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Thread: GM joins Ford and Chrysler in abandoning the car market

  1. #1

    GM joins Ford and Chrysler in abandoning the car market

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...vehicle-models

    Well, not entirely leaving the car market, but ceasing production of 6 of its top car models - the Cadillac CT6 and XTS, Chevrolet Impala, Cruze and Volt, and the Buick LaCrosse.

    I continue to believe this is short-sighted and that they will all three be in deep doo-doo when the SUV and truck craze peters out. Re-tooling and building manufacturing facilities to ramp up car production will be expensive and time-consuming, and will leave them so far behind the competition that it will take years to ever catch up. The foreign makes have to be happy the Big Three are leaving, though, since that means they get free rein to work the U. S. market.

    In my opinion, GM's surrender is a direct result of sub-par quality and high prices driven by union contracts and pension benefits, and the same is probably true of Ford and Chrysler, although in Chrysler's case it was also a matter of riding the retro theme into the ground. If it weren't for aging guys with big-engine middle age crises and government bailouts, Chrysler would have bitten it a long time ago.
    If someone blows up a school with a bomb they go after the bomber ... if someone shoots up a school they go after the gun.

    A privilege is just a right that has been taken away by government.

    Political correctness is cowardice wrapped in a lie.
    ________________________________

    2013 Acura RDX Tech, 30% tints, hardwired Escort 8500 X50

    2011 Infiniti M56, 30% ceramic tint, hard-wired Escort 8500 X50, LED cabin and trunk lighting - traded!


  2. #2
    Senior Administrator palmerwmd's Avatar
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    Mike

    as usual your analysis is spot on.

    The union system make labor expensive enough that they can only do well with high margin vehicles. That's SUVs and pickups since the human brain seems to perceive larger things (and therefore vehicles) as deserving of more $$.

    (And to a point they do, more materials etc)

    So making a competitive small car that still produces a good margin for the company is difficult, (though I thought he Ford Fusion was real nice one of the few non Nissans I really like, very nice handling direct steering and the variable gauges in the upper end models are both functional and attractive and this is easier for a companies such as Nissan, Toyota and Honda who make cars here with US labor that's non union.
    "In the end we all just play the roles given us... Sometimes they dont fit so well,... but I guess we make do."

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  3. #3
    I agree with everything said. I think manufacturers, more so American, are feeding this whole SUV/CUV craze because of the higher profit margins they can get on those over cars. I hope the Japanese and Korean continue to build cars. There is a lot of fresh available market share up for grabs once all these cars leave the market.
    My Opin.

    Former: 2007 Nissan Altima 3.5SE Sedan 6MT [Totaled :( ]
    Current: 2013 Infiniti G37S 6MT Sedan

  4. #4
    Senior Administrator palmerwmd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NissLover View Post
    I agree with everything said. I think manufacturers, more so American, are feeding this whole SUV/CUV craze because of the higher profit margins they can get on those over cars. I hope the Japanese and Korean continue to build cars. There is a lot of fresh available market share up for grabs once all these cars leave the market.
    Yes Nissan/Honda/Toyota and their respective luxury Divisions will live long and prosper.
    "In the end we all just play the roles given us... Sometimes they dont fit so well,... but I guess we make do."

    Dont forget MultiMedia forums!!
    http://www.freshalloy.com/forumdisplay.php/55-Multi-Media-Forum

    2x91,92,94 Q45s, 2x 350Z, 1x 240SX w/ SR20DET, 1x Sentra SER SPEC-V, 2k2 Maxima, 2x03 G35, 09 Maxima, 2k2 Maxima, 2015 XTerra, 2005 Xterra, 2012 Pathfinder,

  5. #5
    Yet do not forget about crazy CEO and executive salaries. Just put this in your equation somewhere. The rest remains true. Marketing is on safety and tech.

    I think the idea that people who do a basic job need little pay has cost us dearly. No one wants to work anymore because of the total lack of respect for basics. No person is much better than any other person. Education gets you an upgrade but only to a degree. I like hard workers more. Ruck people and love corporations. Great thinking.

    We should continue to support a welfare system where people don't have to work for a living and do better than a job at Walmart, etc.

    It's too bad they have to put all this safety tech into vehicles so texter's wont run into the vehicle in front of them.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_TX View Post
    If it weren't for aging guys with big-engine middle age crises and government bailouts, Chrysler would have bitten it a long time ago.
    HEY - let's not get personal !

    You are correct about the quality tho, my Mustang was a POS and FORD had to buy it back. 3 years later & guys are still complaining about the same issue - that's just crap !

