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Thread: OMG, how many gears is too many?

  1. #1

    OMG, how many gears is too many?


    Honda Patents 11-Speed Automatic Transmission



    You've heard about nine-speed dual-clutch transmissions and even 10-speed automatics, but how about an 11-speed triple-clutch gearbox?


    That's what Honda Motor Co. may have in store, according to a recent patent filing.


    The 11-speed would be a world's first and would achieve better fuel economy and faster shifting response, Honda said in a filing with the Japan Patent Office.


    On paper, the proposed transmission features 11 speeds and three clutches. Adding the third clutch helps reduce a drop in torque during a gear change, according to the filing, which the patent office made public this year after its December 2014 filing.


    Adding the extra gears helps deliver better fuel efficiency, Honda says.


    The design also cuts interference between the transmission's input shafts, allowing them to have smaller diameters. That, in turn, allows a smaller, lighter transmission.


    It is unclear when or how Honda might deploy the new gearbox.


    "How to use this technology has not been decided yet," a Honda spokeswoman said, adding that the company was still considering what model might need to employ an 11-speed triple-clutch transmission. "It is uncertain at the moment."


    Honda is an outlier among Japanese automakers in using dual-clutch transmissions, which are touted for improving fuel efficiency while keeping a more direct acceleration feel. Japanese automakers typically stick with traditional automatics or continuously variable transmissions.


    Honda uses a seven-speed double-clutch transmission in the hybrid versions of the HR-V subcompact crossover and Fit subcompact sold in Japan. A version of the Acura RLX sedan gets a seven-speed double-clutch, while the Acura TLX sedan uses an eight-speed. Meanwhile, the redesigned NSX sports car boasts a nine-speed double-clutch transmission.


    SOURCE: http://www.carprousa.com






    If someone blows up a school with a bomb they go after the bomber ... if someone shoots up a school they go after the gun.

    A privilege is just a right that has been taken away by government.

    Political correctness is cowardice wrapped in a lie.
    ________________________________

    2013 Acura RDX Tech, 30% tints, hardwired Escort 8500 X50

    2011 Infiniti M56, 30% ceramic tint, hard-wired Escort 8500 X50, LED cabin and trunk lighting - traded!


  2. #2
    Senior Administrator palmerwmd's Avatar
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    Just like with Bicycles.. Back in the day as akid I always felt a 5 or 6 speed overed me enough gears..
    but a 12 speed was simply cooler....
    But then I had many gears I never really used..
    "In the end we all just play the roles given us... Sometimes they dont fit so well,... but I guess we make do."

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  3. #3
    My concern as always is cost to repair. Seems great but you now just added more parts and cost when it comes time to repair it. Repairing it will happen. Question is will it cost more to repair than the car is worth. But for OWNER #1, seems cool.

  4. #4
    It'll be like always when a new transmission comes out. It'll be very expensive to repair for a few years, but then when everyone is driving and servicing one, the cost will go down. I'm perfectly happy with my ancient 5-speed automatics though, because I am enjoying low maintenance costs too much.

  5. #5
    I had a 9-speed in my Acura TLX, and it was too many gears ... it could get tangled up in its own "feet" when I needed a quick downshift from a high gear, or when slowing to 15-20 mph and needing a quick spurt of power.

    But that 9th gear was so high that i got some awesome highway mileage.

    That said, the old-timey 6-speed in my Optima still seems like about the right number of cogs.
    If someone blows up a school with a bomb they go after the bomber ... if someone shoots up a school they go after the gun.

    A privilege is just a right that has been taken away by government.

    Political correctness is cowardice wrapped in a lie.
    ________________________________

