opinions on GM's turbo cars (and truck and SUV) [Archive]

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Irie_eyes

01-10-2002, 02:12 PM

any opinions on Buick T-types or Grand Nationals and such turbo v-6s?
had, see, tried, raced or raced against?
What about a Syclone or Typhoon?
GM has the new 4200 inline-6 and there is a prototype twin-turbo. There might be a comeback of a turbo GM, but possibly when the new Camaro is out...

thearabian

01-10-2002, 04:59 PM

one car:

Buick GNX

period.

if they can reproduce something like that, i will melt in awe.

SR20DEN

01-10-2002, 05:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Irie_eyes:
any opinions on Buick T-types or Grand Nationals and such turbo v-6s?
had, see, tried, raced or raced against?
What about a Syclone or Typhoon?
GM has the new 4200 inline-6 and there is a prototype twin-turbo. There might be a comeback of a turbo GM, but possibly when the new Camaro is out...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could very well be onto something here. I test drove a Chevy Trailblazer and I had a very hard time beleiving it had a Chevy engine under the hood. They really did some serious homework when building that 4200. The sheer smoothness of this engine is seriously encroaching into Nissan territory. The main thing they need to work out is the low end grunt. It behaves exactly like a 4 valve OHC engine, unlike the VQ35DE which can easily fool you sometimes out of the hole. I could easily see this engine having some sort of boost in the future.
Other than that, they have a real winner on their hands and I would say it's placement on Wards top 10 is well deserved.

As for the Camaro id say it's only a matter of time. Ford brought back the Tbird, Nissan brought back the Z, you can bet your @$$ that Chevrolet will revive the Camaro. (thats IF they really do kill it off like they plan)

images/icons/smile.gif

Sorin

01-10-2002, 07:50 PM

As for turbo, yes, the Grand Nationals were seriously bad ass rides in their day (and on the dragstrip even still today). Here (http://www.gnttype.org/resources.html) is a website about how to easily tune the turbo Buick cars for some wicked speed and power. I still do not know how the Grand National and other turbo Buicks slipped through the heirarchy of conservatism at GM, but if something like that returns, keep that review mirror nice and clean buddy! You won't want to be caught off gaurd when it comes around!

As for the 4.2 I6, I agree. The conservatist soap-maker management knew they would have a hit, so they let the engineers do their job and unleash their abilities to build that bad ass motor. The entire vehicle is just so well engineered. Coil springs at all corners, rear air shocks in some cases, front 4WD axle through the oil pan, and direct mount motor accessories (instead of brackets galore) are just a few examples of what the engineering and design team can do if they are allowed to do so. I have driven quite a few of the vehicles, and I do agree they need some more low end out-of-the-hole torque. And as for boost, I hope Lutz lets the boys in R&D play with it! Can you imagine what that thing would be like? Yes, the Ward's award is damned well deserved. Even though I have high exposure to these vehicles (working at a Chevy dealer and all), I am still amazed every time I get into a Trailblazer or Envoy. The engine smoothness, suspension smoothness, tight-space agility (how about that steering radius!), quietness, and amazingly low NHV levels are just all outstanding, considering its GM.

Nismo

01-23-2002, 04:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Irie_eyes:
Opinions on Buick T-types or Grand Nationals and...Syclone or Typhoon?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>They're all very fast in a straight line and all very trouble-prone (except for maybe the Buick T-types which I don't know much about). Like most turboed cars, they all make good weekend drag racers. Unless you were really into drag racing, I wouldn't give any of those models a second glance. If you are really into drag racing, however, then you'd be silly not to want to at least test drive a Grand National at least once before you die. images/icons/smile.gif

White_240sx

01-23-2002, 05:03 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Irie_eyes:
There might be a comeback of a turbo GM, but possibly when the new Camaro is out..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Bel-Air concept vehicle has a Turbo I-5, 315hp and 315lb-ft I believe.

