Honda...what is the point of this?

[CoCo_PuFf]

what is the point of this. Acura will be showing a TL A-spec concept at the LA auto show. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

http://4hs.org//pv/2003/12/11/HON2003121168716_pv.jpg
http://4hs.org//pv/2003/12/12/HON2003121236821_pv.jpg

<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/dopoll.php[/img]<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="1071581090CoCo_PuFf[/img]


Acura has a good think with the TL. Do you think that Acura depreciates the prestige factor from their cars with their A-spec packages? and why/why not?
<input type="radio" name="option" value="1" />YES
<input type="radio" name="option" value="2" />NO
<INPUT TYPE=Submit NAME=Submit VALUE="Submit vote" class="buttons[/img]</form>

[skee79]

I thought it was already out? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif TL A-spec (http://www.fast-autos.net/acura/acuratlaspec.html)
http://www.fast-autos.net/acura/tlaspec.jpg

[M_TYPE_X]

I don't care for A-Spec nor did I care for Type-S. But Honda wants to play the same game as the other tuner programs for other automakers, and it wants to play the same marketing game with alphanumeric model designations.
Weaksauce. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/mad.gif

[joeB]

Is the TL going to get rear drive soon? Car and Driver
complained about the tourqe steer. Its fast though,
0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

Is the TL going to get rear drive soon? Car and Driver
complained about the tourqe steer. Its fast though,
0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif



it should be fast with 270HP, but the funny thing is that Motor week got 6.3 with the same car......C/D must be more agressive with their launches.

[CoCo_PuFf]

I thought it was already out? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif



exactly, so what's the point of doin a concept if the real deal is already out.....maybe they're planning on making a more agressive version with more power at a cost of 10k.....IMO for 5K the current A-spec package should have more power and AWD......screw all the cladding and ricey bodykits. this car has potential, but it's getting the rice treatement IMO.

['87 Sentra]

I agree, Honda should keep the body kits to themselves and offer AWD instead. That would be much more believable.

[M_TYPE_X]

Is the TL going to get rear drive soon? Car and Driver
complained about the tourqe steer. Its fast though,
0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif



The TL isn't going to get RWD before the Maxima does, and because we are talking about upmarket cars on Accord and Altima platforms... the question is ... when are the Accord and Altima moving to RWD?

"ooooh ooooh MTX, I got the answer to this one: NEVA EVA!"

Exactly. 'For every stupid question, there is an equally stupid (obvious) answer!!!' http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[skee79]

From Honda News.com:
The Acura TL A- SPEC Concept vehicle will make its debut at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show. This extensively modified TL is an exercise built to explore the next level of performance accessory possibilities for Acura's best-selling sedan.

Based on the all-new 2004 TL, the TL A- SPEC Concept takes the performance theme to the extreme, with a combination of aggressive styling, powertrain enhancements and racing-inspired interior modifications. Styling highlights include a wider track, 21-inch alloy wheels, wide fender flares, redesigned front and rear fascias and a full-length glass roof.



21 inch wheels http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Full length glass roof http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
So I take it they were obviously concerned about performance http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

http://asian-links.com/images/fc31rice1.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

Some pretty plain, bland rice you got there in that bowl. Why don't you ... dress it up? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

http://www.gracefoods.com/Grace_Ontario/LAMB%20CURRY.jpg

here you go

......oh and just in case

http://www.kikkoman.com/contents/products/pro_img/syoyu.gif

[NissT]

From Honda News.com:
The Acura TL A- SPEC Concept vehicle will make its debut at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show. This extensively modified TL is an exercise built to explore the next level of performance accessory possibilities for Acura's best-selling sedan.

Based on the all-new 2004 TL, the TL A- SPEC Concept takes the performance theme to the extreme, with a combination of aggressive styling, powertrain enhancements and racing-inspired interior modifications. Styling highlights include a wider track, 21-inch alloy wheels, wide fender flares, redesigned front and rear fascias and a full-length glass roof.



21 inch wheels http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Full length glass roof http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
So I take it they were obviously concerned about performance http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



Why did you leave out this phrase:
“powertrain enhancements” ???

[skee79]

From Honda News.com:
The Acura TL A- SPEC Concept vehicle will make its debut at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show. This extensively modified TL is an exercise built to explore the next level of performance accessory possibilities for Acura's best-selling sedan.

Based on the all-new 2004 TL, the TL A- SPEC Concept takes the performance theme to the extreme, with a combination of aggressive styling, powertrain enhancements and racing-inspired interior modifications. Styling highlights include a wider track, 21-inch alloy wheels, wide fender flares, redesigned front and rear fascias and a full-length glass roof.



21 inch wheels http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Full length glass roof http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif
So I take it they were obviously concerned about performance http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



Why did you leave out this phrase:
“powertrain enhancements” ???



I left the phrase in my quote, just didn't highlight it. powertrain mods...hmm, its already got an available 6-spd, LSD, VTEC w/ all the trimmings...dont think anything's going to happen to make it too much more powerful. Maybe they'll add an extra 20 horsepower.
Look at the rest of the enhancements:
aggressive styling
racing-inspired interior modifications
My point was that performance enhancement doesn't seem to be the big highlight of the package. Any "powertrain enhancement" will probably be outweighed by the added weight of a glass roof and some heavy ass 21" wheels
http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

not to mention that if the TL gets any more power it'll have more torque steer, and I don't think it would get any more than 10 HP because the NSX is right around the corner.

considering that the current A-spec package is a total waste of money, I don't see this second option being anything short of a rip off.....I would take the car as it is and add my own mods thankyou. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

what is the point of this



<font color="green[/img] MONEY </font> !!!

http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[joeB]

Is the TL going to get rear drive soon? Car and Driver
complained about the tourqe steer. Its fast though,
0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif



it should be fast with 270HP, but the funny thing is that Motor week got 6.3 with the same car......C/D must be more agressive with their launches.



