V6 in A 240SX (VQ35)

[OuterEdge]

I have heard about a VG35 being put into a S14. They say that the engine can also fit in a S13. It sits back very far and is close to the firewall but I have not heard too much more about this. Has anyone every seen this done or does anyone have any info on this? What are the benefits of doing the swap? I know that drifters are pulling the VG35 out of their 350Z's and swapping in a SR20 because of weight issues, and I was wondering if the same weight issues still occur when drifting with the S13/14?

Any info or pics would be greatly appreciated.

. . . . . . .

EDIT: I changed the thread title to accurately reflect the motor you're wanting info on, VQ35. - orion

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Originally Posted by OuterEdge

I have heard about a VG35 being put into a S14. They say that the engine can also fit in a S13. It sits back very far and is close to the firewall but I have not heard too much more about this. Has anyone every seen this done or does anyone have any info on this? What are the benefits of doing the swap? I know that drifters are pulling the VG35 out of their 350Z's and swapping in a SR20 because of weight issues, and I was wondering if the same weight issues still occur when drifting with the S13/14?

Any info or pics would be greatly appreciated.

Check my site for details, it's actually a VQ35 not a VG35.




Fred

[2slow240sx]

I think pulling the engine out of a 350Z to opt for 1.5L LESS displacement is retarded. Signal Auto did it for Sooper Skreet magazine and now everyone thinks they have to do it.

More displacement = more potential, no matter how you slice it.

If an LS1 fits in the 240, then I'd bet the 3.5L V6 fits just fine. Besides, it responds very well to SC'ing.

[Broaner]

And turbo'ing. Swap option for FR chassis are basically limitless. Anything can be fabbed to make a certain motor fit. The VQ series motors fit without much problem at all. I all did the swap except with the VQ30 into my S13. Check my homepage as well if you like.

Drifters are stupid... Whoops did I say that out loud? Build a car to function correctly. The VQ weighs nearly the same as the SR.

[OuterEdge]

The only reason I thought about it was for something different. I am wanting to get back into drifting again but if this swap wouldn't work well for it then I would just go for the SR20 deal. I was also wondering about things like what fits, what doesn't, how well do turbo's fit, etc?

I saw the article in SCC today after reading your post on www.engineswaptech.com and it looks pretty good. How does the car handle some other things such as drifting, cornering and such? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

[2slow240sx]

Honestly, if you're willing to spend the money required for a VQ swap, why not spend about the same money and do the LS1 swap? Much more potential in that engine, and aftermarket stuff will be readily available.

Imagine hittin' the track in a ground pounding 240 and drifting circles around everyone. Nothin' like nearly 400bhp from a torquemonster V8, needing no boost to accomplish your goals.

[OuterEdge]

Originally Posted by 2slow240sx

Honestly, if you're willing to spend the money required for a VQ swap, why not spend about the same money and do the LS1 swap? Much more potential in that engine, and aftermarket stuff will be readily available.

Imagine hittin' the track in a ground pounding 240 and drifting circles around everyone. Nothin' like nearly 400bhp from a torquemonster V8, needing no boost to accomplish your goals.

Sorry to sound like a newbie but I am not from the USA and haven't heard to much about the LS1. I know little bits about it but what is the swap into a 240 like. I heard it done on a RX7 but nothing else. do yoou have any info/pics on that swap/ Also why are they so common in the aftermarket? persude me to go that way instead of a VQ35 or SR20DT jk

[2slow240sx]

American V8 engines have a ton of aftermarket support. That's just the way it is here. You can get everything from high flow heads to full twin turbo setups for the LS1. It also responds VERY well to boost and/or nitrous.

There's a thread somewhere on FreshAlloy from a guy that recently did this swap. Turned out, the LS engine and T56 trans were an improvement in weight and distribution compared to the KA24DE-T setup he was running, since the turbo KA setup held the weight very high.