**DONOTDELETE**

01-23-2002, 05:53 PM

opinions, umm, muy rapido. the original problem with the gnx was it was faster than the vette so it had to be axed.

i think it will be the next trend in 2000, turbo cars. 1st dodge with the neon srt, turbo pt cruiser. gm is right on it with the cadillac performance line with the turbo cts, etc. a turbo cavalier would make it a lot more appealing, i just hope ford brings the focus rs over.

NISSANSPDR

01-23-2002, 08:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by SR20DEN:

You could very well be onto something here. I test drove a Chevy Trailblazer and I had a very hard time beleiving it had a Chevy engine under the hood. They really did some serious homework when building that 4200. The sheer smoothness of this engine is seriously encroaching into Nissan territory. The main thing they need to work out is the low end grunt. It behaves exactly like a 4 valve OHC engine, unlike the VQ35DE which can easily fool you sometimes out of the hole. I could easily see this engine having some sort of boost in the future.
Other than that, they have a real winner on their hands and I would say it's placement on Wards top 10 is well deserved.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really like the new Trailblazer...it definitely is up there in the looks category and the 270HP 6 is not bad either. The front end is quite aggressive and the fenders are oh so muscular!!! Bad ass!!!

_______________________________________
Yours truly,
Gabriel
www.greddy240sx.nissanpower.com (http://www.greddy240sx.nissanpower.com) (car 4 sale)

**DONOTDELETE**

01-24-2002, 12:57 PM

Thumbs up on GM turbo engines. I would love to have a turbo Trans Am (modified grand national engine) or a Syclone. GM saved the image of the Corvette by axing their turbo cars but killed the image of GM.

Hudson

01-24-2002, 09:00 PM

I, for one, am disappointed in the GMT360 (Trailblazer/Envoy/Bravada). It's not all I expected and I think the new Explorer is a better vehicle.

After driving the Bravada, I was amazingly disappointed in Ward's, Motor Trend (no surprise there), and the North American COTY group in their choice. It's too soft, steering's too vague, power is merely adequate (and not what I expected from the 270hp rating), brakes are poor...it's not a great truck.

SR20DEN

02-02-2002, 01:53 PM

Our speculation comes true (somewhat). The wonderfully engineered 4200 has twin turbos in a concept Trailblazer. Motor Trend March 2002 issue has one of these. Twin turbos with 400hp, does 0-60 in 5.35 seconds. They only made minor bottom end changes to the vehicle. Lower CR (8.5:1 down from 10.1:1), oil squirters and thicker wrist pins were the most critical changes.

I've seen a picture of a 4200 block and cylinder head in another magazine and I noticed alot of SR20DE design ques.

[ 02-02-2002: Message edited by: SR20DEN ]

SR20DEN

02-02-2002, 02:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Hudson:
I, for one, am disappointed in the GMT360 (Trailblazer/Envoy/Bravada). It's not all I expected and I think the new Explorer is a better vehicle.

After driving the Bravada, I was amazingly disappointed in Ward's, Motor Trend (no surprise there), and the North American COTY group in their choice. It's too soft, steering's too vague, power is merely adequate (and not what I expected from the 270hp rating), brakes are poor...it's not a great truck.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dissapointed in Wards or not, this is a very well engineered power plant. My only gripe about the thing is it's lack of low end torque. Some magazines claim otherwise saying it has plenty. But don't forget this is a 4 valve motor and not a stump pulling pushrod big block like what most Americans want. Multi valve engines inherently suffer from lack of bottom end because the air can't swirl into the chamber (and many other less impacting reasons).
In time GM will correct this issue and probbaly with the same tricks that Acura/Honda have been using for years.

As for your other comments... gee im not sure. The Trailblazer I drove seemed to be quite responsive. Cars ARE like snowflakes, you can test drive them all and each one will have it's own personality. The softness is probably planned. This isn't a ruggend of road vehicle. It's a well refined road going SUV for soccer moms and what not. It's not hard to see why some people would prefer the Exploder since it's not as refined and a little rougher around the edges.

Nismo

02-03-2002, 10:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Cars are like snowflakes, you can test drive them all and each one will have it's own personality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A side effect of poor quality control. Not to pick too badly, but from my own personal experience, that sounds like a typical GM model.

