOTDELETE**

02-16-2002, 05:35 PM

on the subject of new car buying. I live in the Tampa Bay area, and I getting ready to buy an Altima. I'm dealing with my credit union, and they seem to be able to swing the best deals by far. They do so much financing, they are able to get the best deals on the cars. I'm using the internet to try and find the best price, but the car loan officer at the credit union was able to save me the time of hunting, and immediately pulled up the best offers on the car I was interested in.
The best offers on any car can be gotten by the most educated buyers. Information is your best weapon. Dealers hate an educated buyer.
I am finding local Nissan dealers very motivated selling the Altimas. They want my business bad. Best deal so far on a 3.5 SE automatic----invoice plus $299. Not bad I think.
And for once in my life--I'm working the dealers against each other--they better start doing some serious price cuts. I'm actually enjoying the process for once.
My overriding thought on the whole experience--educate yourself, and KNOW what the dealers actual cost of the vehicle is--not just what the dealer invoice is--big difference. Nissan dealer holdback on an Altima is 3%. Thats over $700 on a 3.5 SE automatic. So if he sells at invoice--he still makes over $700. Don't let them poormouth you--educate yourself. images/icons/grin.gif

Afty

02-18-2002, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by green:
Nissan dealer holdback on an Altima is 3%. Thats over $700 on a 3.5 SE automatic. So if he sells at invoice--he still makes over $700.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]This isn't entirely true. The amount the dealer makes on holdback depends on how long the car has been on the lot. Basically, the longer the car sits on the lot, the less of the holdback the dealer gets to keep.

Look here for a better explanation:
http://www.edmunds.com/advice/static/html/43090/article.html#8

Another thing to remember is that 99% of car salesmen will not negotiate into holdback. If you're talking holdback with them, they know they're not making any commission on the deal (because they don't get paid on holdback) and will most likely drop you right there.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-18-2002, 04:44 AM

ALL THE RESPONSES I'M READING ARE THE EXACT REASONS WHY I LEFT NISSAN SALES ALL THE EDUCATED BUYERS AND THOSE WHO KNEW ABOUT HOLDBACK AND INVOICE WERE THE CONSUMERS WE LET WALK AROUND THE SHOWROOM CAUSE WE DIDN'T WANT TO HELP THEM BECAUSE IN THE END THE DEALERS MAKE MONEY REGARDLESS AND THE SALESMAN GET LEFT WITH NOTHING PLUS I WAS TO HONEST OF A PERSON TO SALE CARS I SUCKED FOR REAL . BUT TO ALL THOSE DRIVING NISSANS AND INFINITI'S YOUR THE MOST FORTUNATE AUTOMOBILE OWNERS IN THE WORLD BELIEVE THAT.HOLLA images/icons/grin.gif

**DONOTDELETE**

02-21-2002, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by JD:
Every business would like to have customers that don't care what price they are paying for products. Car prices are negotiable in most cases, so why should a customer come in and agree to the first offer. It would be very easy for dealerships to offer no haggle prices like Carmax does but they choose not to. That's because MSRP is more than a car's worth in most cases and the dealership makes extra profit off people paying MSRP. It more than makes up for the small profits they make on customers that negotiate down to less than MSRP. I guarantee you that dealerships don't lose money on any of the deals they make unless they've done a poor job of estimating demand and have ordered vehicles that will sit on the lot forever. The dealerships also have to offer negotiable prices because they are competing with other dealers and need to have flexibility in a fast changing market. Why do you think there are so many dealerhips around to compete with? They are making good money so don't act like the consumer is ripping off car dealerships by wanting to negotiate.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]In the USA i guess that you can try to shop all the prices and offers that are infront of you as a custemor but he has to feed his family too. and further more in imports there is not a hugh mark up in prices like there are in the domestic cars. Thats is a common myth about the car bussiness. I sell these nissan products and there is no mark up in the price. Nissan Canada does not mark there cars up just to mark them down. Why play that game. Find the car that is right and buy it.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-21-2002, 01:23 PM

So, you sell cars at invoice. Dealerships have to mark up cars to make a profit. Now sometimes they can sell certain cars at invoice or below due to manufacturer incentives or because they are selling hotter cars at bigger markups.

As far as domestics being marked up more than imports, that may be true in Canada but not in the US. Look at the MSRP and invoice prices for an Impala and a Maxima. The Maxima has a higher percentage markup over invoice than the Impala. These are US based prices that I got from edmunds.com.

