AWD & RWD: Wave of the Future?

[M_TYPE_X]

http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/wheel11_20031211.htm

[Jonny_290]

*cheers*

detroit steel's *meant* to push rwd, in my opinion. Bring it on!

and a 300-340hp blown awd grand prix might be quite a spirited ride. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

Bonneville will be moving to RWD in its next generation, I believe. I think the Impala/Monte Carlo are also slated for RWD. As for Buick, V6 FWD days may be nearing to a close... if GM is actually serious about "American Lexus," they will move to V8 RWD Park Avenue/LeSabre. It looks to me like Buick will continue to truckify (includes minivans and other Mutantmobiles), while they continue a FWD V6 nameplate and a RWD V8 to replace their full-size sedans.

Ford will be sticking with FWD for the Five Hundred/Montego, although they are talking about AWD availability as mentioned in the press. Who knows what the future is for the "Panther" (Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis-Marauder/Town Car) series, although you can expect Ford will always have some sort of RWD V8 car around.

Dodge Magnum will have three engines available: 190hp 2.7L V6, ~250hp 3.5L V6, and da Hemi. What's more important to me is the exterior design ... looks pretty good from what I see, even a remote-release fuel tank door [wow, Detroit, you've found the last quarter of the 20th Century finally]!
But I think you might see a lot of 190 hp Magnums if the car does sell ... and very few Magnums overall if the car doesn't sell. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif The LX line is quite a bet.

[M_TYPE_X]

As for the Japanese marques, obviously Toyota and Honda nonlux will stick with FWD, and if you see a RWD Acura RL coming out, I'd be surprised! I'm still scratching my head about the Maxima ... yes, you can get the RWD VQ35 fun with the G35, but if the Maxima was to be a true flagship for Nissan, it should be at least available with AWD, if not RWD.

Mitsubishi doesn't do RWD. Mazda does small FWD cars well, and arguably "sporty" weird RWD cars (with strange engines and bodystyles)! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Subaru IS AWD. Let's try this again, kids. Subaru = AWD.
Will be on the exam, and don't give me any "but this exam question is outdated because Subaru is doing RWD concepts," because I'll ask you what crack tabloid you're getting your info from! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[skee79]

I just want to know why it takes Detroit so long to realize this "people want more RWD and AWD cars" trend, and then acts like it was their idea in the first place. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
So after Subaru, BMW, Mercedes, VW, Porsche and Saab (I know, GM) have success with AWD, they think its a good idea.
And after Infiniti, Mazda, BMW, Porsche et al start having success again with RWD, suddenly that's a good idea too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
And by the time the Americans catch on, the trend will have reversed again http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

And by the time [Detroit] catches on, the trend will have reversed again http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif




http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Nismo]

RWD is making a comeback in the U.S. for the same reason that large, heavy vehicles have made a comeback here: historically-low gas prices. In the long run, I think Toyota and Honda both have the right idea. But in the short run, I can easily see how an auto industry executive might equate RWD with dollar signs.

For most potential buyers, RWD is just a sales gimmick, similar to large-diameter wheels, dual-exhausts, and 4-piston brakes. Most people don't need the extra 0.5-1% performance advatange that RWD offers over FWD; in fact, most drivers are better off with the extra safety margin provided by FWD (like when they round a turn a little too fast and instinctivly stab the brakes!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

People who buy a RWD car because of its 'performance advantage' but who don't know what a traction circle is, have never heard of trail-braking, and who don't understand what controlled weight-transfer means should definitely not be buying a RWD car for its 'performance' potential. /rant

[Misfit]

......and who don't understand what controlled weight-transfer means should definitely not be buying a RWD car for its 'performance' potential. /rant



Amen - my father-in-law is a typical Buick driver - what does he really give a damn about RWD for ??? He ain't gonna hang out the rear end..... (at least not deliberately)

[M_TYPE_X]

RWD is making a comeback in the U.S. for the same reason that large, heavy vehicles have made a comeback here: historically-low gas prices. In the long run, I think Toyota and Honda both have the right idea. But in the short run, I can easily see how an auto industry executive might equate RWD with dollar signs.

For most potential buyers, RWD is just a sales gimmick, similar to large-diameter wheels, dual-exhausts, and 4-piston brakes. Most people don't need the extra 0.5-1% performance advatange that RWD offers over FWD; in fact, most drivers are better off with the extra safety margin provided by FWD (like when they round a turn a little too fast and instinctivly stab the brakes!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/crazy.gif).

People who buy a RWD car because of its 'performance advantage' but who don't know what a traction circle is, have never heard of trail-braking, and who don't understand what controlled weight-transfer means should definitely not be buying a RWD car for its 'performance' potential. /rant



Hyundai's lineup already works for 95% of American drivers as it is. Who needs RWD sport coupes and SUVs? Just castrate all the GM 'mongers and put 'em in Hyundais. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

......and who don't understand what controlled weight-transfer means should definitely not be buying a RWD car for its 'performance' potential. /rant



Amen - my father-in-law is a typical Buick driver - what does he really give a damn about RWD for ??? He ain't gonna hang out the rear end..... (at least not deliberately)



Buick's FWD V6 cars are fine for a lot of people, but is Buick upscale or is it not? A lot of people want Buick to be upmarket and be strong, like it was arguably back in the day of Detroit dominance. Personally, I don't see a need for Buick to do RWD V8 cars. They should be prevalent in the Pontiac and Cadillac lineups (sporty), while Buick should be the upscale equivalent of Chevrolet (more mass-market).

