GM influence....Saab & Subaru

[hiwayman17]

As the current issue of Road & Track mentions...the new Saab 93 looks so much like the Euro GM cars except for the Saab front end. It's really sad that the Saab uniqueness is being totally wiped out in favor of bland, across the board GMness. While GM thinks that removing the Saab quirks will bring in many more new buyers, I think just the opposite is true. Now there is no reason to buy a Saab...just buy a Saturn L.

And does anyone see the GM influence in the Subaru Baja? The gray body cladding is so reminiscent of the Aztek and Avalanche...it's getting scary!

[jaje]

the saab epsilon chassis will be shared with several upcoming gm models including its passenger sedans

subaru is mostly owned by fuji heavy industries so gm does not have a great influence on that company as it does with saab

[CoCo_PuFf]

as far as I see, GM doesn't give people what they want.Instead they keep trying to bee cool,and this make most of their styling bland or totally out of control. the new 93 is a good looking car, but in this case GM is just trying to follow the crowd, and each time they do this they fall short. the new car should've had a more powerful engine IMHO. as for saab's unique styling, I'm glad that they changed it from what it was, cause their"unique styling" was their biggest problem in terms of sales. Nobody would ever look at a saab and say WOW thats a nice car, and even if they did, when they see the interior they would probably hurl all over the car. the new 93 is a very good looking car, and the interior is sharp, but GM should have put a little more uniqueness into the design cause right now it kinda liiks like a 3series, IS300, A4, and a SAAB 95 all mixed together (am I babbling http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif )

hope i'm making sense.

[hiwayman17]

To each his own. My absolute favorite car back in the early to mid 80s was the Saab 900. I loved the unique exterior styling and the interior was perfect for me. And those awesome seats....used to be made by an Italian furniture company...they were excellent.

[FanaticZ]

i agree, i think saab is finally heading in the right direction and might even become a player. i've seen the 9-3 posted on a couple of boards and the responce was very positive.

http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/2003/1.jpg http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/2003/2.jpg http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/2003/3.jpg http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/2003/4.jpg http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/2003/6.jpg

as far as the baja, yea thats bad, but subaru has been a body cladding freak before with the outback lineup. at least paint the plastic the same color as the car.

[Irie_eyes]

Saab's new Head of Design is Micheal Mauer.
"Mauer joins Saab from MCC Smart GmbH in Germany, where he was the head of the design department. His earlier positions include General Manager of the design department at Mercedes-Benz in Stuttgart, where he worked on the styling of the Mercedes SLK, SL and A-class, and General Manager at the Mercedes-Benz Advanced Design Studio in Japan."
His newest Saab concept, the 9-X, while IMHO is ugly and weird, has won rave reviews.

"It's really sad that the Saab uniqueness is being totally wiped out in favor of bland, across the board GMness"
Seems like a lame attempt to put down GM. Get your facts straight.

Got it highwayman17?! There is little to no influence from GM.

Because GM bought out the rest of Saab, Saab was also able to do full development of their variable compression engine.

Saab's "uniqueness" is also it's failure. They are just changing with the times.

"While GM thinks that removing the Saab quirks will bring in many more new buyers, I think just the opposite is true"
Like what quirks? The hatchback?

As for it's influence in Subaru...they don't have that much. They just have 20% ownership of Fuji Heavy Industries.

They are considering the Chevy Borrego concept on the Subaru WRX platfrom. What GM doesn't understand is that they cannot get success just because it really is a WRX. They need to know how to market it better.

[hiwayman17]

NO GM influence??? Are you blind?

Just the platform, the engines, the basic shape--especially the front end/fendors, the steering, etc. etc.

[Irie_eyes]

Compared to what euro-GM?

Looks like a "3series, IS300, A4, and a SAAB 95 all mixed together "

[kazi]

This Saab 9-3 shares the 'Epsilon' platform MANY other GM models, including the Malibu and Grand Am. GM influence is there. Even the older 9-3 shared platform and engine with Saturn L series (minus the engine) and Opel Vectra.

[Slack00]

Whaoh, waitaminute...someone striaghten me out here....The current Malibu and Grand Am are not on the Epsillon chassis... The Malibu came out in 97 (98?). The Epsillon was in the development stages then, right? They are planning? to put them on the platform, correct? I've even heard that they may kill the Malibu...

Secondly...doesn't SAAB have an all-turbo engine lineup?? Iirc, the last time GM made a turbo was on the Buick GNX...

So...in a nutshell...what are you guys talking about?