Salesmen do have to feed their families, but so does everybody else in this world. Why should I give him an extra break over anyone else? If a salesman can't offer me a fair price on a car and somebody down the road can, the guy obviously isn't doing a very good job. I don't run a charity.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-28-2002, 09:07 PM

Well if you believe everything that is said in the lemonaid guide then so be it. Some people see it as the gosple and it is wrong. And well I will ask you this. With Toyats fixed prices would you still ask for money off the price? When you go to the grocery store do you tell them that you want money off a jug of milk??

**DONOTDELETE**

02-28-2002, 09:33 PM

Toyota's don't have fixed prices in the US. I sat in the salesman's office while my Dad negotiated prices on a brand new Toyota at one time. Cars at dealerships (except Carmax) are negotiable. Milk jugs at the grocery store are not negotiable. If you want to sell cars at a take it or leave it, fixed price more power to you. I would love to buy cars at a fair price without having to negotiate but that is not the way the business works. That would create some fierce competition in the market and I fear that many salesmen would lose their jobs due to smaller profits.

**DONOTDELETE**

03-04-2002, 02:42 PM

Well if you think that Imports mark the prices up just to mark them down you are wronge. The people that ruin it are the GM ford chev people as they have thousands of dollers of mark up in those cars. You know hwat I make on a sentra? A little over 200. That is it. The reson why fixed pricing works is because the dealerships have to stick to their guns. In Canada Toyota has fixed pricing. Do you think that the sales are down on them? Nope. As a matter of fact our Toyota dealership sells more cars then we do because of it. So if people are looking for a discounted car maybe they should look at a private sale and not give the salesmen a hard time over price. Besides most of the prices are fair no? Which ones do you think are unfair?

**DONOTDELETE**

03-07-2002, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Mac:
Well if you believe everything that is said in the lemonaid guide then so be it. Some people see it as the gosple and it is wrong. And well I will ask you this. With Toyats fixed prices would you still ask for money off the price? When you go to the grocery store do you tell them that you want money off a jug of milk??<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]I agree that you don't negotiate the price of a jug of milk. But if you know that the store two blocks over sells that same jug of milk for 10-15 cents less, why wouldn't you go buy it there. The store buys the jug of milk for a certain amount and then marks up the price. Same thing for cars, the dealer pays x amount then marks up the price. Why? For profit. The store 2 blocks over is still marking up the price, but not as much as the first one so you buy where it's cheaper (less profit for the store, but profit none the less).

A few words of advice: Haggle until you get the best price you can knowing that the dealer/salesperson will still make a profit. Remember, they don't starve/eat based on your sale alone, they make many sales in any given amount of time and they still get paid, not as much as if they sold 1000 cars vs 100 cars but they still get paid.

Also, look for dealers that have high sales numbers on a monthly basis, they usually get more incentives for selling high volumes of cars.

If the car isn't in high demand (just released) wait a while and the price will come down.

Good things do come to those who wait.

Mark F

04-19-2002, 03:54 PM

Supply and demand determines car prices. If a particular car is hot and in short supply there is no reason to discount it for one person, if there is someone else standing right behind them that will pay all the money for it. If the supply is good and demand is not so high, it is possible to get the car for less. Simple market economics folks. It's how much less that is the problem.

As an example, four-five years ago on a $21,000 Mitsubishi Galant we had about $2,500 markup between invoice and MSRP. I could discount the car $1,000 and still make OK but not great money for myself. That would come out to 25% of the $1,100 or so "payable" that would be left after various fees and other costs are taken out - or about $275 in my pocket for selling a $21k product. Multiply that by say, 12-14 cars per month on average, then ask me if I eat Filet Mignon on a regular basis.

Today the markup on a $21,000 Galant is about $1,300 - roughly half what it was 5 years ago - but people still expect at least that $1,000 (or usually double that) discount because that is what they are used to. Now on that same car I make a $100 "mini" (minimum commission) because 25% of $300 over invoice isn't worth mentioning. Ask me the Filet Mignon question again.

Nissan's have a little bit more markup but its not huge and the trend outlined above is the same. Personally I think Nissan's deserve more markup because they are better cars but since I sell both I should really shut up about that now.

Where were we...