They usually do get different times.

[joeB]

Is the TL going to get rear drive soon? Car and Driver
complained about the tourqe steer. Its fast though,
0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif



The TL isn't going to get RWD before the Maxima does, and because we are talking about upmarket cars on Accord and Altima platforms... the question is ... when are the Accord and Altima moving to RWD?

"ooooh ooooh MTX, I got the answer to this one: NEVA EVA!"

Exactly. 'For every stupid question, there is an equally stupid (obvious) answer!!!' http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I wasnt a stupid question, the TL is supposed to be
competing with cars like the Infiniti G35. That is why
the Tl should of been rear drive when it came out.

But the Tl is just another piece of carap, like every
other Honda. The Altima has the accord to compete with,
a car with the Acura name should compete with Infiniti
cars. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif Let the 04 Maxima compete with the
toyota avalon, seeing how both these cars are in a league
of their own.

[Jonny_290]

New! The Acura TL with such features as:

- Crappy body kit that you just want to replace anyways
- Full length glass roof for those $5,000 glass repair fees whenever somebody smashes it to steal your stereo, or just to be a punk
-21" torque-robbing rims, as if you had excess to play with, Honda
-WIDE FENDERS LOOK AT THE POWER OH MY GOD THIS THING IS FAST

lol.

[FanaticZ]

it might be like the tsx concept that was shown a while ago with the 350hp hybrid system. i don't see how offering a performance package would take away from the acura brand, its just a very expensive package for whats included.

[NissT]

New! The Acura TL with such features as:

- Crappy body kit that you just want to replace anyways
- Full length glass roof for those $5,000 glass repair fees whenever somebody smashes it to steal your stereo, or just to be a punk
-21" torque-robbing rims, as if you had excess to play with, Honda
-WIDE FENDERS LOOK AT THE POWER OH MY GOD THIS THING IS FAST

lol.




Ignorance http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[jaje]

some of you guys need to get over yourself and off your high horse

yes i'm disappointed they didn't have awd on this car to compete more effectively with the g35 or the 3 series...but the tl is a huge seller with ~5k cars a month...in fact its one of the best selling luxury cars on the market (something the i35 couldn't do but the es300 still can)

if you were in charge of the tl line and just switched to rwd and lost those customers you'd be fired in a hurry...people buy it b/c fwd has its advantages

[Nissan_Admirer]

Is the TL going to get rear drive soon? Car and Driver
complained about the tourqe steer. Its fast though,
0 to 60 in 5.7 seconds. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif



it should be fast with 270HP, but the funny thing is that Motor week got 6.3 with the same car......C/D must be more agressive with their launches.



Can you say "dumping the clutch"? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

some of you guys need to get over yourself and off your high horse

yes i'm disappointed they didn't have awd on this car to compete more effectively with the g35 or the 3 series...but the tl is a huge seller with ~5k cars a month...in fact its one of the best selling luxury cars on the market (something the i35 couldn't do but the es300 still can)

if you were in charge of the tl line and just switched to rwd and lost those customers you'd be fired in a hurry...people buy it b/c fwd has its advantages



Jaje, IMO the TL doesn't need to be RWD. I'm just saying that for the rip-off prices that they're charging for the A-spec package, they should at least bump the power and add a part time AWD system to handle the torque steer.......otherwise the car is a better buy just the way it is and they should ditch the A-spec crap and just offer the same parts seperately in theri parts department. any one that buys the A-spec package is doing so because Acura is making them believe that it's a higher class of TL, but in reality it's just "pre-packaged rice" for 5k (8-10k CDN i assume http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif)

another thing. I'm not saying that the A-spec itself makes the TL lose it's prestige, I'm saying that the design of the package looks like it belongs on a Civic.

[Nismo]

The [TL] is a better buy just the way it is.



Yep.

[M_TYPE_X]

The [TL] is a better buy just the way it is.



Yep.



Acura's claim to fame is that they don't go crazy on options packages and pricing at all. Every car they sell is fully equipped. This is why this A-Spec shizzle needs to be panned for what it is - overpriced junk.

[FanaticZ]

thats the best part, its an option. something honda/acura desperately needs, options.

[M_TYPE_X]

thats the best part, its an option. something honda/acura desperately needs, options.



No they don't. I don't want to see standard features removed from the Acura line and put into options packages. It's one of their strengths versus other marques.

An Accord EX would include everything I want except for leather on the steering wheel. I wonder if you could get them to add that without leather seating... probably not.

[Nismo]

Something honda/acura desperately needs, options.



I disagree; one of the selling points of Honda and Acura is the lack of bloated factory options and factory options packages. Just pick your trim level and everything comes standard. For short-term profits then yes, options packages are the way to go--they were invented by marketing majors to be sure--but for long-term brand loyalty, I like the fact that I don't have to wade through a sea of profit-enhancing options when buying a Honda or Acura. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Edit: As much as I like the lack of options, I can already see some cracks in the current Honda philosophy on the matter. One needs look no further than this thread.