There's also a company that has the LS1 swap kit. I think it might be Hinson Racing or Hinson Motorsports? Can't remember for the life of me.

[orion]

Originally Posted by OuterEdge

... haven't heard to much about the LS1.

You're in AU - Familiar with the Holden Monaro, or the Commodore?

I believe the Monaro used the LS1 (5.7 liter), and the Commodore now uses the LS2 (6.0 liter)...same architechture, just different displacement.

- Brian

[Broaner]

Switching brands in the motor swap process is not very appealing to me. IMO, Nissan motors should be in Nissan cars, 2jz's in Yota's, etc... It makes sense.

I agree that the LS series motors have serious potential. I used the VQ because I had one, and the ECU, and a good knowledge base of them. Plus I like twin cam motors. Call it preference.

Finally, because the VQ is the Nissan workhorse and more recently the powerhouse. There are thousands of perfectly working low mileage VQ's sitting in totalled Maxima's, Altima's, Z's, Quests, Frontiers, and G's accross the world. That makes them super cheap. The rarity of the RB's and LS's has made them expensive. VQ35's can often be had with less than 30K miles for $1K. The VQ has replaced the RB in the performance oriented Nissan motor family and soon will climb to the top as far as aftermarket support and power capability goes. Especially since the new GT-R is going to have some form of a VQ variant. I'm hoping for a VQ32.

[2slow240sx]

Why a 32 over a 35? What's with you people and wanting LESS displacement in a performance vehicle???

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

No kidding, adding displacement is the perfect, (almost) no compromise way to get higher performance. I'm done with 4 cylinders.

Fred

[Nikeboy355]

2Slow...
Your argument for larger displacement is that they have more power potential... and yes the LS1 weighs less than a KA... but that isn't all the factors that go into building an engine for a racecar...

There is cost, weight, powerband, reliability, power, aftermarket support, replacement parts availability, ease of installation, cost of maintenance, and many more...

A drag racer has different needs than a drifter does than a road course car would than a top speed car would...

An LS1 is a great motor but maybe not the best option for a road course racer that wants 300WHP and ease of installation...
Likewise a SR20DET might not be a good idea for a drag car looking to make 1000WHP... yes it can be done with money but a larger displacement motor might cost less and be more reliable...

The SR20 350Zs have those motors because they are cheap to replace, can make enough power they need, and saves a little weight on the front which makes sense for their application...

A VQ35 is a great motor because as Broaner said, it's new technology... and it's smooth as hell, good powerband, and availability is good...

My point is that bigger is not always better for all applications...

[2slow240sx]

Originally Posted by Nikeboy355

2Slow...
Your argument for larger displacement is that they have more power potential...

Do you disagree? In the end (when discussing power potential), it all comes down to power per cubic inch, or cubic centimeter, whichever measurement you prefer. There are no 6,000hp 2.0L or 3.5L engines.

There is cost, weight, powerband, reliability, power, aftermarket support, replacement parts availability, ease of installation, cost of maintenance, and many more...

An LS1 is a great motor but maybe not the best option for a road course racer that wants 300WHP and ease of installation...
Likewise a SR20DET might not be a good idea for a drag car looking to make 1000WHP... yes it can be done with money but a larger displacement motor might cost less and be more reliable...

I see LS1 equipped cars running in the top ten group in GT races ALL THE TIME. What I don't ever see, are SR20DET equipped cars running high in the GT races. Furthermore, the power spread on an NA large displacement engine making 300whp will be much more useable and trackable (any racing) than a turbocharged 300whp engine with half the displacement. If the weight differences between the two are negligible, the choice should be obvious, when it comes to full on racing.

The SR20 350Zs have those motors because they are cheap to replace, can make enough power they need, and saves a little weight on the front which makes sense for their application...