SR20DEN

02-04-2002, 02:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by Nismo:
A side effect of poor quality control. Not to pick too badly, but from my own personal experience, that sounds like a typical GM model.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That very well could be. But it goes for Nissans as well. I've test driven a few Maximas and each one does have a slightly different personality. I find it hard to believe there is any carmaker that can build them so close together that you can't tell a difference.

Hudson

02-04-2002, 07:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Originally posted by SR20DEN:
...It's not hard to see why some people would prefer the Exploder since it's not as refined and a little rougher around the edges.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The new (2002) Explorer is quite refined.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-04-2002, 10:09 AM

Check out this guy's 240Z powered by a Grand National turbo V6. He's running 10's. Pretty cool:
http://home.cfl.rr.com/scottiegnz/gnz.html

Maybe this is some GM power y'all can get on board with. j/k.

Irie_eyes

02-04-2002, 10:28 AM

I just wanted to know some opinions, all which were positive.
I like GM, and get a lot of flak from import people talking down GM for it's "ancient" small-block and using displacement for power.
IMHO, if they don't know GM, they shouldn't talk, because of GM's turbo cars.
Turbo Buicks are in a special part and different league of GM performance. They were best suited only for straight-line performance, but really showed GM's versatility, and at the time, was very high-tech. People who know of these now rarities know to not underestimate them.
It's funny because import drag racing sanctions ban these cars even though they are V-6s and do qualify. I guess they are so well-established and tweaked they would destroy many not-as-established and tuned import race cars.
I personally like rarer AWD Typhoons and Syclones.
GM is considering a concept GNX, a current FWD 4-dr Regal with a 300-hp turbo motor…not exactly a GNX, but interesting.
I would really like to see a revival of the GM RWD turbo cars, now that the F-body is dead. I have also heard of the twin-turbo concept of the 4200 Vortec, possibly in the next gen Camaro. The Vortec N/A actually could make a high performance engine also. GM has a bunch of tweaked Cavalier concepts.
If anyone has noticed, GM has gotten kinda serious. The 4200 Vortec is just crazy. I love mentioning it to 4.6 Mustang people. GM won Baja and Pikes Peak using a bored and stroked 4200 to 5.0L….in the V-8 class.
The automotive media have raved about it. Looks like GM have being doing lots of homework. Same goes with the Z06 and it's LS6. The Caddy CTS is also something unexpected from GM.
The next crazy GM engines are the new global Ecotec (Turbo has a good article), the Euro-spec XV-8 concept, and the insane XV-12 concept, which will actually be built as a truck engine.
But GM upper-management usually is all talk and no show. I hope Bob Lutz can change that like what he did with Dodge.

Irie_eyes

02-04-2002, 10:32 AM

Although the same, the Bravada, Trailblazer, and Envoy are very different in terms of the little things.

Motor Trend's SUV of the Year shootout I do believe had the Trailblazer and the Envoy, and the Envoy won as the MT's SUV of the Year.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-04-2002, 10:34 AM

I dont know about you guys, but I Valet alot of cars & every GM car(besides Caddlilac) I have driven have UGLY *** interiors. Even the new trailblazer is ugly inside. I would much rather have a ford over GM & I dont really like ethier brand.

**DONOTDELETE**

02-04-2002, 09:24 PM

IMO,
Ford and GM Almost Get IT.
It's like buying a house that is set up exactly like you want.
EXCEPT, a window and Light switch is in the wrong place. Almost

**DONOTDELETE**

02-06-2002, 08:27 AM

I like GM cars, too. Sure the interiors are usually bland, but we're talking about cars not the latest fashion trends. GM has successfully proven their abilities with the turbo V6's and pushrod NA V8's. Their execution leaves a little to be desired. At least they offered the LS1 in the f-bodies but screwed up with the body design. Scrapping the turbo V6's was a big mistake and hopefully they won't scrap the LS1's. They just need to focus more on the packaging so they can sell more cars to the mainstream consumers while continuing to offer performance to the enthusiast (for image/reputation). They also need more variety in performance engines. Bring back the turbo's, continue with the DOHC designs, but don't discount the power of the pushrod.

