You think you know.....

[HARDDRIVE]

Stating my opinion....

Its clear to me that some of our "self-proclaimed Nissan enthusiast" here, are not 100 and 10% behind the very product that they suppose to be.

Perhaps if they 'actually' knew the dollar amount that it took to bring such a 'high quality' vehicle to the North American market, they might have a more insightful and healthier appreciation for 'vehicle pricing' once it gets here. At some point, the fantasies and delusions of what Nissan isn't worth to some of you simply must end. Against its competitors, "dollar for content" i.e. for what you get for what you pay...find 1, if you can and post it here and prove me wrong. Top to bottom...inside and out....

The real problem that Nissan has a bit of a hard time is that, people like the ones here, spew their unsubstantiated
unsupported spiteful rhetoric, talking about things that are doing Nissans' image and credibility "all harm and no good"! Not to mention, tainting 'would-be-buyers' of Nissan products.

If you a real fan...then be a real fan...

I think the real issue is within you folks...in so much as, its not that Nissans aren't worth every penny (they indeed are), but rather your 'beef' is with actually paying a decent profit to your local dreaded dealer...isn't?!!
For a $30,000.00 investment a dealer should be allowed to make a $2,000.00 profit in which the 'hated' Sales Rep receives approximately 20% of that figure after the dealership takes about on average, another $500.00 for their B&O (business and operating expense). Now you do the rest of the math.

I must be the only here who feels that if a product is truly a fine specimen...it deserves to be purchased at a decent profit as well...

[**DONOTDELETE**]

spoken like a true salesperson. you NEED to be 110% behind the product you sell. as a consumer i DON'T. i have choices! sounds to me like you're just upset that not everyone thinks nissans are the best. oh, and i am a fan of nissans because they make great products at great prices. i don't blindly follow nissans like a lemming. it is fully my right to criticise nissan for what i feel is a shortcoming. i'd much rather hear consumers here with genuine praise and complaints, than biased propoganda from a nissan salesperson.

as for pricing, i used to work for tony nissan a long time ago, so i am fully aware of the expenses involved. people don't mind paying a fair price. some people insist on 0 markup, which is also unreasonable, but by and large, most people are reasonable. many dealers are greedy and gouge prices on hot vehicles like the murano. THAT is what most people really hate.

thank you.

[MURANIML]

The Murano is an amazing car. Great looks and a pleasure to drive. However, it's too expensive. I think Nissan priced it that way because it's "new". In my opinion, the Pathfinder is a step above the Murano. It's similar in price and you get way more for your money. Not to mention, the Pathfinder is an SUV and the Murano is a car with monster wheels. But, I have to hand it to Nissan... I'm still thinking of getting the Murano just for the novelty of it (and the fuel savings). Damn the price!!

[ownersite]

Absolutely no offense is intended by this (as we have butted heads before and that's not my intent here) but as the salesman, instead of calling potential Nissan buyers "spiteful" why don't you simply convince them why their opinion of the Murano being overpriced is not valid, rather than calling them out in this manner.

If they are comparing the Murano to what Nissan itself is comparing it to, the Pilot for instance, it IS overpriced. Tell us why a loaded Murano is WORTH $5000 more than a loaded Pilot. Or for that matter, why they shouldn't spend $2000 more on an Acura MDX?

When talking about potentially spending $35,000 or more for a vehicle (or $40,000+ at the gouging dealerships), "because it's a Nissan and I consider myself a Nissan enthusiast" is simply not enough for most buyers.

By your own post (http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Murano&Number=67206073&pag e=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1), Murano sales are "brisk" for you and your customers are all happy, so what is your basis for complaining about consumers voicing their opinions here? They do not appear to be affecting you or your dealership's ability to make money.

(as an additional note, I had the misfortune of selling cars for Manhattan Jeep/Eagle in the early 90's, so I am also well aware of car dealership economics)

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Two issues here:

Nissan's step-up package pricing. The way Nissan structured
it, it does look like Nissan is out to get consumer! What
does a sunroof have anything to do with leather or VDC? If
sunroof, HID lights, VDC and Navigation are all stand alone
options, I'd venture to say 70% buyers will have what they
want in the $32-34K range and be happy!