Broaner already pointed out that a VQ35 is popular and found for around $1,000 in junkyards quite often. I've yet to EVER see a good SR20DET for less than $2,000. Even at slightly less, you won't find a good one for $1,000. Furthermore, there's much more maintenance required with a turbo engine than an NA engine. Yes, the weight is a little more, but probably not more than a turbo KA, which gets drifted in 240's quite often these days. That being said, I doubt the 350z really suffers tremendously because of the "heavy nose" issue claimed by the drifters who swap in SR20's. The 350z is much more balanced in stock form than a 240sx. But then again, I'm not a pro drifter, so I couldn't accurately argue this topic any further.

A VQ35 is a great motor because as Broaner said, it's new technology... and it's smooth as hell, good powerband, and availability is good...

My point is that bigger is not always better for all applications...

I don't discredit this statement. As an avid offroad dirtbike guy, I experience this firsthand. My old KTM 500cc 2-stroke made about 60hp, but was like driving a couch in the tight, twisty woods. I switched to a bike with less than half the displacement, and 11 year newer chassis/suspension and now I make much smoother transitions through the tough sections.

Obviously there are many different winning engine/chassis combinations, and not all require monster engines to get the job done. I think it really comes down to driver ability/preference when power delivery is concerned.

I was really just inquiring why someone would prefer 3.2L over 3.5L, immediately after glorifying the 3.5L engine? I really wasn't trying to turn this into a big motor vs. little motor argument.

Ultimately, the choice of engine swap is up to the car builder. If the guy that started this thread wants a VQ, he should do a VQ. Likewise to the drifter who wants an SR or the drag racer who wants a V8.

[paemt]

Regardless, this has turned into a thread highjack! It's not fair to the original poster to have his thread turn into an arguement. Not to be rude but this gentleman didn't ask about the LS1 he asked about the VQ. If you want to discuss the over swap options, start another thread please.

Chad

[OuterEdge]

Thanks for all with the input. I did not know that this would turn into a fight over iother engines. When I asked about the VQ I had no idea that things like that were commonly done in 240sx, nor did I know about the use of the LS1. The use of the other motors is great to find out about as that is what this sort of thing is all about.

The VQ: I think that it would be a good swap and for the money it would give something a little different. I haven't heard to much on the drivers side of it in relation to how it handles, how it is drifting etc.

The LS1: I would love yo try this and I think that it is something unique. I don't think that it couls be only be done with a LD1, what about the use of a Nissan V8. The LS1 is out of things like the Tahao and Yukon if I am correct, then why could a engine out of a Nissan truck be used if people are only wanting to go with a nissan car-nissan engine combo. As I said before I think this would be something different and I think it would suit my needs well.

The SR20: I am one of the biggest SR freaks out there and love everything about them, however if I see something else come along then I would be willing to sit and listen to what is said. Since this topic has been started I have become very interested in putting some kind of V8 into the 240 as I think it would be a great drift car, plus give it nice handleing and make it fun to drive.

I am still after more info of all kinds on both putting a SR, VQ or a LSI (or some kind of V8 anyway) into a 240. I am wanting the car for a drift car but also a daily driver durning the summer. Just something I can have fun with. If the argument can be made for any of the motors for the 240, I would love to hear it.

Thanks for all the input so far.

[idrive]

there are a couple of 350z on the formula drift circuit here in the us using the titan V8's...its certainly a great alternative to american LS1 it just doesnt offer as much performance part potential as the LS1...all of the parts for it here are limited to modest bolt ons with the exception of one or two super charger kits. you could also entertain the use of the v8's that nissan puts in some of its sedans (the us M45) smaller displacement but probably a more car friendly drivetrain. good luck and just to give you an idea, the VQ swap done here in the states will go for about the same price as a stock SR swap but with more power (hp and trq) to start with and an equally unlimited power potential

[Broaner]

Originally Posted by 2slow240sx

I was really just inquiring why someone would prefer 3.2L over 3.5L, immediately after glorifying the 3.5L engine? I really wasn't trying to turn this into a big motor vs. little motor argument.

