GM Quality?

[hiwayman17]

Chevrolet TrailBlazer LTZ: Third-quarter update


By CARRIE ROCA


(Photo by Roger Hart)
Having spent two weeks this quarter up on blocks, our TrailBlazer still managed to rack up almost 7000 miles. If we had a conventional lease on this vehicle, we’d want to choke someone at GM because of near-constant trips to dealers for diagnostic testing of this problem and that.

The chart details the repairs we’ve had done this quarter alone, but doesn’t reflect our frustration trying to get to the bottom of TrailBlazer’s seemingly endless problems. To wit: It wouldn’t adequately accelerate at speeds over 60 mph in 2wd. One dealer was “unable to duplicate” the problem and found no bad codes. Mysteriously, this problem seems to have disappeared.


Third-Quarter Update
Miles driven: 6983
Fuel mileage: 17.51 mpg
Maintenance: Replaced corroded wiper assembly (no charge); replaced 4x4 switch (n/c); lube, oil and filter ($27.60); replaced airbag module (n/c); replaced wiper timing switch (n/c); stopped evap system leak (n/c); replaced wiper motor and cowl (n/c); lube, oil and filter ($22.53); replaced air conditioner refrig-erant o-ring and seals (n/c); lube, oil and filter ($22.60)



The torque converter control module we replaced last quarter may or may not have resulted in a malfunctioning 4x4 indicator switch we had to replace this quarter.

We put up with a clicking sound coming from behind the gauge cluster. One dealer was “unable to duplicate” this clicking, causing us to speculate it could be related to the evap system leak we’d had. Once the repairs were made, the clicking went away, but then it came back again. A second dealer tightened the wiper and cowl panel and... we’re keeping our fingers crossed.

We initially figured replacing the refrigerant o-ring and seals would solve the problem we had with the air conditioning cutting out. It didn’t. A second dealer was enlisted to fix the a/c. They didn’t. Neither could a third dealer identify the source of the a/c problem. In all, we took our TrailBlazer to four different dealers, one of them twice, in an attempt to fix the a/c. Finally GM itself, alerted to the situation, came down and got our truck. We’re still waiting for documentation on what the problem was and what was done to fix it, but the air conditioner is now working.

Keep in mind, The General won’t be out to pick up the TrailBlazers of the regular Joes out there who are having similar, and in some cases, worse problems with their vehicles. (Believe us, we’ve heard from them.) But if you won’t come out GM, are you at least listening?

[FanaticZ]

whats new dude? news will be when gm IS making good cars.

[CoCo_PuFf]

amen! to that http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

[warrmax]

Hiwayman17- What magazine is this from??

Even with everything I have witnessed first-hand from GM, I honestly didn't think that things were THIS bad.

I was at a dealer about 2 months ago and saw a TrailBlazer EXT (the extended version). The right rear vent window between the C and D pillars was completely loose at the forward part and was being held in place only by the rod that powers the window into the vent position. Shameless lack of quality.

[kazi]

As a 2000 model year Saturn/GM owner (second car belonging to my wife http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif ), the car has numerous of little annoyance fixes like that above. From chattering windshield wipers, flaking chrome on the inside door handles that were cutting people's fingers, air conditioner leaking, 4 trips to the dealer to fix the steering wheel vibration when driving at highway speed, squeeking in the rear hatch that the dealership still can not duplicate but drives me nuts, misaligned door panels, etc.... And all my problems are not isolated. Reading even on the Saturn forum, many people has had very similar problems.

I think some GM drivers are use to taking their cars in for so much warranty fixes that warranty services becomes a normal routine that they're happy about.

[Slack00]

"The sky is falling! The sky is falling!"

...Hiwayman17 goes to great lengths to dig this stuff up...

Hmmm....Maybe I should write my own articles on the internet somewhere...I could talk about how my 240SX motor overheated and warped the aluminum heads ...Or the awful quality of the rubber around my mom's sunroof in her 1998 Honda Accord EX V6: it just disintegrated(!), and now she has all this wind noise...And then there's the fact that the heat from the sun had emitted some vapor from the plastic and permanently discolored the leather around the door handle...or the awful NVH problems we had with her buzzy 1994 Acura Integra LS. I could go on, but I won't.

The point is, there's lemons in every bunch. Its a part of the business. Anyone who knows about statistics and about the realities of production and quality control is that you get some outliers pretty regularly. You can let the awful (and true, no doubt) stories scare you...or you can look at the truth: NOBODY'S cars are consistently (key word!) that bad.