Where the real savings is today is in the financing. On many cars the factories are offering truly silly rates these days. That $21k Galant has 1.9% financing for 60 months today, five years ago you'd be looking at 8-9%. But people are still looking for huge discounts because that's the way it has always been. Personally, I always try to sell the car first, then the savings from the incentive programs - which is a lot more than they can save if I discount the car a few hundred dollars. It works surprisingly often which is nice because it allows me to pay my mortgage on time. Also, even though I didn't believe it when I started in the business it is absolutely true that those who pay the most are the happiest and provide the most referrals and repeat business. Ever notice how happy and loyal Saturn customers are (we call in the Saturn cult in the business)? Every one of them pays full sticker and they couldn't be happier about "the deal" they got. I guarantee you too that there is a lot more markup (as a % of invoice) in a $15k Saturn than there is in the aforementioned $21k Galant. It's not really about the price, its about the perception of value. The car business is one of perceptions, not absolutes.

The factory BTW can not dictate what price a dealer charges (speaking of Saturn I don't know how they get away with one-price). Anyone who tells you "the factory says we have to charge MSRP and can't discount" is full of crap and doesn't deserve your business.

If you pay invoice for a car is the dealer losing money? Maybe. They are certainly not making any. There is holdback which is explained on the link provided above and on our example Galant is something like $5-600 IIRC. Not huge. There is also sometimes trunk money or a delivery bonus, but these often only apply in special circumstances. All of this has to cover things like the $50-100 the service department charges the new car department for detailing the car for delivery, the $100 mini the salesperson will make, advertising costs, your complimentary tank of gas, interest paid on the vehicle while it was on the lot, the managers commission, the F&I managers commission, keeping the lights and heat/AC on, etc. I can't think of any other business where people would consider $600 "profit" on a $21,000 product to be fair. I can't think of any consumer item that at MSRP has less markup in it than a new car (wanna really get screwed, buy a piece of jewelry - 300% markup as opposed to 5-10% in a new car).

And all of that explains why car dealers have to steal your trade - but that's a different topic.

I'm curious BTW how Afty got an Altima for $2k under MSRP since there isn't that much markup in the car, even in a fully loaded 3.5SE.

shmivel

04-20-2002, 12:27 PM

Mark F, I thought your views, from someone on the inside were very interesting and I think reflect the thoughts of most people in your business, as opposed to the stereotype that some in here like to bash. I think most people do not enjoy negotiating, however, in the car business, its almost expected. When I was younger, I hated buying cars from a dealer because I always felt that I left something on the table at the end of the day. Even if I got a reasonable deal, I was programmed to think the sales guy took me. Saturn plays on this by taking the negotiating step out of the process. You're right, no doubt, that buyers are paying sticker price for Saturns and not caring. Is there something to be learned from this? Frankly, when I purchased my G35, I was not expecting a discount as the car was new and hot, so when I asked for something off, I was surprised the salesman accommodated without hesitation. Bottom line, the G35 is a great buy, even at sticker, when considering how it stacks up against the competition, so I'm a happy consumer. I still think that the Service Manager at my Infiniti dealer will determine if I buy another one, not the salesman.

JerryG

04-20-2002, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Mark F:

I'm curious BTW how Afty got an Altima for $2k under MSRP since there isn't that much markup in the car, even in a fully loaded 3.5SE.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]I admit I didn't read this entire thread; I assume we're talking US dollars here.

If you look at Edmunds.com, the markup on a 3.5SE Altima is $2100 BEFORE options. So, naturally, when you add options it's going to be even more.

So, assuming this is correct, I don't really understand the comment.

Mark F

04-21-2002, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by JerryG:
<blockquote><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Originally posted by Mark F:

I'm curious BTW how Afty got an Altima for $2k under MSRP since there isn't that much markup in the car, even in a fully loaded 3.5SE.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]I admit I didn't read this entire thread; I assume we're talking US dollars here.

If you look at Edmunds.com, the markup on a 3.5SE Altima is $2100 BEFORE options. So, naturally, when you add options it's going to be even more.

So, assuming this is correct, I don't really understand the comment.<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]The invoice's at Edmunds or KBB don't reflect the actual invoice price the dealer paid and they even tell you that. Nobody reads that part but yes they do tell you that.