I wasn't glorifying the VQ35. I was attempting to speak more generally of the VQ series motor as a whole. In the US three sizes have been offered in production vehicles. VQ30 was the first VQ. It was offered in Maxima's from 95-01. Then they stepped up the size.

Anyway, my comment on the VQ32 was made because I've seen what they can do. Many of the VQ internals are interchangable to create hybrid motors. Combining these various internals can create very potent combos. One of the most potent being a VQ35 block and pistons with vq30 crank and rods. A destroked VQ35 with slightly lower compression that will respond to boost well and rev like the devil.

[2slow240sx]

^^^ Duly noted. So the VQ engines are much like the earlier american GM V8's, in that you can do some internal swappin' to make a good frankenstien motor. I like that a bunch!

[killjoy]

Originally Posted by 2slow240sx

Imagine hittin' the track in a ground pounding 240 and drifting circles around everyone. Nothin' like nearly 400bhp from a torquemonster V8, needing no boost to accomplish your goals.

I imagined it. Boring.

I do not ever want to have a NA motor again. I had a C5 Vette that wasn't near as fun to drive as my 400whp 240. I want to say more, but as paemt stated another thread is necessary.

[Primo]

Fred, how do you like the megasquirt with the VQ, I know a lot of guys using MS with E30 BMWs. any issues, also did you have any issues with the e-throttle of the Z when inplanting the engine ?

-Ben

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Originally Posted by Primo

Fred, how do you like the megasquirt with the VQ, I know a lot of guys using MS with E30 BMWs. any issues, also did you have any issues with the e-throttle of the Z when inplanting the engine ?

-Ben

I like it a lot so far, not tuned yet but atleast it starts and idles reliably now! You can see some pics on my site of how I dealt with the e-throttle


http://www.engineswaptech.com/

Fred

[dopebox]

check out the latest issue of Sport Compact Car... big tech article about the VQ35DE and the VG30DE (prev. generation Maxima V6) swap into a S14 chassis... according to the article there isn't hodd clearance for the stock intake manifold and you have to fab up a custom one, so Fred Allen Burge, how did you deal with that to keep the stock piece?

[Broaner]

Perhaps its Fred's car in the article. What an idea...

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Originally Posted by dopebox

check out the latest issue of Sport Compact Car... big tech article about the VQ35DE and the VG30DE (prev. generation Maxima V6) swap into a S14 chassis... according to the article there isn't hodd clearance for the stock intake manifold and you have to fab up a custom one, so Fred Allen Burge, how did you deal with that to keep the stock piece?

It is indeed my article and my 15 minutes are ticking away , check here for details regarding the intake manifold:
http://www.engineswaptech.com/forums/thread/361.aspx

thanks
Fred

[modreadz]

as far as this swap goes, how feasible is it to do so? If someone could link me that'd be great.

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Originally Posted by modreadz

as far as this swap goes, how feasible is it to do so? If someone could link me that'd be great.

What are you asking?

Fred

[Broaner]

LMAO. Obviously its feasible as now three of us have completed the swap. I'm sure every week there will be another completed swap. I know of one other guy working on a turbo VQ swap right now.

[Jsquared]

I just want to clarify that an LS1 is certainly not the same weight as a KA or SR. An LS1 sans transmission is within a few pounds (less than 10) of an SR20DET or KA24DE with transmission. Seventy to eighty pounds will definately effect weight distribution when almost all of it is above the front wheels... although if you look at a KA-T that still has AC, the difference in weight to the LS1 is not as great. I still don't like an LS1 into an S13/S14... on the other hand, an LS1 into a Porsche 944 or 928 is a better alternative, because the Porsche engine and plumbing is heavy (LS1 into a 951 a.k.a. 944 turbo only changes front axle weight by about 25 lbs), because it's a transaxle car (better balance), and the Porsche 944 turbo engine is a ROYAL pain to work on (worse than Z32tt). I won't even get into the 928, parts prices for that engine are absurd, and the wiring is HORRIFIC.