Second, greedy dealers. You said yourself, "For a $30,000.00
investment a dealer should be allowed to make a $2,000.00
profit" (still too high, btw), yet you are hyping your
dealership for selling at MSRP! You and us all know the 4000+
profit will not go to Nissan to cover the cost that "it took
to bring such a 'high quality' vehicle to the North American
market".

A guy on Edmunds reported he bargained the price down to 500
over invoice, and it will give dealer a 1500 profit. We're
very happy to see there are good Nissan dealers out there
that are trying to make a honest living.

['97 S14 SE Turbo]

One thing many fail to understand is the cost of the CVT. When the rear drive hypoid CVT first came out, it was an $8,000 option for a luxuary car in Japan. I would figure that this FF based CVT would be $5,000 in cost since this is a higher volume, and the only FF based CVT on the market than can handle a 3.5L engine.

So before many of you go off on a witch hunt for the high price of the Murano, look at it's CVT...

[HARDDRIVE]

You of all people.... http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

They indeed are worth every penny Nissan priced them, I think everybody interested already saw invoice figures.

Everything on top of that marked up by you, greedy dealers, isn't worth to be paid. What the hell? 90% of us people here are educated customers and they KNOW what they want BEFORE going to dealer. You DON'T do any job to sell the product (to us) beyond charging your "reasonable" profit. And the ONLY reason we go to dealers is because, how stupid, there's just no other way to get a car.

ATTN: guys in the Bay Area, who are offended by crying shame of local dealers' markups, go to www.carsdirect.com (http://www.carsdirect.com) and order for MSRP. But better yet wait few moths and let this artificial hype to fade out.

[HARDDRIVE]

My dear friend, "ownersite"...I do welcome your 'civil' disagreemnts, however, not 1 of you offered a shred of proof or support for your view as to why the Murano isn't (top in its class) or how its content (safety,performance,styling,fuel economy,technologies,innovation 1st and pricing) falls short of being worth where its priced at in the market compared to its competitors. The burden is on YOU guys..not me.

I seriously question alot of these recent 'posters' here...I mean, where do they get off??? I question their intent and whole validity being here...with only a handful of post and all negative http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif Yeah you got a right to your opinions...only, to me , they don't have merit til I see some strong proof as to the Murano's not-worth-it-ness and competive
disadvantage. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif

[ownersite]

A comparison of facts and figures (not opinions) based on the categories you provided. In contrast to what you stated, the onus is on YOU to convince the buyer otherwise why your offering is superior.

PERFORMANCE (HP & TORQUE):

Honda Pilot: 240hp/242 ft-lbs.
Nissan Murano: 245hp/246 ft-lbs.

Similar figures. The Murano's additional weight may increase braking distances and acceleration times but without actual figures from the Murano, who can say definitively how they honestly compare in braking. Personally I could care less about 0-60 times. Let the high school kids worry about that. But if that concerns you, Consumer Guide claims 0-60 in 8 seconds under hard launch with the Honda Pilot. I've heard that we should expect high 7 second times for the Murano. Both will tow a couple of personal watercraft without any difficulty. And both will get me confidently and swiftly around the semi clogging up traffic on I-285.

FUEL ECONOMY (CITY/HWY):

Honda Pilot: 17 mpg / 22 mpg
Nissan Murano: 20 mpg / 24 mpg

Again, fairly close? Enough to justify a $5000 cost difference? And remember, these are EPA averages. The BIG number on my current vehicle's window sticker is 17. I've never surpassed 14. Others I know have hit 19 with the exact same vehicle. All three figures fall within the EPA average estimates. Too close to call IMO.

STYLING:

Purely subjective. Some people will be willing to pay $5000 more because they simply prefer the styling. Facts and figures do not enter into styling. Based on pictures alone, I far prefer the styling of the Murano over the Pilot. My Wife exclaimed, "Wow, what is that? I really like that." when I parked next to a green Pilot at Costco the other day.