Not all cars come off the production run equally. I can guarantee you that, for every devil outlier of a production run that makes all the scary noise, there is the angel outlier that is completely bulletproof. What production controls is all about is keeping the average quality at a certain level.

And I, for one, think that today's average standards are pretty darn good....

[Slack00]

My sister owned a 1995 Saturn SC2. IIRC, it was bulletproof. Boring, but bulletproof. Never brought it to a dealer.

[kazi]

Have to add that ours was a L series first year model....and you know what they say about GM's first year models. I heard the warning but chose ignored it. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

Again, my problems are replicated by other Saturn owners of the same model, so it isn't just me that is isolated from all these bugs.

[Nismo]

I once met a guy who's sister's first cousin (twice removed) once owned a Yugo and never had a problem.
I once met a girl who's father's brother-in-law's ex-wife once owned a Toyota Camry and had many problems.
Conclusion: Yugos are the most reliable cars and Toyotas are junk?

Gimme a break. Any one person's experience is going to vary; that's why smart buyers often consider the averages. But how should you view the averages? Here's two ways:

Let's say GM comes out with a new car where 8 out of every 100 has a major problem.
Let's say Toyota comes out with a new car where 2 out of every 100 has a major problem.
Some folks will be happy that 92% of the GM cars will not experience a major problem. For these people, GM and Toyota both make good cars since they are both at least 90% problem-free. Others, however, see the obvious: the Toyota is four times less likely to have a major problem than the GM.

[hiwayman17]

I go to "great lengths" to dig up stuff? I read the newspaper, I go to auto websites. It may be a great length to you, but for most of the world, it's quite easy to find news.

[Slack00]

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
I once met a guy who's sister's first cousin (twice removed) once owned a Yugo and never had a problem.
I once met a girl who's father's brother-in-law's ex-wife once owned a Toyota Camry and had many problems.
Conclusion: Yugos are the most reliable cars and Toyotas are junk?

Gimme a break. Any one person's experience is going to vary; that's why smart buyers often consider the averages. But how should you view the averages?

[/QUOTE]

Either you failed to grasp the meaning by my message, Nismo, or you are deliberately twisting my words, because I was trying to illustrate much of what you are saying.

I never said that imports are junk. I was merely balancing the above horror story with the equally rediculous (but true) personal experiences of my own, pointing out the fact that imports are not problemless, either. May I remind you that the article was about ONE vehicle, so my personal experiences about individual vehicles is apopros. I've also had problems with GM products, too, and, as I have said many times before, I agree that import products are, generally, less problem stricken than domestic brands. The data supports my impressions.

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Let's say GM comes out with a new car where 8 out of every 100 has a major problem.
Let's say Toyota comes out with a new car where 2 out of every 100 has a major problem.
Some folks will be happy that 92% of the GM cars will not experience a major problem. For these people, GM and Toyota both make good cars since they are both at least 90% problem-free. Others, however, see the obvious: the Toyota is four times less likely to have a major problem than the GM.

[/QUOTE]

Certainly, the presentation of the numbers can be manipulated to scare people as well. In the above two interpretations, the first example you gave is much more of an informative answer than the second one you gave. You give a perfect example of how spindoctors manipulate the data.

For example, if I were to tell you that you were 100 times more likely, nay, 1000 times more likely to die in a car accident than in an airplane, would that stop you from driving a car? Of course not....because you also know that if there is only a .00001% chance of dying in an airplane, then 1000 times that is only 0.01%, which is still statistically insignificant! Its still practically zero!

What I'm getting at, here, is that (to me), the difference between a 95% probability and a 98% probability means very very little to me. Its not enough to sway me from a vehicle that I would otherwise buy.

The ratio answer you gave me ("four times more likely") does not give me specific enough information. It is not real data, but an analysis of that data. It is an individual comparison. It is true, but it is also misleading...I like to look at the bigger picture, and the objective results. I support a more balanced viewpoint.

The first approach to this reliability analysis answers the question: "How likely am I to get a bad car if I buy X brand vehicle?"

The second approach answers only the question: "How much more likely am I to have problems with X versus Y brand."

To me, the second question isn't as useful as the first. In fact, the second question isn't useful at all unless we have the answer to the first question.

Here's another interesting tidbit: Did you know that most manufacturers could (if they wanted to) make a more dependable vehicle? But a cost/benefit analysis yields that it is not profitable to build a perfect car! It's not worth the cost! So, car manufacturers find out that answer (that quality average percentage which is "good enough"), and they build the vehicle!

Remember, the auto business doesn't exist to make cars, it exists to make money.

[Slack00]

If it's so easy to find, then why don't you leave it there, so the rest of us can find it on our own...