    2013 Acura RDX Tech, 30% tints, hardwired Escort 8500 X50

    2011 Infiniti M56, 30% ceramic tint, hard-wired Escort 8500 X50, LED cabin and trunk lighting - traded!


  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JayG35 View Post
    It'll be like always when a new transmission comes out. It'll be very expensive to repair for a few years, but then when everyone is driving and servicing one, the cost will go down. I'm perfectly happy with my ancient 5-speed automatics though, because I am enjoying low maintenance costs too much.
    Maybe. I promise you will see some bad things happening in the used car market. Manufactures could care less. They want you to buy a new one. Regulations will see to it. If the used car folks have any power, I'm yet to see it. Otherwise, buy the new car, after a few years the car is not affordable and will end up next to your piece of junk refrigerator.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Indemand View Post
    Maybe. I promise you will see some bad things happening in the used car market. Manufactures could care less. They want you to buy a new one. Regulations will see to it. If the used car folks have any power, I'm yet to see it. Otherwise, buy the new car, after a few years the car is not affordable and will end up next to your piece of junk refrigerator.
    The ever-incresing reliability statistics say otherwise. Today's worst models are about as reliable as a Lexus from 20 years ago. This is a fact that can be verified in problems per 100 cars (or per car) which can be looked up. Things have gotten so good that people piss and moan about their touch screen being laggy or their phone not syncing properly. I remember the days when a new car was "junk" if it had major power train issues or rust right from the factory.

    I think that the used car folks have plenty of power. I've just spent the past couple years in $75,000 worth of automobiles going by their original MSRP. I paid less than 10 grand combined for them.

    Everything is all-aluminum now. Cars from this decade are never going to rust. Once battery prices go down and everything shifts to EV, as Germany seems hell bent on making happen in the next 14 years, cars will be stupidly low-maintenance. Most of those fluids and moving parts that you have to lube an maintain now? Gone. Rust? Gone. Transmission service? Gone. And on and on. Nissan themselves pointed to many of these advantages in their marketing for the Leaf.
    Last edited by JayG35; 10-12-2016 at 03:33 AM.

  8. #8
    JayG, not exactly what I'm saying. Remember that old avocado green appliance your parents might have owned in the 70's. Looked like crap but got replaced because it didn't look right anymore. Today's appliances will be in the junkyard before they get to look bad. With cars, especially at the low end are exactly the same, ie, disposable. They will have zero value when the price of the parts are no longer worth the price of the car. Most cars sold qualify. But those with the highest tech or the "greenest cars" will get there first. We are setting this up so people will not be able to afford a used car. We will not be able to afford to fix them based on current trends. Now I have no idea what the aftermarket holds in store but manufactures only care about about selling you a new one. Keeping the old one, well, cost prohibitive. I guess we shall see. I just know I'm not buying a 10 year old Volt with a $3K value and a guarantee you need a $3K to $7K battery (just a guess here, don't kill me. It's the point that counts).

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Indemand View Post
    JayG, not exactly what I'm saying. Remember that old avocado green appliance your parents might have owned in the 70's. Looked like crap but got replaced because it didn't look right anymore. Today's appliances will be in the junkyard before they get to look bad. With cars, especially at the low end are exactly the same, ie, disposable. They will have zero value when the price of the parts are no longer worth the price of the car. Most cars sold qualify. But those with the highest tech or the "greenest cars" will get there first. We are setting this up so people will not be able to afford a used car. We will not be able to afford to fix them based on current trends. Now I have no idea what the aftermarket holds in store but manufactures only care about about selling you a new one. Keeping the old one, well, cost prohibitive. I guess we shall see. I just know I'm not buying a 10 year old Volt with a $3K value and a guarantee you need a $3K to $7K battery (just a guess here, don't kill me. It's the point that counts).
    The old appliances from the 70s were not replaced because they looked "like crap." We had a couple of them when I was a kid, and I can tell you that I was still quite fond of their looks even in the late 80s. They were replaced because they ran like crap, got 10 mpg, and rusted to powder by the time they were 10 years old. Does that happen with today's cars that you appear to be admonishing?

    Regarding the price of parts outstripping the value of a car: that has gone on since the dawn of this industry. What you really need to ask yourself is, does the price of my repairs exceed the price to finance a new car (or purchase a similar used one?). With the old 5-series, it was break-even for me, so I went to a generation of Altima that I knew first-hand would cost less to maintain than a dog.

    Do you have proof that a Volt battery pack will require a $7k replacement in 10 years, or is this just conjecture?

  10. #10
    We obviously disagree. What would you rather work on. A car from the 70's or a car from today. All I'm saying is all the parts we have added to cars come at a price. A price you will need to pay. And yes, it does come down to whether or not it will be cheaper to finance new or repair old. This equation is leading more and more to buying new and eliminating the used car market. They won't be worth fixing. And I'm only basing this on today, not what might be in 10 years.

    Appliances made today are junk, mostly. Even if you go high end they look nice but they suck. Walmart sucks. Crap made in China sucks. Clothes suck. Toasters suck. All cheap. All suck.