SAFETY (source Edmunds.com):

Honda Pilot Crash Test Results:

Passenger: Excellent
Driver: Excellent
Side Impact Front: Excellent
Side Impact Rear: Excellent

Nissan Murano Crash Test Results:

Passenger: Not Tested
Driver: Not Tested
Side Impact Front: Not Tested
Side Impact Rear: Not Tested

The list of safety features for each vehicle include:

For the Honda Pilot:

Anti-Lock Brakes: Standard
Four Wheel Anti-Lock Brakes: Standard
De-Powered Airbag: Standard
Passenger Airbag: Standard
Head Airbag: Not Available
Side Airbag: Standard
Child Safety Seats: Not Available
Traction Control: Standard
Stability Control: Not Available

For the Nissan Murano:

Anti-Lock Brakes: Standard
Four Wheel Anti-Lock Brakes: Standard
De-Powered Airbag: Standard
Passenger Airbag: Standard
Head Airbag: Standard
Side Airbag: Standard
Child Safety Seats: Not Available
Traction Control: Optional
Stability Control: Optional

It's tough to say that the Murano has any edge in safety. There is no hard data to prove this right or wrong. The Pilot and MDX are known to be safe vehicles. There is empirical data to back that up.

TECHNOLOGIES & INNOVATION:

The Murano has the CVT. The Pilot has a VTEC motor and Variable Torque Management four-wheel drive (VTM-4). Perhaps a toss-up? Both offer DVD-based navigation systems and rear seat entertainment systems. The Pilot rides on a mini-van platform. The Murano on a car platform. Is the CVT enough to justify the price difference?

PRICING (assuming MSRP of what I would be looking for):

Murano SE AWD loaded w/Navigation: $37,885
Honda Pilot EX loaded w/Navigation: $32,980

Despite what you would like to believe, these vehicle are far more comparable than not. You wanted proof of my (and perhaps others?) position. While I cannot or do not claim to speak for them, this the "proof" that I am working with in how to spend my next (potentially) $40,000.

Assume now that I just walked into your dealership and was consider the Honda Pilot. Why is the Murano better? Or, will you simply tell this "up" that if they fail to see why it's better they should simply buy the Pilot?

Despite recently labeling me a "troll" I do consider myself an educated consumer and hopefully the information I provided above will be proof that I am not here simply to badmouth Nissan. I am here to learn all that I can in order to make an informed buying decision.

The information I have found on this site (including some from you HARDDRIVE) has been invaluable to me. I will continue to leverage the practical and factual knowledge provided by the members of this site in helping me to decide what our next vehicle will be.

As another sidenote, I operate a web community similar to FreshAlloy, only with nearly 35,000 members. The give and take between the members is what constantly improves the vehicle we represent as enthusiasts and potential buyers.

[squid]

I'm not very happy with the conduct of my fellow "professionals" in this forum. Not that I'm taking the side of the nit-picking cheapskates, either.
The Murano has a few clear advantages over the Pilot. I've driven the Pilot, just to get that out of the way. It is a very nice vehicle. The Pilot handles like a 'hog on wheels', and the brakes aren't anywhere near as responsive. I do think the Pilot may have a bit softer ride, but that's for you to decide.
BUT, you can't get the following features on the Honda Pilot: VDC, wheel and tire set up, curtain air bags, adjustable pedals, 2nd row adjustable shoulder belt anchors, satellite-radio-ready head unit, dual zone climate controls, rear seatback releases in cargo area, rear vented disc brakes, front seat active head restraints, auto on/off headlights and on top of it all, the inner fender covers on the Murano are better suited ti keeping nastiness out of your engine compartment.(that means something here in WI) Oh, and I almost forgot, Nissan's transmissons aren't downshifting and locking up on the highways causing bad accidents. I'm not trying to be overly emotional about this debate, just stating what I know is fact. Honda's marketing/production strategies don't allow for much choice, hence lower production costs. The price difference, however, isn't an issue because I can't afford either of them, by far. I am a car salesman after all. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/ooo.gif

[dmmattix]

While I was looking all that up on Edmunds you posted it. The problem I have with Hondas in general is that 'loaded' is a relative term for Honda. Everytime I have looked at a Honda I leave saying why did they not offer some option.