[jaje]

Jaje, IMO the TL doesn't need to be RWD. I'm just saying that for the rip-off prices that they're charging for the A-spec package, they should at least bump the power and add a part time AWD system to handle the torque steer.......otherwise the car is a better buy just the way it is and they should ditch the A-spec crap and just offer the same parts seperately in theri parts department. any one that buys the A-spec package is doing so because Acura is making them believe that it's a higher class of TL, but in reality it's just "pre-packaged rice" for 5k (8-10k CDN i assume http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif)

another thing. I'm not saying that the A-spec itself makes the TL lose it's prestige, I'm saying that the design of the package looks like it belongs on a Civic.

though it costs a lot of money at least you have the option to haggle over the price...i've never paid msrp for anything from a dealer except my wife's milano red tsx (extremely rare color)...though b/c we paid msrp we got a mp3 player installed for free so that is $400 we got off msrp in my consideration

if i was considering purchasing an a-spec package i'd definitely knock at least a grand (US Dollars) off that price...you are finding the dealers low price if you have to walk out the door to get them to budge

[FanaticZ]

if acura had a similiar system to honda it would be fine. instead everyone is forced to get the model with all options. its like a g35 being 38k and thats it, instead of having choices from 28k up to 38k. thats the whole point of luxury, being able to customize something the way you like it. if you like everything then i guess thats fine, but if not, its not.

[CoCo_PuFf]

if acura had a similiar system to honda it would be fine. instead everyone is forced to get the model with all options. its like a g35 being 38k and thats it, instead of having choices from 28k up to 38k. thats the whole point of luxury, being able to customize something the way you like it. if you like everything then i guess thats fine, but if not, its not.



Agreed. If one wants a Powerful V6 from Acura but can't afford the TL sticker, what's the next choice for them?....a TSX, but a TSX isn't Powerful (maybe for a 4banger) or a V6. this is what makes the G35 look more attractive to a customer, because unlike the two entry Acuras you could get a G with a V6 for a little more than the TSX.....if RWD is a concern, you can now get AWD.

to me it makes sense. the TL is a fabulous car, but if they added options and dropped the base price Acura would be making a killing in sales.

[M_TYPE_X]

Acura has a different philosophy; they don't want to sell stripped models and they want to be considered as a true lux alternative.

Can't afford the TL and like FWD Hondas? You'll get an Accord V6. Statistical and survey data shows it. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

Acura has a different philosophy; they don't want to sell stripped models and they want to be considered as a true lux alternative.

Can't afford the TL and like FWD Hondas? You'll get an Accord V6. Statistical and survey data shows it. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif a "luxury mark" Acura is not and with things like A-spec who are they trying to kid?....their latest interiors are nice, but the overall look and feel isn't there yet......someone on this forum put it best, they said Lexus, BMW, MB are first tier luxo marks; Infiniti, Audi, Jaguar, are second tier luxo marks; and Acura, Buick, Saab, are third tier luxo marks (or something like that)

yeah they can buy a Honda but luxury buyers, whether it be entry level or top of the line, aren't looking for or at Accords. some people don't like sunroofs, some people dont like leather, and some people like midsize cars and V6s.

[Nissan_Admirer]

Acura has a different philosophy; they don't want to sell stripped models and they want to be considered as a true lux alternative.

Can't afford the TL and like FWD Hondas? You'll get an Accord V6. Statistical and survey data shows it. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif a "luxury mark" Acura is not and with things like A-spec who are they trying to kid?....their latest interiors are nice, but the overall look and feel isn't there yet......someone on this forum put it best, they said Lexus, BMW, MB are first tier luxo marks; Infiniti, Audi, Jaguar, are second tier luxo marks; and Acura, Buick, Saab, are third tier luxo marks (or something like that)

yeah they can buy a Honda but luxury buyers, whether it be entry level or top of the line, aren't looking for or at Accords. some people don't like sunroofs, some people dont like leather, and some people like midsize cars and V6s.



And a lot of people like Infinitis! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[NissT]

Acura has a different philosophy; they don't want to sell stripped models and they want to be considered as a true lux alternative.

Can't afford the TL and like FWD Hondas? You'll get an Accord V6. Statistical and survey data shows it. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif a "luxury mark" Acura is not and with things like A-spec who are they trying to kid?....their latest interiors are nice, but the overall look and feel isn't there yet......someone on this forum put it best, they said Lexus, BMW, MB are first tier luxo marks; Infiniti, Audi, Jaguar, are second tier luxo marks; and Acura, Buick, Saab, are third tier luxo marks (or something like that)

yeah they can buy a Honda but luxury buyers, whether it be entry level or top of the line, aren't looking for or at Accords. some people don't like sunroofs, some people dont like leather, and some people like midsize cars and V6s.