Mark F

04-21-2002, 02:26 AM

Originally posted by shmivel:
Mark F, I thought your views, from someone on the inside were very interesting and I think reflect the thoughts of most people in your business, as opposed to the stereotype that some in here like to bash. I think most people do not enjoy negotiating, however, in the car business, its almost expected. When I was younger, I hated buying cars from a dealer because I always felt that I left something on the table at the end of the day. Even if I got a reasonable deal, I was programmed to think the sales guy took me. Saturn plays on this by taking the negotiating step out of the process. You're right, no doubt, that buyers are paying sticker price for Saturns and not caring. Is there something to be learned from this? Frankly, when I purchased my G35, I was not expecting a discount as the car was new and hot, so when I asked for something off, I was surprised the salesman accommodated without hesitation. Bottom line, the G35 is a great buy, even at sticker, when considering how it stacks up against the competition, so I'm a happy consumer. I still think that the Service Manager at my Infiniti dealer will determine if I buy another one, not the salesman.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]I said it before and I'll say it again, the car business is all about perception, not absolutes. I've had plenty of customers pay invoice for a car, convinced they were getting screwed and I know they will never buy another car from me or send friends/relatives/aquantances to buy one from me either. Then I've had other people pay MSRP who are so thrilled they come back a week later to buy me a beer, refer their friends to me and so on. I firmly believe that the amount a person pays for the car has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not they got a "good deal".

JerryG

04-22-2002, 03:23 AM

Originally posted by Mark F:
The invoice's at Edmunds or KBB don't reflect the actual invoice price the dealer paid and they even tell you that. Nobody reads that part but yes they do tell you that.[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Yes, which means there is even more margin to work from than the invoice suggests. So, if you ignore that and just work from invoice, both parties should be on a relatively even playing field.

Or are you saying that the dealer pays "more" than what these numbers indicate?

My point is that even if you DO NOT account for the hold-back, and even if you DO NOT factor in the options mark-up, there is still well over $2K mark-up in the car (Altima 3.5SE) you used as an example. So, why would you be surprised over a $2K discount from msrp?

Second point:

Recently, my local (large) Nissan dealer advertised, in the local paper, all Nissan's priced at invoice, customers keeps any rebate; if there were excluded models in the fine print, they were not listed. (Everyone knows this doesn't apply to 350Z's, etc.)

This is a "voluntary" scenario. No one is really twisting the dealer's arm to do this...so, it must not be that bad of a transaction for them.

Mark F

04-22-2002, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by JerryG:
<blockquote><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Originally posted by Mark F:
The invoice's at Edmunds or KBB don't reflect the actual invoice price the dealer paid and they even tell you that. Nobody reads that part but yes they do tell you that.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Yes, which means there is even more margin to work from than the invoice suggests. So, if you ignore that and just work from invoice, both parties should be on a relatively even playing field.

Or are you saying that the dealer pays "more" than what these numbers indicate?

My point is that even if you DO NOT account for the hold-back, and even if you DO NOT factor in the options mark-up, there is still well over $2K mark-up in the car (Altima 3.5SE) you used as an example. So, why would you be surprised over a $2K discount from msrp?

Second point:

Recently, my local (large) Nissan dealer advertised, in the local paper, all Nissan's priced at invoice, customers keeps any rebate; if there were excluded models in the fine print, they were not listed. (Everyone knows this doesn't apply to 350Z's, etc.)

This is a "voluntary" scenario. No one is really twisting the dealer's arm to do this...so, it must not be that bad of a transaction for them.[/QB]<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]The invoice price you find on the internet sites does not include dealer association fee's, which vary from market to market (which is why you don't find them listed) but in my neck of the woods typically run about 2% of invoice.

Why would you assume Afty got a fully decked out 3.5SE. Personally, I have no idea what he's got.

BTW

Two winters ago my store did a "$100 over invoice" sale for about 3 months. The net result was that 60% of the "profit" made on these cars went just to paying the sales staffs commissions and there wasn't enough money in the budget to so much as buy a quarter-page ad in the Thursday newspaper for 6 months. It absolutely killed the store financially for the better part of a year. Another side effect was that no other dealer in the district would trade with us for months, so if it wasn't in stock or on the incoming list, we couldn't sell it.