BTW - you missed the memory seats and pedals that are in the loaded Murano that aren't available on the Pilot. The real thing to pick on Nissan about this the combination package purchases they force you into, not the total price. Also against Honda is the long waiting list and the standard markup on the Pilot(just like the Odessey was for the first couple of years). Edmunds shows the Pilot TMV to be $1100 above MSRP while the Murano to be currently at MSRP.

Honda makes very fine vehicles however they think $500 is a huge discount. Just shop the Murano in Jan/Feb against the Pilot, I bet you will be suprised when you get the dealer price for each. Shop around and see what you can 'get' each vehicle for as Nissan dealerships are used to negotiating while Honda dealerships are not. BTW, I got my G35 for over $1000 under MSRP this first week it was available, my Infiniti dealership (who also is a Nissan dealer) always gives me a fair and their best offer the first time.

Mike

[jberger]

I was trying to post this a few hours ago, but once again charter pipeline went down. Now I come back and see that the tone has changed. So this may not be seen as relivant but here goes anyway. . .

I don't have a problem with anyone making a profit. Businesses have to make a profit to stay in business, so as long as it's a far profit, more power to em. As a consumer, I bargin for the lowest fair price, that's my job in the process. But I will pay a premium for better than average service because I want it.

I'd rather buy from the local guy, because when I need him, he's just down the street. That being said, my local Infiniti dealer leaves much to be desired and based on past experiance, they will have to compete on price to win me back.

If you continually shop only based on price, don't complain when the service sucks or you can't find a local dealer. Business must make a fair profit to stay in business, that's the point. I'm not saying you should pay wayyy too much, but remember that a fair profit is just that, fair.

On to packages and pricing.
If you don't like the packages or prices, don't buy and tell the sales rep why you're not buying. That's how the company will take notice and make changes.

When a vehicle is new, the easiest way to bring to market is with fixed packages and few options. Over time, the option list will expand and flexability will be added, but not in the inital launch. Nissan will need time to adjust to the market conditions. The best laid plans still need to be altered to met the real world.

Everyone keeps comparing the car to the pilot and highlander, but I still don't think it's a fair comparison. Pilots and Highlanders are for people who need a minivan, but don't want to be seen driving a minivan. Just because the prices are similar doesn't mean it's the same market.

Murano buyers will be looking for Sport and Style, where the Murano has a clear advantage. If people need a 3rd row seat then this vehicle is already out of the running. I honestly think the closest competitors are the full loaded Trailblazer (GREAT MOTOR, awful build quality) MB M Class, Lexus RX, or Acura MDX.

I think the true target market, is someone who wants a sporty car, but needs the space, towing and awd capabilities (soft road only) provided by an SUV. They'd rather have a sports car, but clearly need more room.
That's not the same as a Highlander/Pilot buyer in my book.

[ownersite]

Now we're getting somewhere. This is the kind of feedback that is helpful! Thank you jdw and dmmattix.

Just a quick (and intended as friendly, not argumentative) counter to jberger's comments on the Murano's competition...

While I definitely agree with the points you have made, based on what I have read on this forum, Nissan itself is comparing the Murano to the Pilot and Highlander in its training programs, so they do see it as their direct competion. (with a 9 month old, I guess I am caught in middle ground!!)

Of course, this does not mean that people will not cross-shop the Murano with luxury or near luxury brands like the Acura MDX, Lexus RX300 or ML320 (?) they might. But Nissan will have a very hard time competing with these dealers based on the ownership experience alone, forget about price. They will also likely cross shop other SUV's that have been mentioned here, including their own Pathfinder, the 4Runner, the Explorer, etc. Salespeople should be prepared for these comparisons, IMO.

Regarding pricing, Honda and Acura seem to be able to stick to their guns and offer little in the way of discounts. However, I would argue that the Pilot will likely hold its value better than the Murano, not based on speculation, but rather based on historical evidence or Honda vs Nissan resale values.