Back on topic, as far as the weight distribution of the VQ35DE in an S14, I believe Mr. Burge posted a picture of his car after the swap was done initially, and the nose was pointed much farther up than you see with stock springs on an SR-swapped car. I would also wager that the center of gravity is lower in addition to being farther back.

[modreadz]

Originally Posted by Broaner

LMAO. Obviously its feasible as now three of us have completed the swap. I'm sure every week there will be another completed swap. I know of one other guy working on a turbo VQ swap right now.

As far as this swap goes, is there enough clearance to utilize the stock catalytic converters? I'd like to be able to do this swap in CA and pass emissions and without having trouble from the local authorities. Also, what kind of fuel management are you using? I'd like to stick with the factory ECM if I can, again, for smog purposes.

[Broaner]

Your refering to the stock Z cats? I think those are right off the manifolds. In which case I'd say it'd be very tough to use them as the widest point is from manifold to manifold and is probably less than 4 inches shorter than the distance between the framerails.

Fuel system is an OEM ECU. Works but its not the best.

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Actually Broaner, on my car atleast, the width isn't the problem with fitting the cats it the shape of the floor board, the cats would hit it.

Fred

[modreadz]

Originally Posted by Fred_Allen_Burge

Actually Broaner, on my car atleast, the width isn't the problem with fitting the cats it the shape of the floor board, the cats would hit it.

Fred

Would it be possible to rotate the cat a bit to clear the floorboard? I understand that moving the cat would be against the law, so I'd like to keep it in the same place and rotate 'em to clear any obstructions.

Also, will a ECU from a maxima persay be able to gather sensor readings from a manual transmission from a 350z/G35?

[Broaner]

You guys really like making things complicated. LOL. I knew when I started that the only way I was ever getting this done was if I gave no sh!ts about its legality. Race car for me...

But to answer I'd say it wouldn't be possible to rotate the cat without cutting and rewelding the flange. This is because for some rediculous reason the flange is not an equilatoral triangle.

Sorry but I can't answer your question Modreadz because I have nothing electrical hooked to the tranny.

Got her started last night and went for a spin. My fuel cell that I spent so much time on it falling on its face. The gas has destroyed the RTV sealer at the access panel and leaks profusely so I have to keep the tank low. Yet at the same time I have to keep it high because it will starve because I made the holes in the baffels in the tank too big. Basically it was a huge waste of time and some money to attempt to make my own fuel cell. Anyway. Vids up this weekend hopefully.

[s13SRmadness]

people have already put vg30, vq30, vq35, vh45, a vh45 tt attempt, various chevy v8s. they all work, but if you need to come on a forum to answer VERY basic questions about these swaps you PROBABLY do not have the know how to do these swaps no matter how many question threads you start.
drifters are stupid? orly?
the same guy who did one of the first sr z33 in the US over 2 years ago also did the more recent conv titan v8 z. he likes both. MANY combos can work. ignorant comments about proposed swaps help nobody.
the whole "you're gonna ruin the car and wreck the weight balance" comments that everyone throws out in EVERY thread regarding engine swaps is out of ignorance, jelousy, or some combination of the 2.
many new v6 or v8 engines can be VERY light and compact. and the power delivery is, in some peoples opinions, superior.
over the years i have come to hate 4cyl motors. i've been driving a z33 for 3-4 months now and recently got to drive a fully prepped s13 with s13 sr drift car. up until 4k rpm it felt like it was running on 2 cyls- NO TOURQE
i pulled the s13 sr out of my s14 for an rb25. i got many of the same comments about ruining the car. whatever. i drift and it will be fine. the power delivery (especially low end tq) more than make up for the shift in weight distribution.
i never considered a vq35 in the s14 because i assumed that it would be prohibited by high cost and i do not have the fab skills required.
if you have more skill, time, and patcience i would defenitley reccomend the vq35 swap into a 240sx. heck, i would have done it myself. (i love the vq35 in my z)
i have drifted the z33 3-4 times now and totally stock i have plenty of power to drift the much heavier z33 so i could only guess that it would be fantastic in a 240.
drifters are not morons btw. they build a car for a different purpose than you. they are good at it. they're only cars. and stfu when you have no clue what you're talking about. ("there- i said it") have a great day.