There is a huge difference between choosing leather / cloth / sunroof / no sunroof / heated seats / no heated seats AND choosing the type of wood, the color of interior, type of wheels, type of paint color etc.
If you are buying a stripper G35 or BMW 3, please, don’t kid yourself, it’s not a luxury car. What it the reason for buying a stripper or barely opted car? If you want to look rich, well, people who don’t know anything about cars will not care, people who know something about car brands may think that you are “cool”, and people who know about cars will generally look at you and chuckle.
If you are really buying a luxury car (and you have the money and you don’t want to be a pretender), you are not choosing between heated / non heated and leather / cloth. You are looking at esthetics and power trains.
However, I understand your point on TSX vs TL in terms of power. People with TSX budget that want more power/room, don’t have any choice in Acura lineup. At least for now.
About Infiniti being with Audi and Acura with Buick and Saab…. If you read reviews, most of them agree that Acura is up there in terms of quality and refinement with Audi (which is usually a bench mark, not only for interior). None complain about lack of choice, quiet opposite. No matter what you or me may say, you experience luxury when you drive and interact with the car, not when you choose a car. How is Infiniti up there with Audi, I don’t know, other than power train choices maybe (AWD or not).

[FanaticZ]

so a car isn't a luxury car unless its optioned out? that argument doesn't hold any ground as the price gets higher. like buying a 55k "stripper" ls430 and saying its not a luxury car because you didn't get the 70k optioned out one.

[Nismo]

so a car isn't a luxury car unless its optioned out? that argument doesn't hold any ground as the price gets higher. like buying a 55k "stripper" ls430 and saying its not a luxury car because you didn't get the 70k optioned out one.



I understand what you're saying; it does depend on the vehicle. I don't consider a a vehicle with vinyl seats, manual climate control, and no navigation system to be much of a luxury vehicle--even if it is a BMW 3-series--but even a 'stripper' 7-series counts as real luxury in my book, even if it doesn't have the optional 6.0L 12-cylinder engine.

[NissT]

There is no such a thing as a stripper LS430. So called “stripped” LS is more luxurious that any other car in it’s class. Again, options don’t necessarily dictate the luxury. It’s the top notch quality and refinement.

The only major LS options are Navi, Mark Levinson, and climate control seats. By the way, which can ONLY be had with bunch of other gadgets that you probably don’t necessarily need. So LS is not luxury if you can’t separate them?

If you can’t buy LS because it’s too expansive - sunroof is standard and HIDs are standard and leather is standard, etc…… then this car is not for you, sorry, look at ES or somewhere else.

Acura TL and TSX may be FWD, but they are ALMOST up there in terms of quality and refinement with Audi. To say that they are not luxury (or luxurious) as Audi because you can’t option them out is simply wrong.

G35 can be optioned out and it’s RWD, but it is not up to the quality of TL. Yeah, I know, it was designed when Nissan was still in financial trouble, but it’s still a fact.

[Nismo]

G35 can be optioned out and it’s RWD, but it is not up to the quality of TL.



I hope you're wearing a fireproof suit. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[NissT]

G35 can be optioned out and it’s RWD, but it is not up to the quality of TL.



I hope you're wearing a fireproof suit. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/blush.gif



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif If some one thinks it is, they either have their own quality standards or they refuse to accept it, or they are blind.

[FanaticZ]

this is about options and being able to chose what someone prefers in their car. the ls has the premium, modern, custom, and ultra packages. obviously a 55k is going to have more standard equipment than a 30k car, but the idea is still the same-starting with a base model and moving up in price to a loaded model. the tl could have an interior as nice as a bentley, i still think it sucks that they force a buyer to have all options at the highest price.

[NissT]

this is about options and being able to chose what someone prefers in their car. the ls has the premium, modern, custom, and ultra packages. obviously a 55k is going to have more standard equipment than a 30k car, but the idea is still the same-starting with a base model and moving up in price to a loaded model. the tl could have an interior as nice as a bentley, i still think it sucks that they force a buyer to have all options at the highest price.



There will always be people who think it sucks and people who think it's great. And that's fine, I just think it's wrong to think that a car is less luxury if it comes loaded and you can't "unload" it. IMO, leather, good stereo, HIDs, power everything, sunroof, should be a default for a luxury brand. IMO, the only things that TL doesn’t need as a standard equipment are XM radio and bluetooth. But it's probably going to cost more to make them optional than to just add them as a standard feature. Just my opinion.

[Nissan_Admirer]

On the side topic of TL's quality ... just check out all the TL forums and you'll be up to your neck in posters' whinings about shakes and rattles, premature tire wear and other things. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[NissT]

Yeah, and go to Audi forum or BMW forum and check out their posts about reliability.
BTW, there are only two "major rattles", which come from the headliner at the back and wind deflector on the sunroof. Both are well known issues to dealers and all are being fixed w/out any problems. It won’t happen next year.
How's a crappy tire related to TL quality?

[M_TYPE_X]

How's a crappy tire related to TL quality?



Acura types are whiny perfectionists who expect everything to be done their way, right, the first time. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

Acura TL and TSX may be FWD, but they are ALMOST up there in terms of quality and refinement with Audi. To say that they are not luxury (or luxurious) as Audi because you can’t option them out is simply wrong.

G35 can be optioned out and it’s RWD, but it is not up to the quality of TL. Yeah, I know, it was designed when Nissan was still in financial trouble, but it’s still a fact.



I quess you have a different view on what quality is if you think Audi is quality. the only thing the Audi and the TL have over the G35 in terms of "quality" , as you say, is the dashboard materials. If that is your idea of quality then you gotta think twice.

the TL and Audis are a dash-stroker's dream, but it seems to me that A4 and (yes) TL have had more complaints from owners than the G35 ever had. so it really makes you wonder which cars are built with a higher quality. by your logic, the Mazda3 should be considered a luxury car because the quality and design of it's interior is superior to some luxury cars.

to say the G35 is not at the same quality level as the TL is like saying an Accord isn't at the same quality level as a Passat......personally I would put the G35 infront of the TL right now in terms of quality.