**DONOTDELETE**

04-22-2002, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Jhapa:
Even if you paid invoice for your car, the dealer does not loose any money. the dealers gets incentives for the number of cars sold, so more cars sold, more money they get from the manufacturers. it would be the sales-scums who would be taking home less cash at the end of the day. I have read and talked to many people that the person to talk to is really the fleet managers since they are actually salaried, unlike sales managers or sales scums. so any money the fleet managers make is pocket money for him.

P.S.: For anybody living in San Antonio area, DO NOT BUY any vehicles from Gilliespie Ford, I know nobody from this forum will but might know friends or family, they will F..K your A.. and don't give the curtesy of a reach around. had a friend got screwed over big and he and his parents(cosigner) are debating on legal actions. basically fraudulent sales(my legal interpretation). images/icons/tongue.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Interesting that even though you admit that it's the dealers that end up making money regardless and the salespeople that lose out, that you still refer to salespeople as sales-scums. I'd love to drop my pants for every customer and sell every car at invoice, but that's not my job. There are plenty of people in car sales that have tarnished the reputation of the profession and there will probably never be enough good guys to change the public's perception, but just like Mark F said, I've had customers that negotiated to invoice that will never buy another car from me because they think they got jobbed and customer's that have paid sticker that invite me to family barbecue's.

It's a tough line to ride because nobody wants to pay anything for a product and being able to negotiate the price of the product makes it even tougher. At the same time, the only way to really buy the product is to go through the process and that 'sales-scum' has a job for a reason. Yes, dealer's some type of profit on almost every car they sell. However, what happens when you run into a salesperson that does know their stuff and treats you with respect and hustles to satisfy you? JD, nobody is asking you to run a charity, but if someone is paying cash, is there really a big difference between $35,000 and $36,000? If someone is financing is there really a big difference between $447/month and $465/month? Either way it's a $1000 difference and that's the difference between just barely paying the bills and maybe taking your mate to a movie once in a while. As I've said in posts before, if your salesperson is an a$$, doesn't know their stuff, tries to b.s. you, or doesn't hustle for you, then they haven't earned a commission which is really what this is all about.

JerryG

04-22-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Mark F:

The invoice price you find on the internet sites does not include dealer association fee's, which vary from market to market (which is why you don't find them listed) but in my neck of the woods typically run about 2% of invoice.

Why would you assume Afty got a fully decked out 3.5SE. Personally, I have no idea what he's got.

[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]I'm not making any assumption about any specific individual's vehicle.

You made the statement in an post above that there was not 2K markup "even in a loaded Altima 3.5SE".

My point was that the numbers indicate there is, barring any inflated advertising charges, etc.

Two winters ago my store did a "$100 over invoice" sale for about 3 months. The net result was that 60% of the "profit" made on these cars went just to paying the sales staffs commissions and there wasn't enough money in the budget to so much as buy a quarter-page ad in the Thursday newspaper for 6 months. It absolutely killed the store financially for the better part of a year. Another side effect was that no other dealer in the district would trade with us for months, so if it wasn't in stock or on the incoming list, we couldn't sell it.

[/QB]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Well, what can you say. I guess they must be bad business people.

Mark F

04-23-2002, 02:52 AM

The dealer associate fee is not an "inflated advertising charge". Every manufacturer charges dealers for this. How much they charge depends on the brand and location of the dealer, which is why you won't find the amount on Edmunds or KBB. That's why instead you see a disclaimer like;

"Most vehicle invoices include a legitimate advertising fee levied by either the manufacturer or regional dealer groups. Ad fees can range from less than 1% of the vehicle's MSRP to more than 3%, depending on region. Metropolitan-area dealers are more likely to charge higher advertising fees than rural dealers. When you comparison shop for a car, be sure to ask the dealers how much the advertising charge is on the vehicle."

If you were to look at Edmunds and ignore the disclaimer (as most people do) you would think the invoice on a typically equipped 2.5S (MSRP $19,626)is $18,050. True dealer invoice in my district on this car however, is $18,394.

PS

"Invoice sales" do move metal, but they have long term consequences. All I can say is my store did it once and will probably never do it again. All I am trying to do is shatter the illusion that dealers make piles of money, even at invoice. The truth is most new car departments are not profitable.

**DONOTDELETE**

04-23-2002, 01:51 PM

Since a lot of things have been discussed already, how about these:

1) I've been told that a "fair" documentation fee should be $50 or less, yet when I've been talking to most dealerships, their doc fee is usually $200-250 (I assume this is a way to get back some $$ on the deal you negotiate down).