[modreadz]

^ I agree. Drifting takes talent as any other sort of motorsport. It's just different.

Question: Someone has to 100% confirm this with me and I must hear it. Does the 350z transmission mate up with the Maxima motor. Is there a special adapter plate that must be used. I Just find it hard that they work together.

[Fred_Allen_Burge]

Originally Posted by modreadz

Question: Someone has to 100% confirm this with me and I must hear it. Does the 350z transmission mate up with the Maxima motor. Is there a special adapter plate that must be used. I Just find it hard that they work together.

Yes, they mate up perfectly. No adapter plate needed, same bolt pattern on the Maxima block as on the 350Z bellhousing.

Fred

[Danimal]

Originally Posted by Jsquared

I just want to clarify that an LS1 is certainly not the same weight as a KA or SR. An LS1 sans transmission is within a few pounds (less than 10) of an SR20DET or KA24DE with transmission. Seventy to eighty pounds will definately effect weight distribution when almost all of it is above the front wheels.

Well, your right about some things and very wrong about others.

KA w/auto trans, header, cat, accessories: 596 lbs.
LS1 w/T56 manual tranny, headers, accessories: 468 lbs.
(numbers from Hinson and our very own Kenji)

So in short not only does the LS1 (all aluminum vs iron KA pig) weigh less, the tranny moves weight lower into the chassis and closer to the center of the car which decreases polar moment of inertia. This is a very very good thing in my eyes.

Where you are right however is that 70-80 lbs above the front wheels is a big deal, who this hurts however is the KA powered S13-14 and NOT the same LS1 powered car.

Now back to the core of this chat, the VQ35 in a S13 or S14. I feel the option is valid and may in fact split the difference between a Ka-T and LS1. It is all aluminum as well and may weigh less than an LS1. The overall cost of this swap seems very reasonable due to low volume (of these swaps to date) and tons and tons of the motors laying around make this a great option. Now the tranny is bigger but much like the LS1 swap who cares as long as the overall weight is close or lower and with the mass being low and centered its all gravy.

So which swap is best for you? Who knows. It will as many point out depend on your goals and likes. I for one am leaning to an LS1 swap but its early on and I have so many things to do to my car prior to getting to that point.

Now of course if Fred starts working on an LS1 kit as well I may speed up my time line seeing as I would love to see multiple folks offer these kits and Fred has shown to be a good fella and one who may like to try new things and ideas.

[Broaner]

Yes modreadz, tranny bolts up with no modification AFTER the RWD upper oil pan is bolted on.

If the Elise Jaun is 468lbs then the VQ is fully 100lbs lighter.

[2k1MaxGLE]

Originally Posted by modreadz

^ I agree. Drifting takes talent as any other sort of motorsport. It's just different.

Question: Someone has to 100% confirm this with me and I must hear it. Does the 350z transmission mate up with the Maxima motor. Is there a special adapter plate that must be used. I Just find it hard that they work together.

Z tranny will work....I think there is a difference in motor mount location and placement between the two (maxima vs. Z engine) though....

I also agree and Im not even a drifting fan. Drifting takes a lot of skill and talent, you cant just get out there and do it perfectly the first try. I wouldnt even attempt it to tell ya the truth unless I had a huge completely empty parking lot or something to screw around in. As for the money I just dont see spending that much on a car and then all but destroying it drifting. All in all I love to watch drifting and I do agree it takes a ton of skill and talent. Ive also seen a guy with an old school NA RX7 drift through an autozone parking lot and drift that biatch into a parking space PERFECTLY....thats some damn skill if you ask me....