What makes Bavarian cars so unreliable....

[MiReLaNsKi]

when their build quality is consumate. I checked out the new BMW X3 the other day. For pete's sake, even the plastic on bumper would have to make you second guess it is actually plastic. It is so well put together it makes absolutely no sense. Why do these things (merc and audi included) have mechanical problems. Is it the fact that Merc's are hand built? Or that sometimes some of the assemblers aren't up to strength when using a toruqe wrench?

Where I am getting at is...usually things built to high quality standards last longer than things that don't...with less problems I might add.

I've got some high-end subwoofers and amps that have stood the test of time compared to my friends 3 and 4 hundred dollar less equipment.

Isn't it the old adages..."you pay for what you get"? Well what in the heck does that really mean. I think a properly placed "might" somewhere between the "you" and the "get" would sum up real world scenario's.

[Nismo]

In general, the three major philosphies among automakers breaks down like this:

Americans/Koreans:
Most of these companies tend to value low-cost above all else. Cheaper is almost always better in the boardrooms of these companies. For example, if a new alternator is invented that will save the company $5 per unit, then they'll do some testing under controlled conditions, then put it into a new model as soon as possible. The problem with this speedy implementation is that they may find out after a million units have been sold that shorting can occur because of a technical design issue, forcing the company to recall the million units already sold and further tarnishing the company's image. Even if a recall is not issued, the customers may still have problems, and the compainy's image of making unreliable products is reinforced.

Japanese:
The major Japanese automakers (Honda/Toyota/Nissan) have traditionally placed a major emphasis on reliability. Cheaper is not always better, according to them, and neither is having the latest technology. If a new technology is invented--either to save money or introduce a new wizz-bang feature--then these compaines will usually forgo it in favor of a more well known tried-and-true technology, at least until the new technology sees enough testing, both controlled testing and real-world testing, to have good reliability data on it. E.g.--Honda's FCV might be a good example of this--as opposed to GM's EV1 which had a problem so major that GM recalled every single one and could not devise a solution other than a complete car replacment.

Germans
The more wizzbang the gadgets, the better. If a German invents a new engine management system, then you can bet it'll be on next year's model. No need to wait for long-term reliability results; if it worked during initial testing, then its good enough to put into production.

All of these explanations are, of course, somewhat generalized, but I think you get the idea.
Hope it helps. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nissan_Admirer]

Generally speaking, Germans pioneered most of the latest technologies built into their cars. Pioneering takes time to perfect the technology and make it reliable. You have car companies like Toyota and Honda that comes along and sees what great inventions the Germans have created and just copies and refines it. In short, new technologies = bugs, kinks, unreliability, etc., refinement = cheaper to produce, more reliable. So you see, if Toyota or Honda or any of the other auto manufacturers actually invent anything new, you can guarantee that it will have problems.

[BrianS]

meticulous (sp?) amazing german engineering invention and design

middle eastern and south african subcontracted subassemblies and parts

nazi (no pun intended) union assembley

[pudicus]

There's a joke going around Europe.
Q. What's the difference between French and German cars ?
A. French cars are assembled by Arabs and German cars are assembled by Turks http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smirk.gif.
'Nuff said there. Also, throw in this equation the good ol German take-no-prisoner unions and you'll get the idea why their cars now have the reliability of the early 1990s Khun-day.

[Nismo]

If Toyota or Honda or any of the other auto manufacturers actually invent anything new, you can guarantee that it will have problems.



Many of the world's automakers are continuously inventing new technologies, not just the Germans. But the Germans, I feel, seem to put the technology into production more prematurely than, say, Honda or Toyota. In fact, Honda and Toyota were both the first automakers into the hybrid scene, and were also, from what I've read on the subject, the first to begin serious engineering on fuel cell cars. Honda is also working on a multitude of other technology projects, some of which have more implications to the auto industry than others. A good example of Honda's inventiveness is Asimo (http://world.honda.com/ASIMO/)--an amazing autonomous robot utilizing computer-intelligence technology that Honda may incorporate into its cars of the future.

Another example is Honda's Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control (VTEC) which was first implemented in their Formula 1 engine. Later, after much testing and refinement, Honda introduced the technology in a low-volume production vehicle (the just-introduced NSX). Eventually, after much data had been collected and considerably more was known about the real-world performance and reliability of the VTEC valve trains, Honda began implementing the technology on a wider range of its more pedestrian vehicles. Today, you can find the valve train technology--which helps improve efficiency, power, fuel economy, and emissions--on a large number of Honda and Acura vehicles.