[NissT]

Yes, I was speaking about what you can actually see and feel. Both Audi (whatever model) and TL are of higher quality on terms of this. Inside/out. Not just dash, it’s also leather, door panels, headliner, basically attention to details. There is another very important “type of quality” – reliability. If you think that TL has more complaints than G35, look here:
http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB25&amp;Number=67625266&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1
The only “major” issues with some TLs are these rattles in rear headliner and wind deflector. The tires are already being changed at some dealerships because they may develop flat spots and cause vibration. That’s about it. Oh, and some memory seat “problem”, also a know issue to dealers and is being fixed.
Audi is plagued with reliability issues, as well as BMW and even MB. Still, they are considered a high class luxury just because they feel luxury – what you can feel and see.
Anyways, that’s not my point, all I was trying to say is that TL is nicely loaded car and it wouldn’t be a TL if it was missing all of those nice features. This doesn’t make it a lesser luxury.

[CoCo_PuFf]

Yes, I was speaking about what you can actually see and feel. Both Audi (whatever model) and TL are of higher quality on terms of this. Inside/out. Not just dash, it’s also leather, door panels, headliner, basically attention to details. There is another very important “type of quality” – reliability. If you think that TL has more complaints than G35, look here:
http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=UBB25&amp;Number=67625266&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1
The only “major” issues with some TLs are these rattles in rear headliner and wind deflector. The tires are already being changed at some dealerships because they may develop flat spots and cause vibration. That’s about it. Oh, and some memory seat “problem”, also a know issue to dealers and is being fixed.
Audi is plagued with reliability issues, as well as BMW and even MB. Still, they are considered a high class luxury just because they feel luxury – what you can feel and see.
Anyways, that’s not my point, all I was trying to say is that TL is nicely loaded car and it wouldn’t be a TL if it was missing all of those nice features. This doesn’t make it a lesser luxury.



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/wink.gif I get what you're saying....but what I was originally saying is that Infiniti is more associated with luxury than Acura is, plain and simple.

look here. http://www.vtec.net/forums/forum?forum_id=185070 .....and those are just a few selected problems that the mods chose to start the "TL repair problems section", there are more.

[Nismo]

Acura types are whiny perfectionists who expect everything to be done their way, right, the first time.



Truer words have never been spoken. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nissan_Admirer]

Audi and BMW's reliability or lack thereof is expected. But we're not talking about reliability here. We're talking about quality. And if you still think that Acura's quality is above Infiniti's then you're the only anomaly in J.D. Power and Associates' annual Initial Quality Study: J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Initial Quality Study (http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003028) http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[NissT]

Please http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[CoCo_PuFf]

Please http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif



actually all you have to do is look past the G35, and the whole Infiniti linup screams quality. it's always between Infiniti and Lexus, so how can you dismiss the JD power survey? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Slack00]

Remember, car companies are not in the business to make cars....they are in the business to make money. So they will try all sorts of ways to make money. Two things are cash cows for car companies right now: SUVs (even after all this time), and this notion of "Luxury".

"Luxury" is mainly image. It means you'll pay more for it. And auto manufacturers try and get you to buy it.

Luxury is such an ambiguous term. It can be whatever you think is luxury. Or it can be whatever the marketers tell you is luxury. Manufacturers would rather create this lofty image that such and such car of theirs is luxury...because then you'll pay thou$and$ more than you would have otherwise.

"Luxury" used to be leather and wood. Then car companies tried to create "luxury" out of a normal vehicle by including them as options. But, lo and behold, a leather clad, DVD navigator-installed Impala is still not a luxury vehicle. Neither is a Honda Accord, despite the fact that it is probably, overall, a better reliable, more supmtuous and more "luxurious" car than many "luxury" cars. In other words, some cars try and option up to luxury to limited degrees of success.

So we all know options do not a luxury car make.

So perhaps it is reputation? Marques like Jaguar et al. are considered luxury because of their luxurious appointments and exclusive prices over a period of decades. Car manufacturers who have already have that golden "luxury" halo enjoy premium prices for cars that are not even truly luxury. Mercedes-Benzes are clearly luxury, right? Well, they also make the A Class and the goofy Smart...and in Germany you can get noisy four-cylinder diesel C Class with manual transmisions, cloth upolsthery, and no power accessories. Is that still a luxury vehicle? But you'd clearly pay more for a sedan so equipped than you would for a Ford sedan, no?

So maybe options DO make a car a luxury vehicle.

In other words, its all about perception: your own as well as everyone else's.

Well...imho...I think Acura is honestly trying to change public perception by consistently making vehicles loaded with luxury options. For consumers, it is a consistency of these luxury features over a long period of time that defines a luxury brand. Where others such as BMW and MB may risk diluting their luxury image, Acura is trying to solidify it. Maybe now one laughs at Acura's near luxury status...but maybe our grandkids will remember how every Acura they have ever been in was always tricked out...and they will define such a company as a "luxury marque" worth paying thousands of dollars more for.....and then Acura can start Phase II: selling stripper versions that command a premium price (just like Mercedes/BMW).

Where I think Honda has difficulty is because they offer such a good alternative (ie; Honda Accord). Consumers will be confused if Honda and Acura are both offering extremely luxurious products with little appreciable difference. A luxury car maker must stand out.