    GM has had the same quality issues for decades and a lot has to do with the unions and certain plants. All the ones they are planning to close were notorious for poor QC going back to when I worked for them in the late 80's. The only surprise is that it's taken this long to shutter them.

    And yeah, there are niggling issues with my FCA products as well (then again my last 2 Infiniti's had irritating issues) - but the intoxicating power & all important and hard to quantify 'fun to drive' factor has me looking the other way
    2016 Challenger Hellcat, Max Steel/Blk - A8 trans, Navi, C Fiber Stripes
    2018 Durango R/T, Vice White/Blk, Tow, Blacktop pkg, Perf Tires
    2017 Honda Accord Touring V6, Basque Red Pearl/Ivory

    GONE:
    2003.5 G35s Caribbean Blue - Prem, Wood, Spoiler
    2009 G37 Vert Athens Blue/Bone - Prem, Sport, Nav
    2016 Mustang GT Prem, Guard/Ebony - Roush SC +++ ** Lmn Law 1200 mi
    2009 M45s Obsidian/Graphite - Sport, Tech, Adv Tech, Wood, Spoiler
    2007 Titan LE Crew Deep Water Blue
    2002 Q45s Desert Platinum

  7. #7
    After the quality issues and product size swings in the 1970s and 1980s, nobody will spend top dollar anymore for anything GM produces. A number of those models they are cutting (particularly the Impala and LaCrosse) are pretty decent vehicles, but not particularly strong in the class of large sedans (I still prefer Avalon and Maxima, and many large sedan buyers still prefer the 300 and Charger) and the price stickers keep going up.

    I'd feel bad for Detroit, but a couple of Infiniti dealers on the other side of Lake Michigan recently went lights out, so we have bigger problems. Also, not sure what's going on at Nissan post-Ghosn.
    "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses." They're not gonna catch us. We're on a Mission from God. Hit it.

    From the book of 1 Avalonians: Thou shalt not park a Nissan Maxima in thine driveway and thou shalt not have any gods before Toyotathon.

  8. #8
    It was only a matter of time before Infiniti started showing signs of failure. Are Infiniti or Genesis even going to be around in 5 years? I cannot think of two luxury brands that have worse management and more boneheaded product development decisions (Genesis has no SUVS (or dealers!), Infiniti has ALL SUVs and no prestige cars. LUL?). FFS they are both even worse than Cadillac or Lincoln at this point!

    As far as GM goes, PHUCK them. Anyone who kills sedans outright in this time and era gets a big finger salute from me. The most egregious offense here is the canning of the CT6-- it was priced nearly as high as the S-class and 7-series and outselling both COMBINED. And it was an excellent car, driving much like an old BMW E38 7-series. They were about to introduce a twin-turbo V8 CT6-V. God knows if that car ever makes it to market or if it gets Eau Rouge/Black S-ed (read: cancelled). Who knows if they will even release the much-hyped CT4 and CT5 (ATS and CTS replacements) at this point.

    GM's problem always was incompetent upper management which is ALWAYS rewarded handsomely for poor results. You can only go so far blaming unions (i.e., the working class) when the fish rots from the head in reality. German automakers have worked with strong unions for thousands of years and their cars don't suck and always sell. Don't tell that to the Big Three though. American ignorance is bliss. Good to know that the General's latest CEO is as clueless as their last dozen or so.

    GM is going to fail again and I hope that the next President tells them to get bent. No more bailouts. Let firms that suck go extinct. This isn't preschool.

    At least Nissan got rid of Crooked Ghosn. Maybe now Japan will take over Infiniti and make it less of a joke? One can only hope.
    Last edited by M_TYPE_X; 12-02-2018 at 01:53 AM. Reason: Will respond below with quote

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by JayG35 View Post
    It was only a matter of time before Infiniti started showing signs of failure. Are Infiniti or Genesis even going to be around in 5 years? I cannot think of two luxury brands that have worse management and more boneheaded product development decisions (Genesis has no SUVS (or dealers!), Infiniti has ALL SUVs and no prestige cars. LUL?). FFS they are both even worse than Cadillac or Lincoln at this point!

    As far as GM goes, PHUCK them. Anyone who kills sedans outright in this time and era gets a big finger salute from me. The most egregious offense here is the canning of the CT6-- it was priced nearly as high as the S-class and 7-series and outselling both COMBINED. And it was an excellent car, driving much like an old BMW E38 7-series. They were about to introduce a twin-turbo V8 CT6-V. God knows if that car ever makes it to market or if it gets Eau Rouge/Black S-ed (read: cancelled). Who knows if they will even release the much-hyped CT4 and CT5 (ATS and CTS replacements) at this point.