    Cars, better than ever. Costs suck. Wherever you see **** it equals S*U*C*K*.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Indemand View Post
    We obviously disagree. What would you rather work on. A car from the 70's or a car from today. All I'm saying is all the parts we have added to cars come at a price. A price you will need to pay. And yes, it does come down to whether or not it will be cheaper to finance new or repair old. This equation is leading more and more to buying new and eliminating the used car market. They won't be worth fixing. And I'm only basing this on today, not what might be in 10 years.

    Appliances made today are junk, mostly. Even if you go high end they look nice but they suck. Walmart sucks. Crap made in China sucks. Clothes suck. Toasters suck. All cheap. All suck.

    Cars, better than ever. Costs suck. Wherever you see **** it equals S*U*C*K*.
    I don't know what you're referring to, but I personally think we're seeing some of the most reliable and best made products we've ever had. Whether it's TV's or refrigerators or tennis shoes, my experience is that technology and manufacturing processes have resulted in the best products in my lifetime. And cars are certainly no exception.

    Now, can you find junk out there in the marketplace? Sure, just like you've always been able to find junk. But even the foreign stuff is getting to be surprisingly good quality, unless you just buy the dollar-store bargain-basement stuff. Back when I was a pup, anything that came from Japan was cheap junk, cars included, but now Japanese products are regarded as some of the highest-quality stuff out there. And then it was China, and now China is becoming a manufacturing powerhouse, too, thanks to capitalism.

    It's all a factor of price. Pay a junk price and you'll probably get junk. Pay a quality price and you'll probably get quality goods. And it's really always been that way, hasn't it?
    If someone blows up a school with a bomb they go after the bomber ... if someone shoots up a school they go after the gun.

    A privilege is just a right that has been taken away by government.

    Political correctness is cowardice wrapped in a lie.
    ________________________________

    2013 Acura RDX Tech, 30% tints, hardwired Escort 8500 X50

    2011 Infiniti M56, 30% ceramic tint, hard-wired Escort 8500 X50, LED cabin and trunk lighting - traded!


  12. #12
    MikeTX, what I'm referring to is mostly relates to a trend of non-fixable cars in the future. Some now. Also relates to appliances. The old ones had zero features but were tanks. The new ones with extra electronics are cost prohibitive to fix. We have asked for much. But can we afford to pay for it?

    My bad example to state, is one of many, is going through 3 bad, over the stove microwaves in 6 years. You can only drill so many holes in the cabinet and still have one. They cost too much to fix. I can fix them but no one sells the parts at a reasonable price.

    Getting back to cars. We have added so much to these in the past several years they will be expensive to fix. So instead you will buy a new car. Cars are becoming disposable. Does this effect me or you? Probably not. So there exists a fading used car market which now has to deal with emissions and prohibitive costs. Started with Cash for Clunkers and I'm not sure this was just the beginning. I just don't see paying OEM part pricing for most car repairs.

    The used car market will adapt. But only to their advantage. I just see a serious problem on the horizon as many today can't afford a new car and will no longer be able to afford used. Those who could afford used will have minimal choice. The conspiracy theorist in me says this is by design. The corruption between corporate and government will end the used car market.

    Everything is disposable. Buy a junkyard.

  13. #13
    I think I see what you mean. There are a lot of disposable products out there, but in my opinion they're mostly in response to demand for low prices.

    I honestly don't see any collusion between government and corporations to manufacture products that can't be economically fixed. If anything, government and corporations (business in general) are at war with each other.

    You're right that cars, like a lot of other things, have become so complex that you and I can't work on them anymore. And neither can many mechanics! But seriously, cars used to be considered junk at 100,000 miles, if they made it that far. Now even a lowly Sentra will do 150,000 without breaking a sweat, and many cars will do 200,000 or more without major repairs. The Acura dealership I worked for last year is using that to their advantage by actually buying up used cars to turn around at higher profit than their new cars. They can do that precisely because today's used cars still have a lot of life left in them, whereas 10-15 years ago they couldn't because those cars would be worn out!
    If someone blows up a school with a bomb they go after the bomber ... if someone shoots up a school they go after the gun.

    A privilege is just a right that has been taken away by government.

    Political correctness is cowardice wrapped in a lie.
    ________________________________

    2013 Acura RDX Tech, 30% tints, hardwired Escort 8500 X50

    2011 Infiniti M56, 30% ceramic tint, hard-wired Escort 8500 X50, LED cabin and trunk lighting - traded!


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