But, in a way, Honda's hand is forced: they have to remain competitive with the Toyota Camrys and leather-clad Impalas, etc etc, right?

Nobody said the car business was easy.

[Misfit]

so how can you dismiss the JD power survey? ....


I was never a JD fan - "initial quality" yes it has the amont of cup-holders I expected - no the rear bumper did not fall off when I drove it off the lot ......

Give a me a quality survey after 48 thousand clicks ....

[NissT]

Please http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif



actually all you have to do is look past the G35, and the whole Infiniti linup screams quality. it's always between Infiniti and Lexus, so how can you dismiss the JD power survey? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif


First, JD Power survey is not that accurate, they may take into account things that are not even related to real quality issues and people who drive these cars also play a role. For example, Cadillac drivers (generally old people) will not give a deam (or better – will not hear) most rattles. Second, Acura and Infiniti are separated by only 1 car/point or whatever, it doesn’t mean ANYTHING.

The reason some people think that Infiniti is above Acura in terms of luxury and quality is because Infiniti didn’t and doesn’t have Integra, this pathetic sh1t SLX, and RSX. Now forget about those three because two don’t exist anymore and RSX will be gone soon. Also, forget about RWD vs. FWD and styling.
Now, at THIS moment what does G35 have over TSX or TL in terms of quality? What does M45 have over RL in terms of quality? What does FX have over MDX in terms of quality? Yes, G35 was designed during Nissans financial struggle. Yes, MDX came out well before FX, not even talking about RL. But overall, both brands are almost identical (+/- depending on the age of the model).

[CoCo_PuFf]

First, JD Power survey is not that accurate, they may take into account things that are not even related to real quality issues and people who drive these cars also play a role. For example, Cadillac drivers (generally old people) will not give a deam (or better – will not hear) most rattles. Second, Acura and Infiniti are separated by only 1 car/point or whatever, it doesn’t mean ANYTHING.

The reason some people think that Infiniti is above Acura in terms of luxury and quality is because Infiniti didn’t and doesn’t have Integra, this pathetic sh1t SLX, and RSX. Now forget about those three because two don’t exist anymore and RSX will be gone soon. Also, forget about RWD vs. FWD and styling.
Now, at THIS moment what does G35 have over TSX or TL in terms of quality? What does M45 have over RL in terms of quality? What does FX have over MDX in terms of quality? Yes, G35 was designed during Nissans financial struggle. Yes, MDX came out well before FX, not even talking about RL. But overall, both brands are almost identical (+/- depending on the age of the model).



as I said before, the G35 doesn't have a top notch interior but look at the rest of the infiniti linup. have you felt the sojourner leather in the M, FX, and Q. have you seen the Real wood that they use. what about the luxury features, like a/c seats, lazer cruise, voice recognition etc...

Acura isn't equal to infiniti in terms of luxury or build quality. before the TSX and TL, the only quality product they had was RL....not to mention that the TSX ant TL are basically accords, not just because of the platform but the interior also, with added features and buttons. the MDX has plastic that are as hard as rock.....so there http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[FanaticZ]

"Luxury" is mainly image. It means you'll pay more for it. And auto manufacturers try and get you to buy it.

Luxury is such an ambiguous term. It can be whatever you think is luxury. Or it can be whatever the marketers tell you is luxury. Manufacturers would rather create this lofty image that such and such car of theirs is luxury...because then you'll pay thou$and$ more than you would have otherwise.

Well...imho...I think Acura is honestly trying to change public perception by consistently making vehicles loaded with luxury options. For consumers, it is a consistency of these luxury features over a long period of time that defines a luxury brand. Where others such as BMW and MB may risk diluting their luxury image, Acura is trying to solidify it. Maybe now one laughs at Acura's near luxury status...but maybe our grandkids will remember how every Acura they have ever been in was always tricked out...and they will define such a company as a "luxury marque" worth paying thousands of dollars more for.....and then Acura can start Phase II: selling stripper versions that command a premium price (just like Mercedes/BMW).



i agree luxury is a lot about name rather than content. like a 325i versus a camry xle, both have all sorts of fancy features available.

who knows what acura is doing, they were on top of the luxury market and threw it all away just like that. i don't think only one version of a car changes anything because their cars still aren't on the same playing field as the german cars. acura believes the tl competes with the 530i but is the tl comparble to the 530 in terms of options availbe, no. yes its cheaper, but thats kinda cause it doesn't have any of the options the bmw has. people get all excited over the tl coming loaded but when you compare it to a base bmw, it really doesn't look so loaded after all. and its great that my loaded one choice only tl will be coming with heated seat/mirrors standard even though i live in florida and have absolutely no need for them, but i'm paying for that great acura luxury car pacakging system, etc.

would i buy a tl a-spec over a 330w/ performance package, very unlikely. they aren't there yet. infiniti was in the same boat as acura when they were using the i35 based off the maxima like the tl is based off the accord. but they moved onto this new platform and have a ton more respect than they ever did with the i35. can't count how many times on the acura boards i read someone was switching to a g coupe from a cl.

[NissT]

First, JD Power survey is not that accurate, they may take into account things that are not even related to real quality issues and people who drive these cars also play a role. For example, Cadillac drivers (generally old people) will not give a deam (or better – will not hear) most rattles. Second, Acura and Infiniti are separated by only 1 car/point or whatever, it doesn’t mean ANYTHING.