    GM's problem always was incompetent upper management which is ALWAYS rewarded handsomely for poor results. You can only go so far blaming unions (i.e., the working class) when the fish rots from the head in reality. German automakers have worked with strong unions for thousands of years and their cars don't suck and always sell. Don't tell that to the Big Three though. American ignorance is bliss. Good to know that the General's latest CEO is as clueless as their last dozen or so.

    GM is going to fail again and I hope that the next President tells them to get bent. No more bailouts. Let firms that suck go extinct. This isn't preschool.

    At least Nissan got rid of Crooked Ghosn. Maybe now Japan will take over Infiniti and make it less of a joke? One can only hope.


    I was at GM (supplier/consultant) between 2009 and 2013. We could talk all day about it. They do have this tendency to redesign products and then not market them effectively. When GM makes a product that's actually nice, watch out, they won't market it properly and they will probably be overly optimistic on pricing. Also, GM is great at mistiming the market ... so they brought out new sedans when the market asked for CUVs. Just watch, Cadillac will get the crossovers it needs right when the market shifts back to passenger sedans.

    I don't see that many newer Infiniti Q70, Lexus GX, or Acura RLX on the roads. I don't want the Japanese lux brands to discontinue the higher-buck sedans, but where do they sell? Japan? I think I spotted a redesigned Lexus LS on the road near Milwaukee today.

    I need to drive a Q50/Q60, but am leaning towards a TLX with V6 and AWD as next car. TSX will go to wife.
    My old man has a loaded TLX with V6 and the full tech package. He likes some of the features, but not all. I actually tried to steer him towards a Maxima or Avalon (gasp! yes), but Acura has been a pretty decent previous ownership experience.
    "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we've got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing sunglasses." They're not gonna catch us. We're on a Mission from God. Hit it.

    From the book of 1 Avalonians: Thou shalt not park a Nissan Maxima in thine driveway and thou shalt not have any gods before Toyotathon.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by M_TYPE_X View Post
    I was at GM (supplier/consultant) between 2009 and 2013. We could talk all day about it. They do have this tendency to redesign products and then not market them effectively. When GM makes a product that's actually nice, watch out, they won't market it properly and they will probably be overly optimistic on pricing. Also, GM is great at mistiming the market ... so they brought out new sedans when the market asked for CUVs. Just watch, Cadillac will get the crossovers it needs right when the market shifts back to passenger sedans.

    I don't see that many newer Infiniti Q70, Lexus GX, or Acura RLX on the roads. I don't want the Japanese lux brands to discontinue the higher-buck sedans, but where do they sell? Japan? I think I spotted a redesigned Lexus LS on the road near Milwaukee today.

    I need to drive a Q50/Q60, but am leaning towards a TLX with V6 and AWD as next car. TSX will go to wife.
    My old man has a loaded TLX with V6 and the full tech package. He likes some of the features, but not all. I actually tried to steer him towards a Maxima or Avalon (gasp! yes), but Acura has been a pretty decent previous ownership experience.
    Interesting perspective from inside GM.

    To say the Q70 sells in the hundreds each month, I see quite a bit of them here in Houston. But Houston overall seems to be a strong market in general for Infiniti. The GS is a common site as well. But RLX is a very rare sight. I actually did see the refreshed one on the road last week.

    At least test drive the Q50. Lol. I saw a 2018 Red Sport in red last week, and to say the car has been around for a while now, I admittedly found myself gawking at the thing. Maybe it was the color, but it was stunning!
    Last edited by NissLover; 12-03-2018 at 11:11 AM.
    My Opin.

    Former: 2007 Nissan Altima 3.5SE Sedan 6MT [Totaled :( ]
    Current: 2013 Infiniti G37S 6MT Sedan

  11. #11
    What I generally see with GM products vs many others is a high sticker and high depreciation. They are now making some decent vehicles but you have to pay the right price. You see $10K off a bunch from factory. They are hopeful and unfair generally.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
    HEY - let's not get personal !

    You are correct about the quality tho, my Mustang was a POS and FORD had to buy it back. 3 years later & guys are still complaining about the same issue - that's just crap !

    GM has had the same quality issues for decades and a lot has to do with the unions and certain plants. All the ones they are planning to close were notorious for poor QC going back to when I worked for them in the late 80's. The only surprise is that it's taken this long to shutter them.

    And yeah, there are niggling issues with my FCA products as well (then again my last 2 Infiniti's had irritating issues) - but the intoxicating power & all important and hard to quantify 'fun to drive' factor has me looking the other way
    I have to admit I thought of you when I penned that. Lol.