2) What other fees are really legit? It just seems that several dealerships will "fee you to death", so the bottom line (out the door) price just goes right back up.

I also think that many dealers will add their own "value packages" to the cars that will contain things I don't want. They will say that they can't take them off...but they never should have put them in to begin with. Also, I had one dealer tell me that their "value package" had among other things keyless entry and floor mats. Well, the car ALREADY came standard with those. So, they tried to charge me twice for the same thing. Obviously, I didn't get my car there.

Bottom line: I know everyone is entitled to try and make a profit with their business. But, they don't have to accept a deal that is stupid for them; I also don't have to accept a deal that doesn't make sense to me. I just wish some of the crap that comes with the whole negotiation process would go away - but that's how some $$ is made. Oh well.

Mark F

04-24-2002, 04:42 AM

Originally posted by SPMaximaSE:
Since a lot of things have been discussed already, how about these:

1) I've been told that a "fair" documentation fee should be $50 or less, yet when I've been talking to most dealerships, their doc fee is usually $200-250 (I assume this is a way to get back some $$ on the deal you negotiate down).

2) What other fees are really legit? It just seems that several dealerships will "fee you to death", so the bottom line (out the door) price just goes right back up.

I also think that many dealers will add their own "value packages" to the cars that will contain things I don't want. They will say that they can't take them off...but they never should have put them in to begin with. Also, I had one dealer tell me that their "value package" had among other things keyless entry and floor mats. Well, the car ALREADY came standard with those. So, they tried to charge me twice for the same thing. Obviously, I didn't get my car there.

Bottom line: I know everyone is entitled to try and make a profit with their business. But, they don't have to accept a deal that is stupid for them; I also don't have to accept a deal that doesn't make sense to me. I just wish some of the crap that comes with the whole negotiation process would go away - but that's how some $$ is made. Oh well.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Doc fee at my store is only $25.

I agree with you on the negotiation thing. Manufacturers come up with an MSRP because they regard it as a fair price for the car. However, because manufacturers can not dictate what retailers sell the car for, we have the whole negotiation hassle. If everything was like Saturn the world would be a better place images/icons/smile.gif

Afty

04-24-2002, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Mark F:
I'm curious BTW how Afty got an Altima for $2k under MSRP since there isn't that much markup in the car, even in a fully loaded 3.5SE.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Did someone mention my name? images/icons/grin.gif

I bought a 3.5SE with manual transmission, ABS package, Bose, sunroof, xenons, spoiler, splash guards, floor mats, and microfilter for $24,500 + $140 doc fee + $80 title & license fee (didn't have an old license plate to transfer) + tax. Total out-the-door price was just under $26,000. Sticker on the car was $26,500. Invoice according to Kelly Blue Book was somewhere around $24,000, so they got around $500 profit, which I thought was fair.

[ 04-24-2002, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Afty ]

**DONOTDELETE**

04-25-2002, 05:36 AM

My parents wanted the 3.5 Altima when it just came out. The dealer didn't want to deal below invoice but were willing to give the '02 Maxima at invoice. It was perfect because that's the strategy my parents wanted and I helped them get a good deal on it.

**DONOTDELETE**

07-12-2002, 04:36 AM

Originally posted by ptxers:
Audi told me the same lame story saying, "it is a new car and we cannot go below MSRP". When I went to another Audi dealer no more than a month later there was room for negotiation. I refuse to pay full price for any car whether it is new or not. I understand dealers have to make money, but I will not let them eat Filet Mignon off of me, but I will let them eat more than Hamburger Helper. images/icons/frown.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]

**DONOTDELETE**

07-12-2002, 04:38 AM

**DONOTDELETE**

07-12-2002, 04:43 AM

Originally posted by franktampainfiniti:
<blockquote><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Originally posted by ptxers:
Audi told me the same lame story saying, "it is a new car and we cannot go below MSRP". When I went to another Audi dealer no more than a month later there was room for negotiation. I refuse to pay full price for any car whether it is new or not. I understand dealers have to make money, but I will not let them eat Filet Mignon off of me, but I will let them eat more than Hamburger Helper. images/icons/frown.gif <hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]on 7/11 an 03 g35 went to auction in orlando, manheim...msrp was 33,400 and the car brought list...seems to me that's a fantastic investment. what people don't understand is that fire sale discounts, o apr, etc, have an immediate trickle-down effect on all current owners...sometimes holding the line on pricing does benefit--long term--you as a customer.