The reason some people think that Infiniti is above Acura in terms of luxury and quality is because Infiniti didn’t and doesn’t have Integra, this pathetic sh1t SLX, and RSX. Now forget about those three because two don’t exist anymore and RSX will be gone soon. Also, forget about RWD vs. FWD and styling.
Now, at THIS moment what does G35 have over TSX or TL in terms of quality? What does M45 have over RL in terms of quality? What does FX have over MDX in terms of quality? Yes, G35 was designed during Nissans financial struggle. Yes, MDX came out well before FX, not even talking about RL. But overall, both brands are almost identical (+/- depending on the age of the model).



as I said before, the G35 doesn't have a top notch interior but look at the rest of the infiniti linup. have you felt the sojourner leather in the M, FX, and Q. have you seen the Real wood that they use. what about the luxury features, like a/c seats, lazer cruise, voice recognition etc...

Acura isn't equal to infiniti in terms of luxury or build quality. before the TSX and TL, the only quality product they had was RL....not to mention that the TSX ant TL are basically accords, not just because of the platform but the interior also, with added features and buttons. the MDX has plastic that are as hard as rock.....so there http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Ok, just as I said, it depends on when the models came out, but I think that over all Infiniti and Acura are equal. And it’s not US Accord’s fault that the interior is so nice. If you are comparing Altima interior to G35 interior, then G35 sure stands out.
I am sure that next G35 and MDX will have much better interiors and next RL will be up there with M or maybe even Q.

[NissT]

"Luxury" is mainly image. It means you'll pay more for it. And auto manufacturers try and get you to buy it.

Luxury is such an ambiguous term. It can be whatever you think is luxury. Or it can be whatever the marketers tell you is luxury. Manufacturers would rather create this lofty image that such and such car of theirs is luxury...because then you'll pay thou$and$ more than you would have otherwise.

Well...imho...I think Acura is honestly trying to change public perception by consistently making vehicles loaded with luxury options. For consumers, it is a consistency of these luxury features over a long period of time that defines a luxury brand. Where others such as BMW and MB may risk diluting their luxury image, Acura is trying to solidify it. Maybe now one laughs at Acura's near luxury status...but maybe our grandkids will remember how every Acura they have ever been in was always tricked out...and they will define such a company as a "luxury marque" worth paying thousands of dollars more for.....and then Acura can start Phase II: selling stripper versions that command a premium price (just like Mercedes/BMW).



i agree luxury is a lot about name rather than content. like a 325i versus a camry xle, both have all sorts of fancy features available.

who knows what acura is doing, they were on top of the luxury market and threw it all away just like that. i don't think only one version of a car changes anything because their cars still aren't on the same playing field as the german cars. acura believes the tl competes with the 530i but is the tl comparble to the 530 in terms of options availbe, no. yes its cheaper, but thats kinda cause it doesn't have any of the options the bmw has. people get all excited over the tl coming loaded but when you compare it to a base bmw, it really doesn't look so loaded after all. and its great that my loaded one choice only tl will be coming with heated seat/mirrors standard even though i live in florida and have absolutely no need for them, but i'm paying for that great acura luxury car pacakging system, etc.

would i buy a tl a-spec over a 330w/ performance package, very unlikely. they aren't there yet. infiniti was in the same boat as acura when they were using the i35 based off the maxima like the tl is based off the accord. but they moved onto this new platform and have a ton more respect than they ever did with the i35. can't count how many times on the acura boards i read someone was switching to a g coupe from a cl.




I agree on everything. The only thing is that I35 doesn’t have and never had any respect and TL does. That’s why Acura is still playing this game with the same platform. They don’t need to change. And that sucks for enthusiasts. I think it’s going to change because every car manufacturer is moving either to AWD or RWD.

[M_TYPE_X]

Slack's post is a great survey of the 'game in the town.' He's posted quite a few sober results of good study recently.

Luxury as defined as a sense of semi-excessive over-and-above doesn't apply to Acura vehicles or the Honda Motor Company in general. Whiny perfectionistic rationalists' upscale automobiles... yes. Luxury in the sense of Lexus? No. And again for the umpteenth time, I don't argue it's bad and that the RL is a disaster and the RSX is crap and that the TL is "just an upscale Accord." RL's problem is that it's an old and no longer plays in its market segment because others stole its image-market.

Old people who are brand-loyal, a la Buick or Cadillac, care less about a small rattle than they do about the amount of wood, leather, and on-demand torque that they would expect from a powerful old-school OHV V-6 or DOHC V-8 powerplant.

"What's the point of Honda?" What you see is what you get ... it's not a theory: Honda Motor Company is out there selling quality economical, midrange, and upscale automobiles that fit the needs of most families and individuals out there. And now light-use trucks will be included.

If you don't understand Honda management .... that's okay, you probably only care cuz you're a TOYOTA spy and you want to copy VTEC and sell it in your cars, which you markup the price by putting on the TOYOTA or LEXUS badge, either of which apparently say LUXURY or at least brand equity. But it's the brand equity of a story, a firm that has a large manufacturing base backed up by a R&amp;D arm that copycats the best stuff out there better than anyone in the business! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Nissan_Admirer]

Give a me a quality survey after 48 thousand clicks ....



I believe the survey you're looking for is dependability/reliability of 3 year old models or something like that. And I think J.D. Power has one.