Anyway, please keep the advantages coming. The memory seats, adjustable pedals, dual zone climate controls and remote folding seat are very nice features. For the most part, isn't VDC really just Nissan's marketing term for traction control, which the Pilot also has?

As far as the transmissions that lockup and cause accidents, can you point me to more information about this? I checked the NHTSA website and was unable to find any recalls for the Pilot. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif

[squid]

VDC is Nissan's version of the ESP systems used by Porsche, Chevrolet(Corvet) and other VDC-like systems with the other manufacturers. It utilizes the wheel-spin sensors on the wheels(ABS/traction control systems) along with a separate yaw sensor and control box to help control over and under steer. With regular traction control, the drive wheels are kept from excessive spinning. There is a big difference. Just for your own information, go check it out. It helps to make the 3,900 pound Murano a very stable, confidence inspiring drive. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif

[jberger]

Correct,
But VCD is a poor excuse for no LSD option.

VDC is a huge advancement over the typical "traction control" because it takes yaw into account. But from a true "sports car" perspective. VDC without true limited slip just plain sucks.

[squid]

The Murano isn't a sports car. The 350Z has the VDC and the LSD though.(the VDC has a convenient little block out switch under the dash, in case you feel a good drift coming on)
http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

wow. you go away for a couple days and when you come back the whole site is flinging mud at itself. it's this kind of "dialogue" that ensures consumers and salespeople will continue to see each other as what they are now: enemies. That's too bad...my local dealer is great. I'm sure they turn a pretty profit but they rank tops in the region in customer satisfaction. maybe it's a little feel good about me, but i prefer great service over buying a car for a couple hundred dollars less somewhere else. I agree with jberger (as usual, it seems), if you get good service locally but choose to save a little money by going somewhere else, don't complain when you don't get the same caliber service...where you bought, or at the place down the street.
as for comparisons, I wholeheartedly agree with jberger (again). The murano doesn't compare to the Pilot. it's not an issue of quality, it's just that the vehicles are designed for different people. Specifically, Nissans are designed for people who are a little more aggressive in their tastes and in their performance expectations. That's why we, or should I say "I", love Nissan. Hondas, Toyotas, Volvos...they're successful at appealing to a larger group of people. But when you appeal to the masses, you're going to get watered down design, not 18" wheels. Not bad, just not my style.

[squid]

Finally, a couple of people without sacks of biting flies up their butt's! http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/ooo.gif

[MuranoFANATIC]

Did you take the time to actually go to the Honda site and build a pilot....IU just did almost $35,000. Your statement is BS. PLUS the honda has obselete styling, and MANY features not even available on the Pilot AT ANY COST. IF you post post truths not BS.

[ownersite]

BS? Well that's a valuable and insightful addition to this conversation.

The Honda site is exactly where I got the pricing of $32,980. The same price is listed at Edmunds.com for an EX w/Leather and Navigation. I did not select any dealer installed options for the Pilot, nor did I choose any "Port Installed" options for the Murano for the pricing noted in my post.

I don't know if this will work, but here is the link to the configuration page (http://www.hondacars.com/tools/customize/Step7.asp?MODEL=YF1873ENW&MODELNAME=PILOT%205DR%20 EX-L%20NAVI&DIVISION=A&SERIESNAME=Pilot&SERIESID=10&Y EAR=2003&VIEW=34FRONT&MGROUPID=10&MODELYEAR=2003&M ODELID=YF1873ENW&STEP=7&FUNCTION=configurator&TITL E=PILOT+5DR+EX-L+NAVI_12/3/2002+9%3A09%3A58+PM&ECOLOR=NH-638M&ICOLOR=GR&SELECTED=&INCLUDED=&REQUIRED=).

[jberger]

Relax guys, it's a car, not a child.
Let's keep it on a discussion of the facts not personal attacks.

Honda builds great cars, and they have wonderful resale value. But they just don't get me excited.

[MuranoFANATIC]

I only chose options that make the murano comes with!!