In any case, talking about Buick as a division in reality (not in marketing terms) is a moot discussion. It's just another distribution channel, as far as GM is concerned. Buick will truckify and probably get a copy of the upcoming RWD V8 platform (STS, then GXP, then Buick LeSabre/Park Avenue replacement). Buick will go down to 2, or maybe 3 "car" models while they get more minivans and SUVs. Already, for 2005, Buick has the Terraza and Rainier, and will probably* continue the Rendezvous, while it dumps the Century and brings out the replacement for the Regal.

* Of course, if GM drops the Aztek for 2005, I don't know for sure whether or not the Rendezvous will follow. Despite being fugly and overpriced, they sell ... to the GM families around here. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif But with the Terraza around, I don't know if GM thinks it makes sense to continue the Rendezvous even though the Aztek brother will meet the discontinued-model heaven in the sky. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Misfit]

True - I was not really thinking in the "upscale" sense - I was thinking primarily in demographics - Buick (and Caddy here in cda) have a demographic profile of 60 to death

That is not a demographic needing RWD - neither does the soccer mom demographic - maybe 4WD there - also add the "a car is to get you from A to b" crowd - they now that gas goes in one end & that is it. The "meat & potatoes" mid-market cars that these groups buy don't need RWD for any performance reason - maybe 4WD for safety purposes -

My wife has an Outback Sport - just because the 4WD is "safer" in her perception - she definately does not drive it like I do !!!!

[M_TYPE_X]

Counterexample Time! Plenty of old people LIKE and BUY the old-school Panther cars from Ford (Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Town Car) because they like the full-frame, full-size, V8 RWD power.

Buick, Cadillac, and Lincoln together are still the largest sellers of upscale cars in the US, although Benz and Lexus are gunning for them. Remember, just like all other domestic products in any economy you can think of, they offer the best upfront "value" in terms of what that market values (US market traditionally thinks more lux means larger car, for example) but don't have the enviable demographics that importers have (i.e. average Lexus buyer has more education than the average Buick or Cadillac buyer).

So, the problem is appeal. Not every 21-year-old should be able to buy a Buick or a Cadillac, but they should be able to aspire to them. After all, they embody "American" values (George W Bush is a GM lifer, apparently). The domestic upscale brands need to appeal to lot of people with cash and not just people whose idea of a luxury car is rooted somewhere in 1977.

It's not a secret: Lincoln has suffered because Ford hasn't spent the money on platforms that could be used to make nice Lincolns. Instead, they dumped money in Britain and Sweden . I'm going to agree with Jerry Flint here: Ford can pin a lot of its future on Jaguar and Volvo, but these buyers will usually be weirdos anyway, and the domestic luxury powerhouse should continue to be Lincoln - instead of Lincoln being the "division on life support" as it serves a dying customer base and gets prepared to jump in the grave of the last buyer.

The longer-term problem for the upscale marques is this: people who buy Chevrolets trade up to Buicks, people who buy Fords trade up to Lincolns, people who drive Dodges trade up to Chrysler, Toyota to Lexus, Honda to Acura, Nissan to Infiniti ... but if your entry-level and even mid-level (Mercury, Oldsmobile) lineup is weak, you'll lose the buyer from the "family" and they'll defect and try out the competition's higher-end product cold-turkey (i.e. first time buyers of Japanese cars with Lexus LS in the garage). If your Cavaliers and Saturns, or Corollas and Sentras, suck ... then you're in long-term trouble.

[Misfit]

Vewy Vewy interesting - I thought "trade up" think died years ago - I remember an American article a few years ago that said "brand loyalty" was dead - I know it is for me - I know what I like in any market segment & I if aspire to move up into a more different segment - it will most likely not be the same brand ....

[M_TYPE_X]

Vewy Vewy interesting - I thought "trade up" think died years ago - I remember an American article a few years ago that said "brand loyalty" was dead - I know it is for me - I know what I like in any market segment & I if aspire to move up into a more different segment - it will most likely not be the same brand ....



Spoken like a true Nissan customer. Toyota, Honda, Subaru, and BMW enjoy excellent widespread brand loyalty. Audi, SAAB, Nissan, etc enjoy enthusiast loyalty, and GM/Ford/Chrysler enjoy the loyalty of people who get discounts by virtue of employment or family ties.

Despite being RWD, the Chrysler LX cars will be seen around Detroit ... the employees have to drive something! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I'm including Subaru under "widespread" and not "enthusiast," because buyers stick to Subaru for AWD the same way Toyota people stick to Camrys and Siennas for 'reliability' ... there is nothing to do with motorsports or knowing about engine power, or being fanatical about the brand a la Audi or Nissan people.
BMW has moved away from enthusiast to mass-market yuppie brand loyalty.

[Misfit]

Spoken like a true Nissan customer ...



<<chuckle> Have been over the decades: Nissan Customer, Acura Customer(Integra), Subaru Customer (outback sport), GM (Sierra), Plymouth (Sundance), Volvo (240GL)

edit: gawd - almost forgot - my first car was an AMC Pacer - bwaaa haaa haaaa .... that was an 'experience'

[M_TYPE_X]

I meant "current" Nissan customer. Nissan customers "shop around" more than the average Honda or Toyota brand-slave.

[s13SRmadness]

interesting conversation, guys.
to whoever said the comment about 1% performance advantage- you should seriously think that over...
sad the general car buying public has to ruin it for the people who enjoy cars.
do the "point A to point B" people aggravate the hell out of anyone else here?
they drive me nuts...
you know, the people who dont even go their local jiffy lube to get their oil changed and then wonder why their car breaks down....
such is the world.

anyone here have hard numbers on what % cars sold are "enthusiast" cars? (define that as loosley as you like)

[M_TYPE_X]

anyone here have hard numbers on what % cars sold are "enthusiast" cars? (define that as loosley as you like)



Including people who like to sometimes go 5 mph over the spend limit in their Camrys, approx 85% of cars are sold to enthusiasts!!! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[Nismo]

To whoever said the comment about 1% performance advantage- you should seriously think that over.



It was a quote from Niki Lauda (two-time Formula 1 World Champion: once with Ferrari, once with McLaren). RWD is a better platform for a sports car, but FWD is not as disadvantaged as some would have you believe. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Misfit]

.... anyone here have hard numbers on what % cars sold are "enthusiast" cars? (define that as loosley as you like)



Look at sales numbers I think - the top selling vehicles are usually the 4 door family hauler - Taurus / Camry et al - and what percentage of "enthusiast cars" that are sold (ie BMW) are bought by enthusiast rather than by brand status.

Unfortunately enthusiast cars are a niche market in % terms. Low volume / high price companies like Porsche et al can do it - but for the mass market manufacturers - you need that volume in the middle of the bell curve ....

[chiphead]

Detroit is coming out with decent RWD cars like the GTO and CTS-V but it will take more than a couple of good cars to change the perception that they are serious about the enthusiast market. When the Lincoln LS came out, I knew it would be a poor seller and Lincoln would pull the plug on the DEW98 based sedan or worse let it stagnate like it has because American car companies want immediate success and they don't have the patience to give it a few generations to polish its product. They're using the same 5 year old platform to launch the new Mustang, and it will probably sell like hot cakes for the first 2 years, then fizzle like the PT Cruiser and the Tbird.

As of now, the family sedans from Detroit are suffering because they've given up on the market segmant. It's not as profitable as SUVs and pickup trucks. It was only 15 years ago that the Taurus was considered a benchmark for how to make a family sedan. The early 90's Chrysler started the minivan and controlled the market for a few years until Honda and Toyota took over the market. I see the same thing happening with pickups today. Who knows, in a few years, the American car companies will be a pale shadow of its former self unless they do something drastic. I think the executives in Detroit should be alarmed, and I don't see them scrambling like they should. They're operating on a "don't fix until it breaks" mentality. Detroit does make decent cars but they need to keep improving them and not sit on their lazy asses. They need to learn from Microsoft where they keep chugging away at their [censored] products until it finally becomes world class.

[s13SRmadness]

oh, it's obvious the % figure would be low.
i'm just curious how low...
low enough to ignore?
or just low enough to make lame attempts to placate...

[M_TYPE_X]

It depends whether or not you want to count cars like the 300C and Magnum (upcoming) to be "enthusiast" cars. Many of the people who do buy the 300-Series from Chrysler will be wanting the whole upmarket domestic sedan type of package and the fact it is powerful and RWD may not mean so much to them. Apparently, the Magnum is targeted right at enthusiasts.

Again, it depends how you define enthusiast and enthusiast car as terms. I'd put a lot of Celica, Accord, Integra, Altima, and so on drivers in the category, and take a lot of G35 Sedan drivers out that you might want to include.

[Misfit]

oh, it's obvious the % figure would be low.
i'm just curious how low...



Often lose money low - Chrysler lost a bundle on every prowler it sold - but it gets people into the show room - then they hope they drive away in a Caravan - All retail markets do the "loss leader" thing ...

[M_TYPE_X]

oh, it's obvious the % figure would be low.
i'm just curious how low...



Often lose money low - Chrysler lost a bundle on every prowler it sold - but it gets people into the show room - then they hope they drive away in a Caravan - All retail markets do the "loss leader" thing ...



Chrysler gets enough showroom traffic, but unlike a Honda dealer, where the majority of showroom shoppers are buyers, the Chrysler dealer visit is statistically shown to end up in a sale much less than most other makes (GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, etc).