I mean, c'mon, is one tragic story about one mundane SUV really Earth-shattering news? If you were honestly interested in the affairs of world-wide autodom, this story would have no interest to you. That's why it holds no interest to me, and why I continually smell "domestic hater" so much. Which is fine by me, it's just I wish I wouldn't have to bear it so much in a respectible, public place such as FreshAlloy.com. ...I appreciate Nismo; he does a much better job of biting his tongue about his disdain of domestics or his irrational love affair with Hondas...

(...That was a friendly swipe, Nismo... http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif ...you know I appreciate having someone to argue with...)

/rant

[FanaticZ]

seriously, i could dig up dirt on any brand car. a couple cars having problems isn't an accurate portrayal of the whole brand. family members have owned fords/gms/dodge and they really haven't been bad cars, maybe one or two minors problems-no more than the imports. the overall quality of materials though seems to need some work, that would be my only 'real' complaint.

[hiwayman17]

Me posting something from a magazine or online mag is no different than anything you post...what's the problem here? I personally trust the opinions of a magazine more than I would trust the personal opinion of a poster here.

The long term test is an interpretation of something factual. A personal opinion is an interpretation of something that I have no idea of what its origin might be.

[hiwayman17]

Do I understand this correctly....now it seems Nissan lovers also love GM cars?

[culalty]

GM has really hit the crappers with me. Still on my 2001 Impala the ignition keeps on failing(That's time no 10)
and now to make matters even worse, the computer is malfunctioning. For example when I went to fill up and after the car is full,
the message center says "low fuel" after I put 22 bucks worth of gas in the tank. The change oil light comes on and I just got it done a week back.
I am in a lawsuit with GM now, I am hoping they take this poor piece of so called "GM Excellence" Because if my Impala suppose to represen that,
GM is about to go under. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif

[FanaticZ]

it doesn't matter what u post, but u have already posted this. i would assume if autoweek got a lemon 6 months ago it would continue to be a lemon today.

i for one don't hate any car company, if anything i want ford/gm/chrysler to be on top which obviously isn' t the case.

[Nismo]

</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Nismo, [are you] deliberately twisting my words?

[/QUOTE]Not deliberate; purely accidental (or maybe subconscious).
</font><blockquote><font class="small[/img]In reply to:</font><hr />
Nismo...does a much better job of biting his tongue about his disdain of domestics [and] his irrational love affair with Hondas.

[/QUOTE] What can I say; the love affair grows stronger after every autocross, track event, and daily commute. I'm sure one of these years I'll experience my first problem, and when that happens, Honda be danmed! http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif

[Irie_eyes]

"Do I understand this correctly....now it seems Nissan lovers also love GM cars? "

No. Nissan folk don't like the extent of your biased bullsh-t against GM.


Why? Maybe they are car enthusiaists.

I forget what magazine it was, I think it was Car and Driver's long term Altima tester...
"Shifter feels like rowing a screwdriver in a bowl of rocks"

So true...

[SHIFT_6speeds]

I am a nissan enthusiast that loves GM cars of YORE. You will find that out in the thread "best decade for cars". When GM went to crap, I bailed out. My father was a mechanic, and we did enough repairs to last me a lifetime on GM vehicles. Coming from a GM loyal family, that is sad. GM lost us. It was by their on doing. GM has been crap for many years now, and it saddens me to have to say that.
http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

[warrmax]

I am not a complete "Domestic Hater". GM seems to put most of their engineering dollars into their pickups and larger SUV's. And it shows. As far as Ford is concerned I had a terrible experience with a new Ranger back in '95.....Ford will NEVER get my money again.

There are a couple import brands that I would probably never own either: VW's seems to have a lot of electronic problems. Mitsubishi seems to have an overall quality problem. I draw these conclusions from what I have read in Car &amp; Driver and Motortrend over the years and it seems to hold true.

[Irie_eyes]

I personally ONLY like certain GM products, particularly the musclecar era.
It's either a RWD, V-8, and I usually like big cars.
When you boil it down to the current GM lineup, I only really like the F-bodies, Vette, and all their trucks and SUVs relative to other SUVs. Turbo Buicks, Calias 442, Opels...I like
Everything else kinda sucks to me, probably because I'm not exactly their target market. Similar people like me are now losing faith in GM because they usually have RWDs.
It's probably why I also prefer certain previous Nissans.
Interiors and quality are major issues to me, since I'm not much of a new car buyer. I prefer used and fix them up to my tastes.
I think this is one of the best car forums out there because a lot of people are not totally biased and are brand haters (unlike the Honda folk). I have probably learned a lot about GM FWD V-6 just from this site.