GM, to use a domestic example, was the first major automaker to dive into the electric-car-for-the-masses market. Unfortunately for GM, they rushed the technology, pushed it into production faster than was wise. Rather than doing more research in-house and in limited-partnership arrangements, GM thought they would take the automobile industry by storm by leasing relatively large quantities of electric cars to end-consumers before the bugs had been worked out. Of course, hindsight is 20/20, but more in-house development would probably have saved GM a lot of face (and a lot of money).

Many of the world's automakers are continuously inventing or buying the rights to new technologies. But the Germans, in particular, seem to be the most willing to adopt these technologies early on. It is my opinion that by putting these technologies into production so quickly, the German automakers that rush to be first (I'm mainly talking about Mercedes, BMW, and Volkswagen here) are setting themselves up for reliability problems down the road.

[MiReLaNsKi]

So that its...Thats the mystery solved. Its the arabs?!...

You have got to give me a better explaination than that.

[Nissan_Admirer]

I thought I'd point out that VTEC is Honda's version of variable valve timing. I believe in a previous post, someone pointed out Honda did not invent variable valve timing technology.

[Nismo]

I thought I'd point out that VTEC is Honda's version of variable valve timing. I believe in a previous post, someone pointed out Honda did not invent variable valve timing technology.



Sort of. VTEC doesn't only vary valve timing, but also valve lift. As far as inventions go, there are few ideas regarding internal combustion engines that haven't already been considered by someone at sometime in the past. Often, an 'original' idea might be canned due to a lack of money, knowledge, materials (with the needed properties), or even a lack of inventiveness to turn the original concept into a good working device. Honda did not invent variable valve timing nor variable valve lift no more than they invented the poppet valve, but none of that takes away from the fact that Honda did design VTEC, their own contribution to technological innovation in IC engine technology. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Nissan_Admirer]

...but none of that takes away from the fact that Honda did design VTEC, their own contribution to technological innovation in IC engine technology. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif



That's like saying that Toyota designed VVTL-i, their own technological innovation in IC engine technology. The bottom line is neither of these auto manufacturers invented variable valve timing technology. There's nothing innovating about taking an existing idea and refining it. That doesn't require brain power when compared to actually laying out the blueprints of something, so to speak of. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif

[Nismo]

There's nothing innovating about taking an existing idea and refining it. That doesn't require brain power when compared to actually laying out the blueprints of something, so to speak of.



Now you're just being silly. That statement contradicts everything I am being taught about Mechanical Engineering. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[MiReLaNsKi]

...but none of that takes away from the fact that Honda did design VTEC, their own contribution to technological innovation in IC engine technology. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif







That's like saying that Toyota designed VVTL-i, their own technological innovation in IC engine technology. The bottom line is neither of these auto manufacturers invented variable valve timing technology. There's nothing innovating about taking an existing idea and refining it. That doesn't require brain power when compared to actually laying out the blueprints of something, so to speak of. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif



That statement contradicts pretty the entire modern invention age. The adage "nothing new under the sun" comes to mind.

Close to everything is built on top off existing technology in some way or fashion.

[Nissan_Admirer]

What's so hard to understand? Trying to come up with a new idea and making it work requires more intelligence and effort than taking an existing idea and so call "refining" that idea. Here's an analogy: to get from step 1 to step 2 you need to go through step 1 first. Seldomly do you jump directly to step 2. And usually step 1 is the hardest step to overcome. Similarly, the rudimentary foundations of variable valve timing must be laid down first before you can go about tweaking it. And laying down this foundation requires far more intelligence and effort (in order to make it a working concept) than just merely "refining" it. Now was that so hard to understand??? http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[M_TYPE_X]

...but none of that takes away from the fact that Honda did design VTEC, their own contribution to technological innovation in IC engine technology. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/smile.gif



That's like saying that Toyota designed VVTL-i, their own technological innovation in IC engine technology. The bottom line is neither of these auto manufacturers invented variable valve timing technology. There's nothing innovating about taking an existing idea and refining it. That doesn't require brain power when compared to actually laying out the blueprints of something, so to speak of. http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif



Spoken like a true Nissan fanatic! Honda and Toyota are fools who only think their innovations lead to their success! http://forums.freshalloy.com/images/graemlins/laugh.gif