IE-6 disc changer, fog lights, etc

You don't know what your talking about period.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Agree with jberger. My wife and I have owned several Honda/Acura and they have all provided great service but........I agree they are boring. I'm looking at buying an SUV and it will likely be the Murano, which I've driven four times now, I think it's the sports car of all SUV/Crossovers that are currently out there, at least one's I can afford. I think the MDX is a good competitor but more af a utility vehicle and less sports oriented.

[Not_Vin_Diesel]

O.K., everyone needs to get over it -- the Pilot and Murano are for different tastes. The Pilot is a replacement for the Passport and therefore is a competitor for the Pathfinder -- not the Murano. The Highlander is another story, considering that it and the Murano are built on car platforms. This is a useless argument because if you are looking for something with blander styling, a third-row seat, a minivan feel and minimal option choices, you are a Pilot buyer, price be damned. If you want something with in-your-face styling, more of a sporty feel, various options and combos, you are a Murano buyer, price be damned.

If you're a lawyer and you're buying pants for work, the thought process isn't, "I need pants with pockets. I will buy these blue jeans because they have most of what I need in pants and best of all they're $40 cheaper than dress slacks." You pony up for what best suits your need. By the same token, if you're in construction and need to buy pants, your thought process isn't, "I need pants with pockets. I want the most expensive pants so I will buy dress slacks." People need to buy what suits their need in a given price range. If you're going to spend between $33 and $35 grand on an SUV, you need to weigh what your needs are and choose based on this. Need a third row? Pilot. Need adjustable pedals? Murano.

One last point: If we're going to keep believing that Honda is just guaranteed to always have better resale value, or will always sell more of whatever vehicle because they have in the past, then why don't we just suggest that all companies that are not Honda or Toyota close operations. In the words of Chris Berman, "That's why they play the game!!!!" If you think that the Pilot is guaranteed to have better resale value than the Murano, then you obviously haven't set foot inside the Murano. This is supposed to be an ENTHUSIAST website. Show some frickin' enthusiasm!!!!! How about, "this may be the vehicle that pushes Nissan's resale value to Honda's level." By the way, when you do your math on the resale value of Nissan's vehicles, you'll find that the Honda resale superiority myth is about as real as the myth that Volkswagen's have overrall better build quality than GM. Don't talk to me, talk to JD Powers. If you don't support the vehicles on the site you post on, grab a lollipop and go play on a Civic Si or Celica enthusiast site somewhere. This is FRESHALLOY. http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

[UltimateAltima]

IMO it's a choice of a fancy new ball or an enlarged old box http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif
just joking well im just trying to keep it simple here
Nissan understand the fashion and knows all people want it, and it has to be affordable. Honda, on the other hand, knows how to keep their brand name shine so people will buy it no matter what, here's what they usually say "No reason Because It's a Honda" http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif

[**DONOTDELETE**]

People can and will post what they want, not what you think they should. Honda bashing doesn't make the Murano a better SUV, let it stand on it's own two feet. I like the Murano but that doesn't mean I have to think Hondas are crap.

[jberger]

I don't think anyone said Honda's were poor cars, just bland. I think Honda makes a fine engine and a good car, it just doesn't excite me.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Yes, I agree they tend to be boring. I think Nissan/Infinity is on the right track with some of their new designs/colors/powertrains etc. Where I live the Murano is selling like hotcakes, I visit several Nissan dealers regularily trying to see all the color combinations etc and cars are coming in and going out on a regular basis. I see one on the road most days now.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Feliz,

Where DO you live? Without the information in your profile or your post, it keeps us guessing...

Here in Connecticut, Muranos are still 2-3 weeks away. If anyone knows of any within 75 miles of the Mass/NY/CT corner, please let me know.

[**DONOTDELETE**]

Hi Linzybel, I live on the west coast of Canada, we've had Muranos here for three weeks. We had a favorable write up on the Murano in the weekly "wheels" section of our local paper and that got a lot of people into the showrooms looking and a lot seemed to end up buying. I've taken four test drives and regardless of what you might think about its looks it's a fun car/SUV to drive and well put together. Hope you get them soon. Regards.