As for the bodystyle debate....I somewhat lament the fact that there is not a hatchback, but I think that the design looks absolutely SAAB-like (NOTHING like "GMness"...what are you guys smoking???) and very dashing...My twin brother owns a 99 SAAB 9-3 Viggen (sweeeeeet car) and the practicality + fun factor of a sports car with hatchback gives him the greatest positive feeling about his purchase. Perhaps they can bring back the hatch later or create a cool wagon....but I understand and applaud SAAB for trying to stay competitive...like Irie Eyes posted: part of its uniquenss (no matter how loved) was also part of its failure. After all, how many of you, when considering an entry-level luxury sedan, consider the SAAB 9-3?? This will finally make it look and act like a real player with BMW 3, Mercedes Benz, Lexus, and all the rest.

We can all cry about other similar sob stories like SAAB....(sob...SAAB....orry, couldn't resist, http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/laugh.gif )...Jaguar comes to mind...but they were ultimately failures, too, and had to be rescued by those who think more practically...

[kazi]

I meant to say the 03 Saab 9-3 will share platform with the next gen 04 Malibu and 05 Pontiac Grand Am, along side with the next 05 Saturn midsize (the L will be discontinued) and 03 Opel Vectra.

Currently, the 03 Saab 9-3 does not share anything with the Malibu or Grand Am.

GM has always made a turbo, but it was always over on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. Look at the Opel line ups. The Astra coupe came in a 2.0L turbo for a while.

[Slack00]

But that's not the same turbo engine that SAAB currently uses, is it? And its not made in NA, correct? SAAB makes extensive use of their LPT (light pressure turbo); I suspect this is just marketing speak more than any real technological achievement, but I don't think its the same one GM uses in the Astra.

[kazi]

No, its not a North America available turbo, but you only specified GM as a whole and their turbo engines. Not sure if the pre-2003 Saab's 2.0L turbo is the same one in the Astra coupe. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

[Slowmotion]

I think in the upper sport sedan market adequate it not enough unless you are the bench mark company like Bimmer. They have to exceed the expectation and more to put their name in the game. G35 is a good example.

[Irie_eyes]

"...the new Saab 93 looks so much like the Euro GM cars except for the Saab front end. It's really sad that the Saab uniqueness is being totally wiped out in favor of bland, across the board GMness"

How does the EPSILON platform dictate the "Saab uniqueness"?
How did the EPSILON platform dictate the "front end supposedly looking like a euro-GM?"

The platform and the body work are two DIFFERENT things...

[kazi]

Saab's uniqueness was that they were their quirky looking hatchbacks that Saab enthusiast liked and identified Saabs with. Since GM's interception, Saab's been moving away from hatchbacks and focusing on more notchbacks. When the 9-5 came into play, using a lot of GM parts from the Opel Vectra, the hatchbacks were gone. With the new 9-3, there will be no more hatchbacks in Saab's lineup anymore.

[Irie_eyes]

"Saab's uniqueness was that they were their quirky looking hatchbacks that Saab enthusiast liked and identified Saabs with."

So what...they are able to keep the Saab enthusiasts buying Saabs?
What is that going to do to sales? How much Saab enthusiasts do you know?
I think they want to compete with the other luxo brands.
GM's willing to dump the 50 Saab enthusiasts to get a chunk of well-establised Euro luxo brands...

[hiwayman17]

Why is it that GM is making Vectra hatchbacks????? And Saab loses it's hatchback? Makes no sense. Oh, wait, it does make sense...it's GM.

[Irie_eyes]

Besides, I think the Epsilon and Sigma chassis were developed by GM Europe.

[hiwayman17]

From Global Auto Systems:


2003 Saab 9-3

The classic Saab character is almost gone, but the Swedes make one terrific Opel.

By Paul Lienert


The first Saab I ever sat in was a vintage 96 — a Sixties-era hatchback with a quirky two-stroke, three-cylinder engine and a distinctive teardrop shape — that was owned by my high-school buddy Linus Meldrum. It didn’t run and, to the best of my recollection, never did while Linus possessed it, even though we tried to fire it up a couple times. It mostly just sat at the end of his driveway, collecting dust and ardent stares from the local autophiles.