Slack00

02-14-2002, 07:19 PM

While GM may fall short in many aspects in many an educated opinion, there is one fact that I would like to point out: they've made some great engines.

People point out the (well deserved) sucess of Nissans VQ line of motors for over, what, eight years?

But what about the eternal Chevy small block V8? In one form or another, this is perhaps the single most influential engine in American Autodom for the past 50 years.

And right there, under our noses, is the GM 3800 V6. Sure, its a bread and butter engine, but do you realise that it was one of the most fuel-efficient V6's ever made? Check out your Consumer Reports and you'll find the 1989 Buick LeSabre as one of the (very few) recommended GM vehicles, largely due to the debut of this engine. I personally owned this very car for a period of time and was regularly getting 24/30+ street/hwy gas mileage numbers. I would also like to point out that GM raced this engine.

And then there is the cult GNX turbo V6...and the Northstar V8's (also raced) and their Shortstar V6 derivitives.....the new 4200 I6...

You can accuse GM of a lot of things, but not making good engines isn't one of them.

As for the insular comments about drag racing: Its American culture, and you must understand American culture....Permit me to rant:

In Europe, the primary focus of importance is who you are. People ask "Who are you?" and they place value upon the inherent properties of a man. The intrinsic is more important than the extrinsic. (if I can use that word...) They have statues of painters, sculptors, musicians an playrights in their parks; people who are talented and/or add social value because of their creative insight.

Americans value people who do things. Who you are is not so important as what you do. People in America ask "What do you do?" and they place value upon the deeds of an individual. Social value in America is based upon your achievements and not your inherent worth. Americans have statues of people on horses, great military commanders and people who "do" things. THIS is the American dream: to achieve despite your station.

"So what the hell does all this do with drag racing??" you ask...

Well, Americans like a clear winner, and they value easy results that cannot be argued with, and they like and respect sheer, honest power, not rougish cunning. No points are awarded for style, and it is almost more noble to be single minded in the pusuit of victory of just one area than to be "well rounded" or a jack-of-all-trades. In short, they like braun.
THIS is drag racing. This is the automobile equivalent of mideval jousting....(as opposed to something more elegant, like fencing.)

Of course, there is no "better" culture...there are just...differences.....and I for one find just about all cultural positions to be interesting...

[ 02-15-2002, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: Slack00 ]

Nismo

02-15-2002, 06:02 AM

Slack, you've been gone so long, I figured you'd finished school, gotten a job designing cars for the General, and forgotten all about FreshAlloy. Welcome back. Originally posted by Slack00:
You can accuse GM of a lot of things...<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]Finally, I have permission! images/icons/smile.gif

Irie_eyes

02-15-2002, 08:41 AM

"As for the insular comments about drag racing: Its American culture, and you must understand American culture"
You can't have a superior handling car AND superior drag race car.
And it takes more skill to drive a heavy, RWD, more powerful car.

Drag racing I feel is the most grassroots of all auto racing.
Which is why it is so successful in the US. FInd out what % of other countries populations have done some form of competition with their autos and the US has the greatest.
You can run what you brung, very entry-level, low cost, with easily built facilites.
In the 60s-70s, drag racing exposure was big, especially Super Stock classes. Big enough that the Big3 produced high-powered cars specifically to be legit in Super Stock and win.
This was US drag racing version of "Le Mans"...manufacturer against manufacturer.
Then it fizzled due to lack of interest, and making cars that appeal more to the general public.

Now we have this "import drag racing culture", which does not even come close to domestic drag racing culture.
FWD drag racing? Oh please...
It's not about the engine/chassis builder, tuner, or driver. They say it's all about the manufacturer, when they have no part of it.
If a FWD import doesn't do well in the 1/4, it's downplayed to Honda's quicker ones. Then they also hype how there are 9-sec Hondas.
They make like it's all Honda's doing, and other manufacturers aren't keeping up. I think manufacturers have other things to concentrate on instead of just 1/4 times.
But unfortunatly a lot of kiddies think it is because it is a Honda, and buy Hondas, when its all tuning and driving. A 9-sec Honda is barely a Honda.
Now there is a 9-sec Neon because of engine building and tuning...not because it is a Neon.