Mark F

07-13-2002, 07:50 PM

Interesting.

I know that if I don't make the majority of my car sales each month at or very close to MSRP, I can't pay my mortgage, let alone afford Hamburger Helper

240coupe92

12-23-2002, 08:01 AM

That is the beauty of our market in the U.S..... GO GET ANOTHER JOB!!! The lower the number of salesmen, the more each will get in commissions. Most of the time they are all huddled around each other waiting for their "prey" anyhow... The Gov't doesn't assign you the job of car salesman..

Mark F

12-24-2002, 06:39 AM

Boy your a flippin genius aren't you?

Remind me to submit your name to the Nobel committee.

240coupe92

12-24-2002, 08:48 AM

No, but I also don't have any pity for someone whose payment of their mortgage depends on charging their customers MSRP for cars. Its great that you want to do that for a living, but don't cry when the people come in and want a deal. When YOU buy a car do you go into the dealer and pay MSRP because the salesman has a family and has a mortgage to pay? I have a family and a mortgage to pay too. I don't care if I have a close relationship with my salesman or not. I sure don't feel screwed when I buy a car for invoice or a little above and I would probably go back to that salesman for future vehicles.

Mark F

12-24-2002, 01:39 PM

What's wrong with paying retail? You do it with everything else you buy - and pay dramatically higher markups too so that the people who sell those products can pay their mortgage. What makes cars different? It's not like the pathetic markup that remains in new cars (about 40% less than just 5 years ago) is going to make a difference in anyone's budget.

240coupe92

12-24-2002, 08:58 PM

I think you are confused. I don't buy things to pay someone elses mortgage. I buy them because I find value in them. If I were offered the same product at a higher price I may not find that value, so I wouldn't buy it. When you go to buy a house do you just pay what the person is asking and not negotiate? You are comparing products that are not traditionally negotiable to cars which traditionally are negotiable. If you don't like it, why not just work for that Saturn dealer down the street?

I will always want to keep as much of MY money MINE. I don't work hard everyday so I can go into the dealer and pay retail when I can sit there for a little longer and haggle the price down a little. If selling cars wasn't such an easy job maybe they would pay more....Who can't sell cars? Other than toughing it out when you make no money...Maybe that would jog your brain that it isn't such a great profession to be in. I actually have no need for any "sales person". They don't sell me on the car and to tell you the truth all they do is do the paperwork. Back in the day, they at least gave you all the info on the cars. Nowadays, car salesmen usually don't know jack about the cars they sell, other than what it says on the window sticker. I don't even think there is a need for salesmen other than for people that are still used to the old way of looking for a car. I don't find value in your profession, so I don't see a reason to pay you commission for no reason. What value do you provide me that I can't provide myself, besides filling out the dealer's paperwork? And that is worth????

Mark F

12-25-2002, 06:49 AM

Trust me, it is far from easy - probably the hardest job I've ever had - and I have come across dozens of people who can't sell cars. And I have yet to meet a person who claims "I don't need a salesman" who wasn't a liar.

240coupe92

12-25-2002, 10:45 AM

The only reason I "need" a salesman, is that the dealer doesn't give me any alternative. List what you do for me that I can't do for myself? I do all the research before even showing up at the dealer and that is how I prefer to do it, since the salesmen know jack and they are just a little biased... Seriously, list what you do for me as a salesperson at a dealer that I can't do for myself.

Mark F

12-26-2002, 05:48 AM

It's not worth the bother. You won't get it. You see, I meet people EXACTLY like you on a daily basis - arrogant **************s who are convinced they are the one person in the universe that knows everything and are far too pompous to NEED a salesperson. So far I have proven every one of them wrong, and they usually don't even know it. I have a lot of fun with these folks.

Besides, you have to do something for me first. Since selling cars is SOOOOOOOOO easy, why don't you try it for a while. If you could though, do it at my store so I can watch you fail.

240coupe92

12-26-2002, 08:51 AM

Arrogant? I think it is more like skeptical. You still haven't shown me what service you provide that I "need" so bad. The hardest part of your job is getting the person to buy that day , when they want to leave and think about it for a while. That does not affect me in the least. Unless you get the car for the price I want or damn near it, I am not going to buy ever from you. I don't even talk to a salesperson unless I am willing to buy anyhow. Lots of skill involved to "convince" me to buy. haha.