[M_TYPE_X]

BTW, Infiniti and Acura are typically super close, within a point or two. If Infiniti is almost always better in the surveys, the margin isn't one to pull out the laurels to rest on.

JD Power: If you're reading this, yes, I'm still interested in employment... please call me... http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/tear.gif

[Nissan_Admirer]

He can easily dismiss J.D. Power because he's a Honda fanatic! You know those fanatics ... they think their sh*t smells better than everyone else's. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[Nissan_Admirer]

Now, at THIS moment what does G35 have over TSX or TL in terms of quality?


How about the G35's transmission hasn't failed as yet? Does the whole TL's transmission fiasco ring any bells??


What does M45 have over RL in terms of quality?


M45 isn't even in the same class as RL. Try Q45. How about smoother, quieter engine for starters?


What does FX have over MDX in terms of quality?


How about full time AWD? How about better exterior design??

[M_TYPE_X]

He can easily dismiss J.D. Power because he's a Honda fanatic! You know those fanatics ... they think their sh*t smells better than everyone else's. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif



Actually, at Honda, the sh*t doesn't stink at all! Best sh*t in the world. Stinkless shytel... like stainless steel, only better. Best thing since then, actually. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

['87 Sentra]

... that's okay, you probably only care cuz you're a TOYOTA spy and you want to copy VTEC and sell it in your cars...



That is funny. Toyota's vvt is better than honda's.

[M_TYPE_X]

... that's okay, you probably only care cuz you're a TOYOTA spy and you want to copy VTEC and sell it in your cars...



That is funny. Toyota's vvt is better than honda's.



WHAT?!

[CoCo_PuFf]

WHAT?!



I think he's right. when Honda was using VTEC, Toyota's VVTL-I was more advanced and better, but not that Honda moved to I-VTEC i'm not so sure that that is still true. they're probably about the same or Honda's is beter.

[jaje]

WHAT?!



I think he's right. when Honda was using VTEC, Toyota's VVTL-I was more advanced and better, but not that Honda moved to I-VTEC i'm not so sure that that is still true. they're probably about the same or Honda's is beter.

actually read up on VVTi technology with toyota...there are few cars in its lineup that have both cams using variable valve timing (gts celica built by yamaha is an exception)

http://www.edmunds.com/news/innovations/articles/43849/article.html


Toyota saw the success Honda was having with VTEC (from both a functional and marketing standpoint) but decided to go a different route. Instead of the on/off system that VTEC employs, Toyota decided it wanted a continuously variable system that would maximize valve timing throughout the rpm range. Dubbed VVTi for Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (Is this a dig at Honda, suggesting their system isn't intelligent?), Toyota uses a hydraulic rather than mechanical system to alter the intake cam's phasing. The main difference from VTEC is that VVTi maintains the same cam profile and alters only when the valves open and close in relation to engine speed. Also, this system works only on the intake valve while VTEC has two settings for the intake and the exhaust valves, which makes for a more dramatic gain in peak power than VVTi can claim.

[M_TYPE_X]

So basically you mean that the Honda system is more peaky and more top-end biased. Meanwhile, the Toyota system is there but unless your foot has extra nerves, you'd never notice anything was happening! Whoa, big newsflash kids. Stop the presses, call the 11 O'Clock News ... no one would ever have guessed this amazing "discovery"-! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[Irie_eyes]

Yet another Honda debate/argument.
Actually, valve timing is divided in two groups, cam phasing and cam changing. Cam phasing just advances or retards timing, but does not do anything to lift, such as the VVTi ("smart", constantly changing valve timing). Cam phasing usually the cam rotates in the cam sprocket via oil. Cam phasing seems to be more popular nowadays. Cam changing on the other hand, switches to a different cam profile, which as different static timing, but also lift, (VTEC). i-VTEC and VVTL-i is both worlds combined, cam phasing, along with cam changing.
This is probably in conjunction with some form of variable length intake runners.

[Nissan_Admirer]

The i in VVT-i or VVTL-i stands for intelligence. The intelligence is in that the variable valve timing application in the Toyota is continuous. That is, the valve timing is continuously variable at all rpms unlike the old VTEC in the Hondas which only kicks in after 3500rpm or so. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Irie_eyes]

continuous=cam phasing

[2001_S15]

MSRP for an Accord? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I went into an Acura dealer near here and struck up a conversation with a dealer... he tried to make it sound like the cars were somehow in short supply... as if factories in Japan and Snotbury England weren't squeezing out zillions of "Accord Euro"s every minute.

[GroovinGTR]

Acura has a different philosophy; they don't want to sell stripped models and they want to be considered as a true lux alternative.



I don't know about you, but to me nothing says true luxury like a $21k badge-engineered Civic http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

Acura has a different philosophy; they don't want to sell stripped models and they want to be considered as a true lux alternative.



I don't know about you, but to me nothing says true luxury like a $21k badge-engineered Civic http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif



http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

How do Canadian Acura dealers do it? I mean, American Acura dealers are getting obnoxious enough, as Riff mentioned.

[Misfit]

How do Canadian Acura dealers do it? I mean, American Acura dealers are getting obnoxious enough, as Riff mentioned.



It us anal retentive canucks that help !! - We seem to have a cultural thing against spending 50k on a car - but still like the luxury and performance - the suspension on the baby acura is quite good - beats Civic by a lot - also up here the now dead G20 sold very well .......