    But i still support your presidential bid.
    If someone blows up a school with a bomb they go after the bomber ... if someone shoots up a school they go after the gun.

    A privilege is just a right that has been taken away by government.

    Political correctness is cowardice wrapped in a lie.
    ________________________________

    2013 Acura RDX Tech, 30% tints, hardwired Escort 8500 X50

    2011 Infiniti M56, 30% ceramic tint, hard-wired Escort 8500 X50, LED cabin and trunk lighting - traded!


  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by M_TYPE_X View Post
    I was at GM (supplier/consultant) between 2009 and 2013. We could talk all day about it. They do have this tendency to redesign products and then not market them effectively. When GM makes a product that's actually nice, watch out, they won't market it properly and they will probably be overly optimistic on pricing. Also, GM is great at mistiming the market ... so they brought out new sedans when the market asked for CUVs. Just watch, Cadillac will get the crossovers it needs right when the market shifts back to passenger sedans.

    I don't see that many newer Infiniti Q70, Lexus GX, or Acura RLX on the roads. I don't want the Japanese lux brands to discontinue the higher-buck sedans, but where do they sell? Japan? I think I spotted a redesigned Lexus LS on the road near Milwaukee today.

    I need to drive a Q50/Q60, but am leaning towards a TLX with V6 and AWD as next car. TSX will go to wife.
    My old man has a loaded TLX with V6 and the full tech package. He likes some of the features, but not all. I actually tried to steer him towards a Maxima or Avalon (gasp! yes), but Acura has been a pretty decent previous ownership experience.
    Those higher Japanese luxury sedans don't sell because the manufacturers are too lazy and cheap to make them competitive. The only one that sells decently, particularly when its high-ish price is accounted for, is the LS500 (900 sold in November, but still a small fry compared to the S-class at 1,600).

    I mean one would have to be blind to not see the same problems that have plagued the Detroit big-three setting in with Japan's three. At least Toyota/Lexus have not completely gutted quality and reliability yet (though Scion and the joint sports car with Subaru the FR-S were pretty awful).

    About a decade ago when Infiniti started stagnating, and then Lexus strangely followed suit, I concluded that the Asian automakers just don't have their hearts in it to make world-class premium vehicles. It's been 30 years since they entered the market, and only on a precious few occasions have they flirted with true success. Even Lexus is a sales joke anywhere outside the US market.

    Don't expect Infiniti, Acura, or Lexus to be competitive with the German brands any time soon. In fact, Infiniti and Acura may not even exist much longer. If Genesis goes under thanks to its horrific mismanagement, I expect the lesser Japanese lux brands to follow. Right now the Honda Accord 2.0T and Pilot really encroach upon Acura so that brand could quite easily be consolidated back into Honda. Same goes for Infiniti: everything going forward is going to be FWD, CVT, CUV, and 90% of production being a 4-cylinder powertrain. Why isn't this ISHT being sold at Nissan dealers?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_TX View Post
    I have to admit I thought of you when I penned that. Lol.

    But i still support your presidential bid.
    In 2020 I will need every vote !!

    It appears I will be running against that socialist Gillium (the corrupt, gun hating, illegal immigrant loving, Medicare for all, tax loving radical far left nut job).
    He has big money backing from some well heeled far left players on the west coast including Soros and was able to convince 49% of my fellow Floridians to vote for him !!
    2016 Challenger Hellcat, Max Steel/Blk - A8 trans, Navi, C Fiber Stripes
    2018 Durango R/T, Vice White/Blk, Tow, Blacktop pkg, Perf Tires
    2017 Honda Accord Touring V6, Basque Red Pearl/Ivory

    GONE:
    2003.5 G35s Caribbean Blue - Prem, Wood, Spoiler
    2009 G37 Vert Athens Blue/Bone - Prem, Sport, Nav
    2016 Mustang GT Prem, Guard/Ebony - Roush SC +++ ** Lmn Law 1200 mi
    2009 M45s Obsidian/Graphite - Sport, Tech, Adv Tech, Wood, Spoiler
    2007 Titan LE Crew Deep Water Blue
    2002 Q45s Desert Platinum

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeD View Post
    In 2020 I will need every vote !!

    It appears I will be running against that socialist Gillium (the corrupt, gun hating, illegal immigrant loving, Medicare for all, tax loving radical far left nut job).
    He has big money backing from some well heeled far left players on the west coast including Soros and was able to convince 49% of my fellow Floridians to vote for him !!
    So you're running as a conspiracy theorist/ talk radio regurgitator?

    You'll get your @$$ kicked by tRump.

    He's had that market cornered since 2008.

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