What do you know that I cannot figure out on my own? I ask you again. If you prove someone wrong and they don't know it...is it really of value to them? NO. I guess if it is fun to you, then that could make up for the lack of income from the job. I wouldn't sell cars. Why? Because there is no need for the job and I can't see myself making money doing it. Ummm, that is called using forethought before going into a job and not just afterthought that the job doesn't pay well. Don't blame the people coming in the door who are being frugal, blame yourself getting in that situation that you need to try and screw those people over to pay your mortgage. Why do you think there are so many people that are car salesmen? Because some jackass with no education and limited experience can do it. Of course you are the "best of the best" so you should be making big money right??? Your store is the hardest to sell in... Is that something you tell yourself when you bring home a small paycheck to make yourself feel better? I think the best salespeople are the ones that don't think of their customers as arrogant **************s and treat them like educated consumers that you can't trick or deceive into buying what they don't want to buy. What education or other experience do you have that makes you so good of a salesman?

squid

12-31-2002, 07:23 AM

Good job, you've shown everyone just how pointlessly hostile you can be.I really hope you're a union worker, especially for the government at some level.
You're not entirely wrong with your post. Pointlessly insulting, but not entirely wrong.
If you bring about a point that someone never considered, it is of value to them. Not that large of a percent of people out there really know what they're looking at when they go to a car lot. A good/professional salesperson should be able to guide them through the models and options to what fits their needs, not just what fills the salesperson's pocket. This outdated haggeling nonesense is what makes the dealerships try to shove vehicles out the door ASAP. I realize that not all people need a sales person to help them pick out a vehicle, but some do. I and most of my friends don't have much of a need for that. Even we don't know everything that there is to know about the products we're looking at, however. That's where the salespeople need to be educated, not pushy. I still look to sales people to answer questions when it comes to furniture, computers, appliances, guns(well more my little brother on this one) and houses. All of these things I am in the market for now, or will be soon. You're right on one point, that we don't need someone to tell us why we should take it home today. THAT will be part of buying a car until they stop the haggeling and undercutting one another. I'm not crazy about it, but it's here. We need to keep in mind that our involvement with this website is because we're already fairly knowledgeable on these topics, and won't need any consulting. I've put quite a few people into new Altima 2.5S's when they were looking to get a V-6 of some kind. I just showed them that the newer four cylinders aren't the weak, incompetent powerplants that they once were. I made less money by doing that, but they're satisfied with the transaction.I know you won't agree, just on principal, but it's the truth.

240coupe92

12-31-2002, 08:49 AM

I think the point of my post was not to be insulting to all car salesmen, or salesmen in general, just to MarkF who thinks that it is a flaw in the system to allow us to negotiate the price below MSRP when he has a mortgage to pay. I find that insulting to me as a purchaser of automobiles. I don't walk into the dealer with any cares about you or your mortgage and that is how I like it. If you don't make enough money doing the job, stop doing it. I don't see the comparison to another trade and the profit margins in other businesses. I don't care about their profit margins. Do you go into a jewelry store and say "hey, I want that tennis bracelet for my wife, but I work at a car dealer and I know I usually want to get MSRP for cars, so I am going to give you what it says on this tag right here" If you CAN negotiate, you should negotiate, or you are paying more than you have to.

Now, on to you as a car salesman JDW. I think that if you actually listen to the customer and try to do what they want and not what you want them to do, they you are doing your job. I just don't really see anything all that complicated in that. It is much harder to try and screw people than it is to just help them out with a purchase. Most car salesmen are NOT "mr.niceguy". And I will argue till the day is done that "most" car salesmen are auto enthusiasts as well. Just isn't the case. If that were the case, they would be able to help me when I ask them reasonable questions about a car that I am looking at. They usually just make up an answer and go on, but I know right then that they are just full of crap and lying to me right off the bat. Should I buy from them, or maybe find someone that actually considers that I may know a thing or two and not insult my intelligence by spewing garbage back at me.

Lastly, the government has Union workers? Wouldn't they be government employees and not Union workers if they worked for the government? Or do you mean Union worker on a government contract? I am neither. So I guess I just don't get it.