Several years later, as a young auto writer/editor in 1977, I was lucky enough to test-drive one of the early turbocharged Saabs, a black 99 hatchback. An experimental model that supposedly was one of the first of its kind in North America, this particular Saab evokes memories both fond and brittle. I remember experiencing, for the first time, the indescribable sensation of feeling the turbo kick in under heavy throttle and the wacky-looking Saab — it vaguely resembled a Bauhaus-inspired bathtub on wheels — literally lurching to one side, a victim of prodigious torque steer that has marked virtually every turbocharged Saab since then.

I had great fun in that car — until I was victimized by a hit-and-run driver in, of all things, a little red Pinto who fled the scene after she had managed to accordion the front end while running a red light in downtown Detroit.

So my personal relationship with this most idiosyncratic of European automobile brands (part of the General Motors family since 1989) dates back more than three decades.

It seemed appropriate to sample the newest Saab, the redesigned 9-3, on the company’s home turf in Sweden. After a 225-kilometer drive from Stockholm, the capital, north to the province of Uppsala, this amalgam of German-Swedish engineering — much of the new chassis is shared with the Opel Vectra — looks and feels more like a GM product than it does a Saab.

And that’s not necessarily a condemnation.

The biggest stretch is the switch of Saab’s mainstream car from its traditional hatchback body style to a more conventional four-door sedan configuration, a blatant attempt to reach a much broader audience that does not, as a rule, cotton to hatchbacks. This move alone causes the new 9-3 to surrender a good portion of its "Saabness," despite the automaker’s mostly successful efforts to carry over the trademark front-end styling from the previous generation. The new shape is clean and appealing; it’s just not terribly distinctive.

Once ensconced in the cockpit, most traces of the former 9-3 have been erased, except for Saab’s stubborn insistence on locating the ignition switch below the shift lever on the center console (a dubious hallmark that may placate Saab loyalists, but will likely leave newcomers to the brand scratching their heads in puzzlement).

A surprisingly bland and generic instrument panel has replaced what was, at least for me, a striking and very individual interior face on earlier Saabs. The only other real giveaway on the new car, outside of the griffin logo in the center of the steering wheel, is the clever design of the little joysticks that control airflow through the vents.

Rear-seat occupants will find that, with a longer wheelbase and wider body, the new car feels much roomier than its predecessor. Truck space, however, has been seriously compromised in the switch from five to four doors (14.8 cubic feet vs. 21.7 on the outgoing model).

In keeping with Saab’s long-term commitment to world-class safety, standard features on the new 9-3 include antilock brakes, traction and stability control, side air bags for front passengers and side air curtains that extend to the rear compartment.

As I said, the GM-ization of the 9-3 — or, perhaps more correctly, the Opelization — isn’t all bad. The new car is fun to drive, if not particularly memorable. The chassis is taut and compliant (at least on the smooth Swedish roads), the steering progressive and controlled, the brakes crisp and responsive. Both the standard 15-inch tires and the uplevel 17s exhibit good grip, without much sacrifice in ride comfort.

Indeed, the precision and solid feel of the chassis bode well for next year’s replacement for the Chevrolet Malibu. Like the Vectra and the new 9-3, the 2004 Malibu will be built on a version of this corporate platform, which carries the internal GM designation Epsilon.

The choice of turbocharged powerplants includes a standard 2.0-liter four-cylinder that delivers 175 horsepower and a higher-pressure 2.0 that makes 210 horses. Both engines are based on the GM L850 global family that also does duty in Opel and Saturn vehicles, and have been extensively reworked by Saab engineers.

We were able to sample a base 9-3 Linear model with the 175hp engine and an Aisin-Warner five-speed Triptronic-style automatic transmission, as well as the higher-output model with a Saab six-speed manual gearbox (even though the latter configuration won’t be offered in the U.S. until next March).

Both engine/transmission combinations are lively and entertaining, yet don’t provide the same sense of exhilaration and that unmistakable kick-in-the-pants rush that earlier Saab turbos did when the blower suddenly kicked in with a whoosh.

In short, Saab, with a huge dollop of technical assistance from Russelsheim, has created a really terrific Opel — a competent mid-size four-door sedan that is at least as good as the Volvo S60, if not quite competitive in performance, looks and panache as BMW’s benchmark 3-series.

It just doesn’t seem like much of a Saab.

[Irie_eyes]

next thing you will start accusing some GM influence on their jet fighters...

[hiwayman17]

http://www.saabnet.com/tsn/models/2003/6.jpg
http://www.vectra-sport.com/images/Gallery/Sparky.jpg

[kazi]

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Why is it that GM is making Vectra hatchbacks????? And Saab loses it's hatchback?

[/QUOTE]

VERY interesting point. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif