2dr Sports Cars dead?

[chiphead]

With the high end 4 dr sedans performing close to what the 2dr sports coupes from a couple of years back, do you think the days of low-end porsche and ferarris are gone? Say a Carrera 4s, you can get a luxurious sedan like an E55 that is faster, has more hp and arguably better driving experience for everyday driving, all for less money. Other examples include an Altima could concievably outrun a Boxster, an Accord has more hp than a BMW 330. HP used to be a fair measure of performance, but those days are long gone. I think once Honda/Toyota/Nissan get used to building RWD sports sedans, people will leave the BMW/Audi/MB in droves because their last vestige of "premium-ness" will be unmasked for good.

[Kookz]

No, there's nothing like the coziness of a 2dr for a hot date http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jonny_290]

No, there's nothing like the coziness of a 2dr for a hot date



haha, i can see that with the average FA member's car

*wheeeeeeeeee*fuel pumps kick in.....
"sorry bout the seatbelt, here's a harness love"
crank crank crank sputter VROOM
"aieeeeeeee!"
*squeal*
*maniacal laughter*

Anyways, i digress. 2door sports cars are definitely still alive, just not on the dealer lot. You'll hardly find a more devoted group of fans than the drivers of such cars. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Umi_R98]

aww nuts you mean to tell me that Aston Martin is making a 4-door Vanquish to replace the coupe? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think coupes will be around till forever, more sportiness always.

[BrianS]

2door is about style, not practicality or performance

otherwise why would anybody EVER buy the 2 door version of a car that is aviable with 4 doors, when both have essentially identical performance and interior space (3 series BMW for instance)

and ULTIMATEY you just cant get the same weight, drivetrain layout, and weight distribution with a practical 4door car that you can with a 2 seater or 2+2 2door car

[M_TYPE_X]

Oops Communism dead Liberal Democracy ascendant End of History kumbaya Francis Fukayama kumbaya time for the Self-Congratulation Party by invite only oops what do we do now?? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tear.gif World Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all men, etc etc every Joe Sixpack in a Lexus Type R.

... rumors of the death of the two door sports car are likewise highly exaggerated. Toyota/Honda/Nissan take over & take control & own all with their sedans, but there's always an Osama Bin BMW around to shake things up.

Last I checked, even with a heck of a lot of mods and work and afterburners, an Accord couldn't hang with a new M5 or S4 ... and the Honda even has VTEC [ http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/shocked.gif ]!

Save your alarmism for when the Manual Tranny dies. ohhhh manual gearing, how we so much loved you.

http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[MOMO831]

With the high end 4 dr sedans performing close to what the 2dr sports coupes from a couple of years back, do you think the days of low-end porsche and ferarris are gone? Say a Carrera 4s, you can get a luxurious sedan like an E55 that is faster, has more hp and arguably better driving experience for everyday driving, all for less money. Other examples include an Altima could concievably outrun a Boxster, an Accord has more hp than a BMW 330. HP used to be a fair measure of performance, but those days are long gone. I think once Honda/Toyota/Nissan get used to building RWD sports sedans, people will leave the BMW/Audi/MB in droves because their last vestige of "premium-ness" will be unmasked for good.






2door is about style, not practicality or performance

otherwise why would anybody EVER buy the 2 door version of a car that is aviable with 4 doors, when both have essentially identical performance and interior space (3 series BMW for instance)

and ULTIMATEY you just cant get the same weight, drivetrain layout, and weight distribution with a practical 4door car that you can with a 2 seater or 2+2 2door car






You guys made some good points but I beg to differ. If the 2-door sport car ever becomes extinct it wont be because a 4 door replaced it. Currently we have a Miata in our stable, that car is a little under powered otherwise a blast to drive. I’m a hair over 6”1’ and have a tough time getting in and out of the car, the trunk is about the size of a shoebox. My point is there is nothing pratical about our 2-door sport yet will never get rid of it. If anything we would trade up for another 2-door sports car i.e. 350z, S2K, or the Lotus Elise.

The Elise is arguably already the best handling car and it’s making its way to the states improved for 2005. It will be lighter, better handling, and have more power. The only cars that will be able to hang will be exotics, now you are telling me that this can be replaced with a 4-door, now way Jose! Sure other cars may be sporty but will never be able to match the pure fun factor that only a true 2-door sport car can provide!

[chiphead]

The Elise is arguably already the best handling car and it’s making its way to the states improved for 2005. It will be lighter, better handling, and have more power. The only cars that will be able to hang will be exotics, now you are telling me that this can be replaced with a 4-door, now way Jose! Sure other cars may be sporty but will never be able to match the pure fun factor that only a true 2-door sport car can provide!




The Lotus is going to weigh 154 lbs more compared to the Euro version and will have softer dampening and ABS brakes, futher diluting the "pure-sports" motif of the Elise.

For an eye opening experience, watch a video of TopGear comparison of the STI and the Evo8. The road course results for the Evo were within 5 seconds of the Zonda and actually beat out exoticx like the Alpina Z8 and the Murcielago.

On the high end, the E55 has beaten out Z06 in R&T in their 0-100-0 test.

[chiphead]

2door is about style, not practicality or performance

otherwise why would anybody EVER buy the 2 door version of a car that is aviable with 4 doors, when both have essentially identical performance and interior space (3 series BMW for instance)



I agree.



and ULTIMATEY you just cant get the same weight, drivetrain layout, and weight distribution with a practical 4door car that you can with a 2 seater or 2+2 2door car



For pure racing I agree, you want the most power with the least weight and less air drag dictates that you get rid of miscellaneous features. However for passenger cars, the inclusion of rear seats has little to do with how "sporty" it is. The reality is that it is usually a measure of its intended market rather than any performance aspiration. A 2 door e36 M3 will not magically handle better because of less doors than the 4 dr.

[M_TYPE_X]

If 2-door sport cars die off and get replaced with 2+2 GT coupes with heavy instrumentation and automatic transmissions, a la many Mark III Supras, or Subaru SVXs sold...

... I will cry crocodile tears all year long.
" http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tear.gif " hahaha

[BrianS]

A 2 door e36 M3 will not magically handle better because of less doors than the 4 dr.



no, but an M3 might perform better if you shortened the wheelbase and choped 6 inches of lenght and 150lb off, then moved the engine and driver backwards and the rear axel a little farther forward...essentially making it a 2door sports coupe (and yet none of this would further decrease the already limited 'practicality' of the 2door)

that was the point i was making, that by designing a car exclusively as a 2door sports coupe you can take advangage of weight distribution and overall weight advantages that are not reasonable if you want to sell a car as 2 or 4 door...because essentially it must be designed as a 4door car, minus the rear doors

certainly if toyota decided that for 1999 they wanted to sell the supra as a shared platform 4door and 2door car, compromises would have to be made in weight, its distribution and layout (and those comprimises are in store for the next supra/is300 twins)

look at the G35 2dr vs 4dr...the coupe makes a LOT of size and weight and layout sacrafices from a performance standpoint because of its 4door counterpart, and im not even getting into how much extra fat the FX added to the poor little 350z, hehheh


that rant was a little long...i realize platform sharing is a necessary evil, but i really wish car manufactures would keep their flagship cars and sports cars exclusive

the s2k is the best example of this right now...the s2k is JUST a roadster, honda did not make any comprimises, no sacrafices, it is what it is in its pure form, and it does everything it was built to do that much better because of it

*edit

i have always thought that since the s13s and s14s are just 2+2 sports coupes, that nissan should have taken the oppertunity to design them a little better tward that market, namely moving the front wheels forward to shorten the overhang a bit, and the rear wheels forward a little closer to the doors, that would have given a slight rearward weight bias

and i think moving the front wheels forward would improve the cars appearance a lot also

[s13SRmadness]

evryone relax...
2 door sports cars are going nowhere.
the manual tranny will be around quite a while yet as well. i can assure everyone that they will not be replaced by any tranny with a tourqe converter...
RWD is here to stay as well.
so- although my favorite cars are no longer in production there will be many new favorites coming in the future. 2 door, manual transmission, RWD sports cars have a place in the car market.
dont let the FWD, auto, 4 door guys get to you. (let them think they're driving sports cars too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif )

[MOMO831]

The Elise is arguably already the best handling car and it’s making its way to the states improved for 2005. It will be lighter, better handling, and have more power. The only cars that will be able to hang will be exotics, now you are telling me that this can be replaced with a 4-door, now way Jose! Sure other cars may be sporty but will never be able to match the pure fun factor that only a true 2-door sport car can provide!




The Lotus is going to weigh 154 lbs more compared to the Euro version and will have softer dampening and ABS brakes, futher diluting the "pure-sports" motif of the Elise.

True true but what you forgot to mention is that, well don't take my word for it read for yourself.

2005 LOTUS ELISE
We drove a prototype U.S. Elise on the test track and on country roads around the Lotus factory in Norfolk, England. As we first wrote of a similar exercise with the original Elise, it's a hoot. For pure sports-car thrills, it's in the top five most-entertaining cars available. The same comments apply to the federalized Elise, which, although it is 450 pounds heavier than the original, is faster and better equipped but still has nearly perfect balance. It is the best Elise yet, and for Americans wanting a race car for the road, it's worth the six-year wait. Lotus Cars USA, which has been subsisting on the sale of a handful of Esprits a year, hopes to expand its annual sales to 2500. Not much this side of an exotic supercar will keep up with it on a racetrack.
Source: Car and Driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=7371&page_num ber=1


For an eye opening experience, watch a video of TopGear comparison of the STI and the Evo8. The road course results for the Evo were within 5 seconds of the Zonda and actually beat out exoticx like the Alpina Z8 and the Murcielago.

On the high end, the E55 has beaten out Z06 in R&T in their 0-100-0 test.





I saw somewhere (I think it was MT) where they were comparing exotics sport cars and they threw in a Mitsu Evo for comparisons sake and it fared faily well.

[chiphead]

I saw somewhere (I think it was MT) where they were comparing exotics sport cars and they threw in a Mitsu Evo for comparisons sake and it fared faily well.




Yup it placed 4th in front of the M3 and Z06.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?print_page=y&section_id=3&article_id=2 21&page_number=1&preview=

I've read articles where the Audi RS6 is able to keep up with the 911 Turbo, and another where it beats it (albeit in the snow). The M3 CSL has been able to keep up with the 911 GT3 at the Bedford Autodrome in the UK. This from a car that shares the platform with a humble 3 series sedan. I'd also wager that the upcoming M5 would give the Viper a run for its money.

[M_TYPE_X]

dont let the FWD, auto, 4 door guys get to you. (let them think they're driving sports cars too. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif )



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif Who the heck do these losers think they are?! What poseurs! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[Kookz]

The M3 CSL has been able to keep up with the 911 GT3 at the Bedford Autodrome in the UK.

Considering the price of the CSL...it better.

[LeapingGnome]

What about the new Supra coming out - shouldn't that be 2 door coupe?

[M_TYPE_X]

What about the new Supra coming out - shouldn't that be 2 door coupe?



We have no real information on it, but if one is spawned, it will have a similar form and function to the 350Z, many people believe. It won't have the VQ engine, though. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I differentiate between "sports cars" and "sport coupes" ... difference between a S2000 and a Prelude, I mean.

[Nismo]

I've read articles where the Audi RS6 is able to keep up with the 911 Turbo, and another where it beats it (albeit in the snow)



LOL. And lets not forget that time when I knocked out Mike Tyson (albeit with both of his arms tied behind his back). http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[G35/Turbo2]

If you want a harder edge Elise, get the LSS package (Lotus Sport Suspension). That will get you a car lowered a inch, with stiffer suspension, Yoko A048 tires, wider in front... basically a street legal track car. About 1/2 the weight gain compared to the Euro car comes from the new drivetrain. Still it's going to be under 2000 lbs.

Would agree in general, two door sports car aren't as popular as they had been. Then that tends to go in cycles, think we're on the upswing in that regards.

[s13SRmadness]

What about the new Supra coming out - shouldn't that be 2 door coupe?



We have no real information on it, but if one is spawned, it will have a similar form and function to the 350Z, many people believe. It won't have the VQ engine, though. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I differentiate between "sports cars" and "sport coupes" ... difference between a S2000 and a Prelude, I mean.


wow... couldn't have said it better myself.
hey, mtx- what do you consider your car?

[M_TYPE_X]

Integras are poor man's personal-luxo-sport coupes. I go out and hunt SC300s and SVXs, Preludes and MX-6s. Toyota dealers and literature call the Celica a "sports car" (maybe they even say something like "no compromise" or something crazy like that). A lot of Integra owners tradtionally trade up to Accord coupes or BMW 3-Series.

I'd include 350Z, Corvette, Porsche 911, maybe the RX-8 under "sports cars." Definitely the GT-R.

MR2-Spyder and MX-5 Miata are "toys" (mini sports cars).

Exotics include NSX, Ferraris, Maseratis, and so on.
According to Mitsubishi people, Eclipses fall under this category. I guess wack styling and a strange or different nameplate makes a car "exotic!" http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jonny_290]

The Integra is NOT a sports car in the academic sense.

traditionally, it's defined as short wheelbase, EDIT: RWD, light, high-revving NA engine (usually a 4 Cyl), manual transmission. Even more dedicated purists say that only roadsters and verts are true sports cars.

Refer to MG and Austin Healey for 'traditional' sports cars.

the Miata follows the true heritage more closely than just about anything out there, barring the s2k.

[Nismo]

Ok guys, please don't turn this into another what makes a 'real' sports car thread.

[M_TYPE_X]

Well, then I have no need for pure sports cars then. I like AT and 2+2, wouldn't mind a turbo here and there, and leather on the seat would make a nice option.