It's sad that the F-body is dead because some people just don't know what is good for their intended purpose.
Blame the import magazines I say. "Wanna a good drag race car..buy a FWD Honda."

Nismo

02-15-2002, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by Irie_eyes:
Drag racing I feel is the most grassroots of all auto racing. Which is why it is so successful in the US. Find out what % of other countries populations have done some form of competition with their autos and the US has the greatest.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]If the US has a higher percentage of people involved in auto racing, it's probably a simple matter of our high level of disposable income combined with our historically low petroleum prices. It's sad that the F-body is dead because some people just don't know what is good for their intended purpose. Blame the import magazines I say. "Wanna a good drag race car..buy a FWD Honda."<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]How many people do you know who were seriously considering a Camaro SS or TransAm WS6, but then changed their mind and bought a Civic because they thought it would make a better drag car? Seriously now, if Honda Civics, or FWD cars in general, were the F-body's biggest problem, then Mustang sales would be just as bad, and Cavalier sales would be skyrocketing; however, neither is the case. Rather than blame the consumer, or magazines, or other things disliked, GM should simply redesign the Camaro to satisfy today's car buyers--and from the rumours I've heard, this is exactly what GM plans to do in about five years time.

[ 02-15-2002, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: Nismo ]

Slack00

02-15-2002, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by Nismo:
Slack, you've been gone so long, I figured you'd finished school, gotten a job designing cars for the General, and forgotten all about FreshAlloy. Welcome back. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]No, I've been called to do something a little more important than designing cars....But thanks for the compliment about the General!; if you knew how GM actually selected its engineers you'd also know that its no small feat. (Last I heard they only selected engineers who had been to GM Tech, a school who's sole purpose is to train nerdy car nuts for four years to be Automotive Engineers. )

Slack00

02-15-2002, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Nismo:
If the US has a higher percentage of people involved in auto racing, it's probably a simple matter of our high level of disposable income combined with our historically low petroleum prices. <blockquote><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]It's sad that the F-body is dead because some people just don't know what is good for their intended purpose. Blame the import magazines I say. "Wanna a good drag race car..buy a FWD Honda."<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]How many people do you know who were seriously considering a Camaro SS or TransAm WS6, but then changed their mind and bought a Civic because they thought it would make a better drag car? Seriously now, if Honda Civics, or FWD cars in general, were the F-body's biggest problem, then Mustang sales would be just as bad, and Cavalier sales would be skyrocketing; however, neither is the case. Rather than blame the consumer, or magazines, or other things disliked, GM should simply redesign the Camaro to satisfy today's car buyers--and from the rumours I've heard, this is exactly what GM plans to do in about five years time.<hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial[/img]This is very true. I don't believe there are a whole lot of Civic/Camaro cross shoppers...but maybe Prelude/Camaro cross shoppers?

And, yes, of course it is a responsibility of every car company to stay on top of current consumer demands. That's just business.

But...to a degree, I think you certainly can blame the success or failure of a vehicle on the consumer and the hype from the magazines. Remember, "There's no accounting for public taste." I think anyone in advertising will generally argue that the product is secondary to the desire they (try to) create for it. Companies don't generally throw away money, so the billions of dollars spent on advertizing is testament to its power. I think the major arguments for the Rise of the Civic (as a racer, at least) are cultural (its reputation as a good small car is well deserved). If consumers, however rationally/irrationally, ascribe some kind of status/value to a certain brand/image, there is very little a number-crunching engineer can do to change it. (But maybe an advertiser....) People are biased. You can never argue with a person's opinion.

Clearly, there is a plethora of good alternatives to the Civic as a racer; this is proof positive of the power of Opinion. But I certainly agree that this is not the specific reason for the demise of the Camaro, for all the very true reasons you stated earlier.

[ 02-15-2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Slack00 ]